Most incompetent fantasy world conflicts ...

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-08-29 08:20pm

Is anyone?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-29 09:21pm

SirNitram wrote:
As a plan it was fine: Lure it in, distract it, then blast it with everything they had. The plan also worked: Sin came to it's Spawn(Though they obviously didn't think the agitated Spawn would fuse!). The cavalry did, indeed, delay Sin. And the heavy artillery at least gave it pause(Indeed, the giant lightning tower had nearly collapse Sin's shield when Sin decided to blast it).

I'd more put it down to bad Intel on Sin's durability, and not enough hardware.

Does this mean that an Eisenhower-style nuclear-equipped 50s military could destroy Sin? *tries to look innocent*

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-29 09:23pm

Um, that's hardly fantasy, Marina

::fills Marina's head with visions of AB-36s wandering around::

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-29 09:27pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
As a plan it was fine: Lure it in, distract it, then blast it with everything they had. The plan also worked: Sin came to it's Spawn(Though they obviously didn't think the agitated Spawn would fuse!). The cavalry did, indeed, delay Sin. And the heavy artillery at least gave it pause(Indeed, the giant lightning tower had nearly collapse Sin's shield when Sin decided to blast it).

I'd more put it down to bad Intel on Sin's durability, and not enough hardware.
Does this mean that an Eisenhower-style nuclear-equipped 50s military could destroy Sin? *tries to look innocent*

Probably.

Wouldn't do shit to Yu Yevon, but.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-08-29 11:05pm

SirNitram wrote:

Wouldn't do shit to Yu Yevon, but.

Indeed, any critter that looks like the Venom insignia MUST be invincible

That was the lamest FF boss fight ever, too

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-29 11:09pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
SirNitram wrote:

Wouldn't do shit to Yu Yevon, but.
Indeed, any critter that looks like the Venom insignia MUST be invincible

That was the lamest FF boss fight ever, too

The 'Can't die' thing was annoying.. If it actually hit you hard and you didn't regenerate, it might be scary.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-30 03:12am

consequences wrote:Yup

Weren't they intentionally incompetent??

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-08-30 05:34am

As far as the Aiel climbing walls *Erm can I inform the folks on top of the walls about BOILING OIL*?

hell it would be fun. I wonder what thier reaction to greek fire would be?

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-08-30 08:13am

Xander/Harmony

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-30 09:32am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
consequences wrote:Yup
Weren't they intentionally incompetent??

True, but how many heros have gutted themselves on their own shoes?

How many heroic leads have lead an army of four warbadgers and a cranky cub scout to war?

How many heroic leaders have made a speech causing their entire army to book it for the hills?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-08-30 10:14am

The Battle Of Helms Deep from The Two Towers.

Really, hear me out. Your in a country where the men are mostly swordsmen on horseback. You have very little in the way of archers. You have a heavily armed but badly experienced army heading your way. What do you do? Back into a corner and wait it out. Only at the end when all looked to be lost did Theoden play to his strengths and charge out. Theoden deserved to die for his stupidity.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2003-08-30 10:44am

Lord Pounder wrote:The Battle Of Helms Deep from The Two Towers.

Really, hear me out. Your in a country where the men are mostly swordsmen on horseback. You have very little in the way of archers. You have a heavily armed but badly experienced army heading your way. What do you do? Back into a corner and wait it out. Only at the end when all looked to be lost did Theoden play to his strengths and charge out. Theoden deserved to die for his stupidity.

Are you talking about the movie battle of the book battle?

In the movie, if Theoden charged out, his little band of warriors would be slaughtered mercilessly. He was outnumbered way too badly to do anything to the Uruk-Hai army, and he had civilians to protect. What was he supposed to do, have a battle royale out in the open? Make hit-and-run attacks with women and children on his back?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-30 01:31pm

Hmm... how better odds did Theoden have in the book? It's a damn long time ago since I last read LoTR.

Micheal Ryans, Beta pilot · Post by **Micheal Ryans, Beta pilot** » 2003-08-30 01:37pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Hmm... how better odds did Theoden have in the book? It's a damn long time ago since I last read LoTR.

Well, IIRC, he had about a thousand troops in the book, but thats all I remember. I think the setup of Helm's Deep was different as well.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-08-30 01:42pm

The Helm's Deep setup was different in the book, and while the Orcs did have explosives provided by Saruman, they weren't obvious about placing them.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-08-30 01:54pm

I just happen to feel that putting your back to a wall when your an army used to sward fighting on horseback is a bad thing. An army should play to it's strengths, Theoden didn't do that, instead he pulled back and pulled back untill he had no choice.

Oh aye i was talking about the movie battle. It's been a while since i read the books so the movie is fresher in my mind

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2003-08-30 02:15pm

Lord Pounder wrote:I just happen to feel that putting your back to a wall when your an army used to sward fighting on horseback is a bad thing. An army should play to it's strengths, Theoden didn't do that, instead he pulled back and pulled back untill he had no choice.

Oh aye i was talking about the movie battle. It's been a while since i read the books so the movie is fresher in my mind

It wouldn't do him a lot of good to attack with what he had and get slaughtered, now would it? Whatever your army's strenghts are, there are limits you can't surpass.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2003-08-30 06:34pm

PeZook wrote:Are you talking about the movie battle of the book battle?

In the movie, if Theoden charged out, his little band of warriors would be slaughtered mercilessly. He was outnumbered way too badly to do anything to the Uruk-Hai army, and he had civilians to protect. What was he supposed to do, have a battle royale out in the open? Make hit-and-run attacks with women and children on his back?

In the book Theoden's actions were justified. First off, and most importantly in my viewpoint, he sent the noncombatants SOMEWHERE ELSE! It drives me nuts the way movie Theoden handled it.

Once he had removed the noncombatants he rode out with his army in an attempt to engage the Orc army moving through his territories. IIRC he discovered that he was hopelessly outnumbered, but despite their numbers the Orcs were moving too quickly for him to attempt to try Fabian tactics. As a result he drew back to Helm's Deep, where they had successfully held off attacks before.

Again this is all based on IIRC.

The movie battle was horrible to watch. One of the worst fantasy battles I can think of.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-08-30 06:46pm

Lord Pounder wrote:I just happen to feel that putting your back to a wall when your an army used to sward fighting on horseback is a bad thing. An army should play to it's strengths, Theoden didn't do that, instead he pulled back and pulled back untill he had no choice.

Oh aye i was talking about the movie battle. It's been a while since i read the books so the movie is fresher in my mind

The movie battle is one of the reasons why I dislike that movie.

In the book, Theoden was hpelessly outnumbered. He did ride out to battle, but only to discover that his forces stand no chance, and decided that the walls of Helm's deep would give him a better chance of survival.

Also, he was waiting for reinforcements from Westfold (IIRC).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2003-08-30 06:51pm

Crom wrote: In the book Theoden's actions were justified. First off, and most importantly in my viewpoint, he sent the noncombatants SOMEWHERE ELSE! It drives me nuts the way movie Theoden handled it.

And what if the orcs decided to go after civvies? Saruman had spies everywhere, and women and children sure as hell can't march as fast as the uruk-hai. Theoden couldn't possibly hope to defend his civilians if they were attacked oh, say, by a horde of marauding Warg riders?

Which was precisely what happened in the movie, by the way. If Theoden wasn't with his people, they'd get slaughtered by the Warg riders. If he sent them the opposite way, the Warg riders could have simply went after the column instead of engaging the Rohirrim.

Once he had removed the noncombatants he rode out with his army in an attempt to engage the Orc army moving through his territories. IIRC he discovered that he was hopelessly outnumbered, but despite their numbers the Orcs were moving too quickly for him to attempt to try Fabian tactics. As a result he drew back to Helm's Deep, where they had successfully held off attacks before.

So it isn't terribly different, except for the fact that the movie Theoden decided to stay with his civilians for protection. From what other posters have written, it seems that he had more warriors to spare in the book - in the movie, he only had a handful. Certainly not enough to form an escort force AND attempt to engage the orcs independently.

The movie battle was horrible to watch. One of the worst fantasy battles I can think of.

And why is that, if I may know? I liked it. Helm's Deep fortifications were pretty lousy, though.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-30 08:06pm

PeZook wrote:
Are you talking about the movie battle of the book battle?

In the movie, if Theoden charged out, his little band of warriors would be slaughtered mercilessly. He was outnumbered way too badly to do anything to the Uruk-Hai army, and he had civilians to protect. What was he supposed to do, have a battle royale out in the open? Make hit-and-run attacks with women and children on his back?

A battle in the open would have been impossible against the movie Uruk-Hai, who, if anything, seemed astonishing disciplined--that was the thing that struck me about it. They in rank and wielded their pike they disciplined veterans. Which is why the assault was really the poorest part of the entire film. Once the wall had been breached, there was simply no way that Helm's Deep should have survived--and, moreover, there is absolutely no way that a cavalry charge should have been able to break heavy infantry with that sort of organization. Hit and run attacks would obviously of course also be pointless, except perhaps to delay the advance for a short while.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-30 08:07pm

Crom wrote: The movie battle was horrible to watch. One of the worst fantasy battles I can think of.

In general it was fine, but the part where it becomes totally unrealistic is where a cavalry charge breaks up the Uruk-Hai. The movie Uruk-Hai should have been effectively invincible to a cavalry charge.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2003-08-30 08:18pm

PeZook wrote:So it isn't terribly different, except for the fact that the movie Theoden decided to stay with his civilians for protection. From what other posters have written, it seems that he had more warriors to spare in the book - in the movie, he only had a handful. Certainly not enough to form an escort force AND attempt to engage the orcs independently.

Ah, I see your point. Especially about the spies (Grima). Within the context of the movie that makes some sense. Point conceded.

Assuming that:
1) The Riders soldiers consisted of only a few hundred.
2) There was a large civilian body that needed to be protected.
3) The Orc host was closing in and could not be outrun.
4) Helm's Deep was the closest defendable structure that could be reached.

The movie now makes a lot more sense. But now Aragorn looks strange. He's encouraging Theoden to ride out against the Orcs when, as the movie portrays, he doesn't have a chance in hell. (I'm looking at the numbers ...)

In the end I prefer the setup of the book. But that's just preference.

And why is that, if I may know? I liked it. Helm's Deep fortifications were pretty lousy, though.

I believe Stravo mentioned it a while ago. The appearance of the Elves. What was supposed to be Man's first stand, alone, against the darkness is suddenly a very different scene.

That part irritated me a great deal. It seemed very arbitrary on Jackson's part. He weakened the Riders immensely and then compensated by sending them Elves. And yet, why would he have weakened the Riders in the first place?

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2003-08-30 08:20pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:In general it was fine, but the part where it becomes totally unrealistic is where a cavalry charge breaks up the Uruk-Hai. The movie Uruk-Hai should have been effectively invincible to a cavalry charge.

I was always kind of curious about why their last charge was so amazingly devastating. Then again, these were the same Orcs that were driven back by one Dwarf and one Ranger.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2003-08-30 08:22pm

fgalkin wrote:The movie battle is one of the reasons why I dislike that movie.

In the book, Theoden was hpelessly outnumbered. He did ride out to battle, but only to discover that his forces stand no chance, and decided that the walls of Helm's deep would give him a better chance of survival.

Also, he was waiting for reinforcements from Westfold (IIRC).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Technically. They had an entire army that was scattered by the Orc host. Gandalf went and gathered them together again. I'm not sure if Theoden actually knew what Gandalf was doing ...