Black Mage vs a Jedi

[Cthulhu-chan]

Lightsaber chucks.

Arrrgh! I can taste the dismemberment from here!

[Captain Cyran]

Lightsaber chucks.

Arrrgh! I can taste the dismemberment from here!

[Black Mage]I like the idea...it's more likely to kill Fighter without me having to try.[/Black Mage]

[Connor MacLeod]

Ahmmm

Hadoken Linky

So Hadoken is also low kiloton range. The Jedi star fighter was still flying after directed energy hits equal to that multidirectional blast.

When did game mechanics(The source of the kT range lightning) become canon? Are we now going to use the mechanics of Force Lightning in WEG as well?

We're not doing point to point damage conversions here. I'm pointing out the fact that some of the abilities demonstrated in Jedi Starfighter point to an energy handling ability approximately comparable (at least in output, but maybe not endurance) to fighter grade weapons.

Don't start turning into a canon-purist whiner now.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ahmmm

Hadoken Linky

So Hadoken is also low kiloton range. The Jedi star fighter was still flying after directed energy hits equal to that multidirectional blast.

Hadokens might be quite higher. Depends on how big a crater was made. A crater a couple meters in diameter might be more to the mid-high kiloton range.

Of course, we're also talking about a spherical explosion, so the distance/intensity also become a factor.

[Connor MacLeod]

How high is a Hadoken? Force lightning has been known to damage fighters (kiloton range at least)

When did it do that?
[/quote]

Jedi starfighter. Canon unless explicitly overidden by higher evidence.

Of course, this DOES take a rahter high-end Jedi Master to generate (at least - whether or not lesser Jedi can do it is up for debate.)

Its not the first example of powerful electrical attacks being generated by a non-evil Force user though, either. Teneniel Djo generated a lightning bolt that destroyed an AT-ST in Courtship of Princess Leia using the Force as well. Of course, given the "it only matters if its canon" mentality that appears to be generating, I suppose we should just toss that out as well, right?

Not to mention if it was KT what about the walkway in ROTJ? It wasn't damaged at all.

That assumes that you're needing that much energy to begin with, or want to use it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is Force lightning <, =, or > to Bolt-3?

Bolt-2 fried three old guys to crispy levles. They were quite dead.

Link to frying.

So unless there is Canon evidense for Force lightning frying three people dead in moments, light them on fire and sufficiently char them. Which Palpatine, even if he was just playing with Luke, didn't come even CLOSE to. I'd say Bolt-3 wins that contest.

"canon only" what an utterly convenient position for you to take *roll*
It wasn't even MJ level apparently, given that it didnt incenate them to ash or any such.

[Captain Cyran]

"canon only" what an utterly convenient position for you to take *roll*
It wasn't even MJ level apparently, given that it didnt incenate them to ash or any such.

Fine, if you want to use game stastics that's quite alright with me.

[Connor MacLeod]

"canon only" what an utterly convenient position for you to take *roll*
It wasn't even MJ level apparently, given that it didnt incenate them to ash or any such.

Fine, if you want to use game stastics that's quite alright with me.

Who the fuck said anything about using game statistics? I only have to realize two things:

1.) We have a set of benchmarks establishing fighter performance and capabilities.

2.) Force powers can be used offensively to attack (and in some cases defend against) fighter-class vessels. This requires abilities of a certain magnitude.

Its not a tremendously difficult conclusion to reach, really. Nor does it require any sort of manipulation or application of game statistics.

(I might add this is consistent with thousands of Jedi being able to lay waste to Yavin, including leveling most of the Massassi temples, whose resilience to weaponry has been stated in the ANH novelization, consistent with Luke Skywalker taking on an AT-AT and deflecting the attacks, etc.)

Applying observed (canon even) TK force abilities of Jedi even in part to small objects can result in some impressive energy levels, possibly approaching even nuclear yields (depending on the object, the Jedi, and the amount of force used.)

[Sea Skimmer]

Hadokens might be quite higher. Depends on how big a crater was made. A crater a couple meters in diameter might be more to the mid-high kiloton range.

Of course, we're also talking about a spherical explosion, so the distance/intensity also become a factor.

It's a picture of the Test Stokes, which was 19 kilotons and the only other evidence, the crater; suggest a yield more like 40 pounds. Which do you prefer?

[Connor MacLeod]

Hadokens might be quite higher. Depends on how big a crater was made. A crater a couple meters in diameter might be more to the mid-high kiloton range.

Of course, we're also talking about a spherical explosion, so the distance/intensity also become a factor.

It's a picture of the Test Stokes, which was 19 kilotons and the only other evidence, the crater; suggest a yield more like 40 pounds. Which do you prefer?

Myself, I dont mind. Btw that should be a few kilometers. But if you know the yield, I bow to your logic.

Of course, the Jedi might just Force choke Black Mage (I think he has to breathe, at least...)

[Sea Skimmer]

Myself, I dont mind. Btw that should be a few kilometers.

The comic shows the characters standing beside the crater, which is certainly not a few kilometers away or across.

[Connor MacLeod]

Myself, I dont mind. Btw that should be a few kilometers.

The comic shows the characters standing beside the crater, which is certainly not a few kilometers away or across.

Well, depends. IIRC the comic took place in a forest pre-detonation. It just happens that in the game the characters are drawn from that things are "out of scale" on the map screen. I based the "few kilometers" on a guesstimate of forest size.

I'm sure someone would mention that if I didn't though.

[SirNitram]

So Hadoken is also low kiloton range. The Jedi star fighter was still flying after directed energy hits equal to that multidirectional blast.

When did game mechanics(The source of the kT range lightning) become canon? Are we now going to use the mechanics of Force Lightning in WEG as well?

We're not doing point to point damage conversions here. I'm pointing out the fact that some of the abilities demonstrated in Jedi Starfighter point to an energy handling ability approximately comparable (at least in output, but maybe not endurance) to fighter grade weapons.

Don't start turning into a canon-purist whiner now.

Nice insult there; pity it sucks. So, a special ability gained in a game is now canon as long as we don't do a point by point conversion? It doesn't matter that it contradicts every other appearance of Force Lightning? I hope you realize how stupid that sounds, Connor. So TIE Defenders are now reduced to accelerations not even 100's of G's, because that's teh general speed in the game? Think about what you're suggesting, please. Throw out the movie and book uses of force lightning and the obvious general range, for a game's portrayal of it as a special ability.

[SirNitram]

I think I had best clarify my position.

While it may well be possible to take Jedi Starfighter's portrayal of Force Lightning as canon(Though the example about having to take TIE Fighters speeds with it is demonstrating what I find wrong with the method), the two canon wielders of Force Lightning, and most Official wielders, did not show anything remotely close to kT energy emission. Moreover, of all the light side Jedi we are presented with in the entire franchise, there are less that showed any kind of Force Lightning than I have fingers on one hand, as I recall. Since the OP didn't specify, I see no reason to pick one of the excessive minority which have FL, and not the one single instance of FL being that bloody powerful.

[Connor MacLeod]

Nice insult there; pity it sucks. So, a special ability gained in a game is now canon as long as we don't do a point by point conversion?

No, events, even game events, are canon (or "official" if you prefer using that term) so long as they don't explicitly override higher sources. On top of that, the comparison I am making is very simplistic and straightforward. In fact, it relies rather substantially on canon sources (such as the ICS) for the conclusion made.

It doesn't matter that it contradicts every other appearance of Force Lightning? I hope you realize how stupid that sounds, Connor.

Force lightning does not have to fall into one specific "catch all" category. We've seen multiple examples used (the "life draining" version mentioned in WEG, the physically damaging versions - Courtship, the Thrawn Trilogy, Dooku's lightning in AOTC - the version Jacen has employed in the NJO, etc.)

So TIE Defenders are now reduced to accelerations not even 100's of G's, because that's teh general speed in the game?

Nice strawman. What part of "canon unless contradicted by higher sources" confuses you exactly? Only an explicit contradiction can override official sources. Simply screaming "I don't like it" isn't going to make this any less true.

Secondly, we know from various sources just how TIE Defenders perform relative to other ships (even from what we know in the games themselves.) We also know canonically no less what the accelerative capabilities of some of those ships are (EG, X-wings, etc.) or can extrapolate from other sources (Relative to ISDs, for example.) So no, your blatant attempt to toss out part of the EU just because you attempt to generate some sort of distorted "contradiction" does not fly.

Think about what you're suggesting, please. Throw out the movie and book uses of force lightning and the obvious general range, for a game's portrayal of it as a special ability.

Strawman. I never said I was throwing out canon. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite. In fact, the game use of Force lightning in Jedi starfighter is consistent with the "physically damaging" kind of lightning. besides, even if we assume it IS a special ability.

I might further add that rationalizing the ability is far better than tossing it out. So even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it DOES somehow conflict with canon observations of Force lightning, all that means is that its a different form of Force use.

[SirNitram]

So, a single use of a power that shows power orders of magnitude out of sync with every other use(Regardless of the mechanism) is still fine, not contradicting anything? I suggest you consider that carefully, Connor. Even if we accept it as fine(Despite the obvious order-of-magnitude problem), you are citing a single instance of a single user of the Force in a thread where the OP does not specify a user. If you want to claim 'most powerful FU against most powerful BM', that's fine(Though that's my famously mispelt Handoken vs. a Force Storm.. ), but the average is far below kT.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think I had best clarify my position.

While it may well be possible to take Jedi Starfighter's portrayal of Force Lightning as canon(Though the example about having to take TIE Fighters speeds with it is demonstrating what I find wrong with the method),

I point out that the "canon unless explicitly contradicted by higher sources" element that has long been part of canon policy makes it quite viable. There is nothign even wrong with the portrayal of combat at those speeds - simply that the fighters are capable of much higher velocities and accelerations as shown repeatedly in cnaon and official sources. There are countless examples of this occuring in any examples from scaling to the Endor holocaust to weapons ranges.

By your logic, if I use a single EU example I would have to use every example even if it contradicted canon - EG the "kilojoule" starfighter laser quote from the first Rogue Squadron novel, even though it is clearly a ludicrous statement (especially since Tattooine Ghost further established that blaster rifles are MJ range weapons.)

the two canon wielders of Force Lightning, and most Official wielders, did not show anything remotely close to kT energy emission.

So? Palpy never demonstrated the capital-ship destroying Force storms, the ability to cloud the minds of millions, or anything like that. I suppose we should toss *that* out too? Or maybe toss out the AOTC ICS firepower figures because starships in the movies never demonstrated firepower approaching those levels?

Again, attempting to generate specific "contradictions" to categorically toss out something you don't like is a pathetic tactic.

Moreover, of all the light side Jedi we are presented with in the entire franchise, there are less that showed any kind of Force Lightning than I have fingers on one hand, as I recall. Since the OP didn't specify, I see no reason to pick one of the excessive minority which have FL, and not the one single instance of FL being that bloody powerful.

I can concede we have no particular reason to assume a particularily high-end Jedi, but as you said, the OP doesn't specify. Its just as valid to assume a high end Jedi as a lower one unless the specifics are stated. If the Jedi does not have such a magnitude of ability (EG, say, Corran Horn), he might very well be fucked (Since Corran really doesn't have TK either.) Of course, there's nothing preventing the Jedi from simply TKing Black Mage to death or flinging massive objects at him (or small high-velocity ones, which could just as easily provide tremendous energy outputs as well, depending ont he object and Jedi and amount of force applied to said object.)

[Connor MacLeod]

So, a single use of a power that shows power orders of magnitude out of sync with every other use(Regardless of the mechanism) is still fine, not contradicting anything?

No, it doesn't. Not anymore than say, Palpatine's abilities or C'baoths or Luke's ability to take on an AT-AT, or thousands of Jedi laying waste to Yavin, or some such. In fact, its no more contradictory than the claims made about how "inconsistent" Force TK examples or Force speed examples are.

Nevertheless, I can admit I was in error by not clarifying that the Jedi STarfighter example is not meant to be taken as a "standard" measure of ability.

I suggest you consider that carefully, Connor. Even if we accept it as fine(Despite the obvious order-of-magnitude problem),you are citing a single instance of a single user of the Force in a thread where the OP does not specify a user. If you want to claim 'most powerful FU against most powerful BM', that's fine(Though that's my famously mispelt Handoken vs. a Force Storm.. ), but the average is far below kT.

I can agree that it will depend on the Force user in question. There are Force users who aren't that powerful (Darsha Assant, Padawan from Darth Maul shadow hunter.) and then there are others. Obviously, a very weak Force user against a very powerful Black Mage is not going to win (and vice versa. Pitting a novice Black Mage against Yoda or Mace Windu isn't going to be very fair either.) But considering how some of the replies have seemed to think that the BM wins regardless of the Jedi to be used, it was a perfectly valid response. (I should have clarified that the issue was not as one-sided as it may seem.)

And while we're on the subject of the Hadoken, as Sea Skimmer points out, the Hadoken isn't neccesarily all that impressive either. Of course a Jedi doesnt neccesarily need to match raw energy to win, either.

[SirNitram]

Indeed, a Jedi need not, but I don't recall any Jedi surviving a 19kT explosion. It probably comes down to who gets the power off first, unless we are dealing with a truly unbalanced scenario in one way or another.

[Connor MacLeod]

Indeed, a Jedi need not, but I don't recall any Jedi surviving a 19kT explosion. It probably comes down to who gets the power off first, unless we are dealing with a truly unbalanced scenario in one way or another.

Depends on how close the Jedi is to the Hadoken. A spherical explosion only imparts part of the energy (even if we assume that its a beam weapon, the crater suggests a blast effect as part of it.) Any half-respecting Jedi, unless caught by surprise or not using precog, should be more than capable of putting some distance between themselves and the blast. If they have the modest energy-deflecting capabilities that deflecting a blaster bolt implies and put some distance between themselves (with precognition and Force speed, this is quite possible even assuming only tens of gees of acceleration and that the Black Mage almost instantly gets the Hadoken off.) - say several hundred meters - they could survive. And this disregards tactics meant to throw off the BM's aim at the last moment, or efforst to disrupt spellcasting.

[Singular Quartet]

Is Force lightning <, =, or > to Bolt-3?

It matters little. Hadoken is > Force Lightning.

How high is a Hadoken? Force lightning has been known to damage fighters (kiloton range at least)

I would like to point out that a use of Hadoken (in it's "Boatdoken" form here) accelerated a wooden ship (without destroying it) to high speeds, but before it could do any real damage, had a gaint dropped on it from rather disgustingly large heights.

However, the narrator indicates that the boat was skimming accross the sea at a nice, semi-healthy 438mph (or, using the ~2/3 conversion method, ~657km/h or 182.5 m/s.)

Now, since this ship was earlier stated to be weighted down with everything in Pravoka that wasn't nailed down (although this was likely added to when Theif stole everything that was nailed down) it can be assumed that this would otherwise increase the boat's mass.

Given RM's statements about the Aldi Sea (the Fishing hole of the world) Bikke's boat would also be a Pirate boat, allowing it to skim along the surface a little more easily (unless my hydrodynamics are wrong. Wouldn't surprise me)

According to Google, a good schoner(sp)/yacht is around 20,000 kilos, so, given that this isn't the best construction, and that's it's weighted down, we'll say it's between 20,000 and 40,000 kg, and we'll do calcs for both.

.5*m*v^2 = KE, so .5*20,000kg*182.5m/s = 1,825,000J and .5*40,000kg*182.5m/s = 3,650,000J

I am, unfortuantly, unaware of the Kiloton/joule exchange rates, so I can't give that, but it should also be pointed out that the Hadoken is a directed blast weapon...

[Admiral Valdemar]

I can't wait until we start rationalising Wile E. Coyote's rocket weapon explosive yield and the speed Bugs Bunny can change costume showing high gee acceleration.

[Singular Quartet]

I can't wait until we start rationalising Wile E. Coyote's rocket weapon explosive yield and the speed Bugs Bunny can change costume showing high gee acceleration.

First off: It was by no means accurate by any measure.

Secondly, Why not?

Thirdly: There is no third point.

On the fourth hand, Conner was the one that brought up Force Lightning firepower, so I brought up Hadoken firepower. Very simple.