ARRGH (ROTK spoilers)

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-12-22 04:33pm

darthdavid wrote:Oh and sarumans staff was NEVER FUCKING BROKEN. So now with gandalf and sauron gone saruman has a staff and plenty of time to plot an escape from orthanac. It would've taken 5 minutes to show gandalf breaking the staff and worm tounge dropping the planitir buuut nooooo, were just going to leave one of the most powerful wizzards ever sitting around gaining power to do evil crap.

The reason Jackson didn't spend more than 5 minutes in Isengarde at all was because it belonged in TT. If he had spent more than that much time on it you would be screaming bloody murder because he put part of a different book in the wrong movie.
Fucking moronic tolkein fanwhore.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-12-22 05:35pm

darthdavid wrote:Oh and sarumans staff was NEVER FUCKING BROKEN. So now with gandalf and sauron gone saruman has a staff and plenty of time to plot an escape from orthanac. It would've taken 5 minutes to show gandalf breaking the staff and worm tounge dropping the planitir buuut nooooo, were just going to leave one of the most powerful wizzards ever sitting around gaining power to do evil crap.

It WAS broken, we just never saw it happen, and it's not mentioned again.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-22 05:46pm

phongn wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
StormTrooperTR889 wrote:The movie was 3.5 hours long.
Dayam, it felt like only 90 minutes when I watched it.
3.33 hours, actually, and the last 20 minutes are credits, IIRC.

I timed the film and it was just about three hours thirty minutes, likely the 20 minutes of credit are on top of that.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-12-22 06:47pm

I'm quite happy with many of the changes Jackson made. It diminishes the sense of urgency and desperation we're supposed to feel about the Ring when Frodo sits on his ass for 20 years after getting the damn thing. When I first saw FoTR I immediately thought "Wow, that's so much better!".

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-12-22 08:06pm

Heh, I think I'm the only person on the board who thinks the movie should've been shorter. I don't mean cutting out entire scenese, but getting rid of the more bullshit dialogue would have been great. I was glad they cut out the Scouring, that was the most useless part of the books, other then the damn songs.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-12-22 08:22pm

Peter Jackson is not a 'moron' for trying to make an enjoyable film. Some people (like me) actually wanted to see a movie based on a book, and not simply an entire book on film.

I liked the movie. I'm glad Jackson left out the scouring. Some things just don't belong in a movie.

Daltonator · Post by **Daltonator** » 2003-12-22 08:46pm

darthdavid wrote:Oh and for all you time morons, were there not 6 fucking books? Make it based on the 6 fucking books. Hell i'd love that. Then you'd have 6 movies and you could do it fucking right. Fucking morons.

There was one book, you fucking wanker, split into three volumes: The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King, each of which was further subdivided into two parts.

What you fucking purist dickshits ALWAYS fail to remember is the inherent difficulty in adapting a book into movie form. Given his constraints, I think PJ went above and beyond expectations.

I'm a big fan of the books, always have been, always will be. And I'm a big fan of the movies too, because I recognize them as an adaption of the book and not a literal grab-and-slap. And even though I thought the Scouring of the Shire was a great way to bring closure for the hobbits and show how much they've grown, it would have dragged out the movie. The destruction of the Ring was the single most climactic scene in the movie and to drag it out by adding on the Scouring would have been a huge mistake.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-12-22 08:47pm

Let me state this:

All of you who call the Scouring of the Shire anti-climatic missed the whole damn point of the book. It was about Frodo and more specifically about Sam. Aragorn, Gandalf, and the rest of the Fellowship are means to an end, namely telling the story of four folk taken away from comfort and security and thrust into a great sweep of the world.

The Scouring is the ONLY way to logically reconnect the Hobbits with the Shire. One might realize that Bilbo after his adventure returned as something of a stranger to all (certainly he was viewed warily and enviously). His adventure alientated him from society, as a true adventure does...it sets you apart from thsoe who did not go. For Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin the Scouring is the necessarry exercise in returning them to something of the life they knew. The movie somehow has them return in the rainment of Rohan, the Tower Guard, and with elven cloaks...yet they can sit down at the Green Dragon unnoticed? Talk about total lapse in storytelling, it is a disconnect which, again, does a horrible job of leading into Frodo's desire to leave. The scouring is also what brings about closure to his story by placing Sam as the one who will rebuild and regrow that which was once green, it is the reminder of what he has sacrificed for. The movie ATTEMPTS to get this in the handing over of the Red Book and as moving as it is, I choke up a bit for that scene, it is still HOLLOW in comparison with the novel.

All that said I could understand eliminating the scouring, I won't even really complain about it (It simply isn't something most people realize is neccessarry, but then again most people haven't been to war like Tolkein had...go figure that one...a war veteran knows more about what it takes to return to life after a war than a bunch of non-vets)

My complaint is with a couple things not the least of which is the breaching of the walls of Minas Tirith...it never happened. The breaking of the gates was suppossed to trigger the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King...where the fuck was that...It would have been great: Gandalf faces down Sauron's chief lieutenant...darkness is all over the city..then suddenly silence as a cock crows, the sun breaks through the darkness and the horns of Rohan sound...its perfect and Jackson couldn't fucking take the time to work it? Christ its one of the titanic showdowns in the novel and his fuckup leads to my second complaint:

TIMING

Tolkein was anal retentive to a new level about timing...he mapped out paces and distances, measured how far everyone had to travel to have them arrive at given times and to sequence events just so. Jackson fucked it ALL to hell. Yes the Shelob incident occurs near simultaneous with the ride of Gandalf but that is because the Eye turns away from Frodo not due to an attack but due to Aragorn and the Palantir...in other words Frodo's journey miraculously fast forwards by a WEEK. He is able to cross the plains of Gorgoroth (several dozen leauges) in a matter of hous suddenly. I mean when did he grow wings? I could go into more but arrgghhh.

If you think I'm nitpicking I'll lay out the sequence of events in LOTR the novel and place it side by side with the events in ROTK and you see how the timing got fucked up, how it just fucked everything up.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-12-22 08:47pm

Small qualifier to the above...I still loved the movie I just have problems with it.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-12-22 09:11pm

To wilkens: I kinda got the impression in the Green Dragon as they looked around and such that they themselves felt like outsiders, from all their glances and such. And I don't remember any of their fellow Hobbits paying much attention to them. But that's just me. *shrug*

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-12-23 01:16am

I liked the scouring of the Shire in the books because it seemed to drive home a massive point: the war hit EVERYWHERE, not just in Gondor. There was no place that was truly spared by Sauron's (and by extension, Saruman's) darkness. At the same time, it managed to show that it WAS possible, just difficult, to stamp out all the evil in addition to cutting off the source.

But I'm glad they left it out of the movie, then it would've been just too long, and I think I agree that it's not really that vital to the story, at least not vital enough to merit such time as it would've needed.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-12-23 05:32am

Jackson cut the Saruman's scene out because they were disturbing the flow of the movie, or somesuch along the lines. Lee was pissed as hell about it.

And the scouring of the Shire: That was somehow done in the first movie, where Frodo did see a scouring of the Shire in the mirror of Galadriel...

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-12-23 05:51am

Nothing's more inane than purist fanwhores stroking it to every turd mistake Tolkien put on paper. I'm sorry, he AIN'T that good, first and foremost (his descriptions of scenes take up half the fucking book and are for the most part completely unecessary, and some of his writing decisions are just inane) and some things DO need to be cut for a film to work.

And this is moved to fantasy.

And PS, the EE will have Saruman's end (a 7 minute scene). It will be at least 40 mins longer, I reckon.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2003-12-23 06:33am

I agree with kuja about the scouring of the shire, in addition IMO it shows that the "outside world" is finding it easier and easier to encroach on the shire which in the long run will destroy the lifestyle of the hobbits and just goes to show that after certain events (WWI for example) life will never be the same.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-12-23 10:37am

Gentlemen....

I read LotR for the first time in the late '80s, possibly before some of you were born. Then, and now, I still skim over some portions of the book when the descriptives get too overblown. Tokien was a hell of a storyteller, but needed an editor at times.

PJ was his editor, a much needed one to get the story mostly complete onscreen. The parts that the movies left out, such as Tom Bombadil, the BarrowWights, and the Scouring, I have agreed with, because they did take away from the main story in my opinion. Even the Scouring felt out of place to me, more of a way for Saruman to get in one last kick at Gandalf and the Hobbits. Pippin and Merry in their armour, raising the Hobbits to fight was stirring, yes... but .............

Well... But it was just drawing out the ending. It was anti-climatic.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-12-23 02:05pm

11 ways Jackson could have ruined ROTK (Humorous)

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-12-23 02:41pm

The six books you are thinking of are the "History of Middle Earth" books. Less story, more fact.

And kudos to CmdrWilkens for using "Raiment" in a sentence

Its just a movie.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-12-23 02:48pm

IIRC isn't the Extended Edition going to be about 6 hours long? I'm betting there's going to be the "healing hands" and stuff in there, as well as Saruman!

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-12-23 03:37pm

The thing I'm most looking forward to in the EE is the uprooting of the old, dead tree in the royal courtyard and the planting of the sapling.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-12-23 05:08pm

Andrew J. wrote:The thing I'm most looking forward to in the EE is the uprooting of the old, dead tree in the royal courtyard and the planting of the sapling.

The old dead tree was there at the end, but with new blooms, IIRC.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-12-23 05:19pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Andrew J. wrote:The thing I'm most looking forward to in the EE is the uprooting of the old, dead tree in the royal courtyard and the planting of the sapling.
The old dead tree was there at the end, but with new blooms, IIRC.

Yes, the tree in the courtyard during the Crowning of Aragorn was blooming.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-23 05:26pm

Joe wrote:Do you realize just how anti-climatic and pointless the scouring of the Shire really is? I don't care if Tolkien wrote it.

A novel is not supposed to end with the climax.

There's a whole section of novel left, called the Dénouement, which winds down the novel, and shows the aftereffects of the climax.

That's the function the last two/three chapters of LOTR, including and especially the scouring, fulfill.

They don't fit in the movie, but they are necessary in the novel.

Even as a purist loony, I would have been happy if it ended with the first fade out. Hell, I even though that Frodo should have fallen with gollum, as the movie suggested he would, with his dramatic hanging over the edge bit, because the whole point of him leaving for Valinor is his sacrifice in leaving, which isn't carried by the movie ending at all.

In fact, the onlt thing that really dissatisfied me in ROTK was the fact that Denethor was crap. If they'd showed the bit with the Palantir, it would be alright, because that would explain his actions nd character, he's an exceptionally proud man forced into a position where he will lose everything, his sons, his city, and the responsibility of his position. But in the film he's just portrayed as a wanker for the sake of making the audience dislike him.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-12-23 07:02pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The six books you are thinking of are the "History of Middle Earth" books. Less story, more fact.

And kudos to CmdrWilkens for using "Raiment" in a sentence

Its just a movie.

Couple things

1) No it is not "History of Middle Earth." The novel "Lord of the Rings" is comprised of six bookes (I, II, III, IV, V, and VI). It has been generally subdivided into three printings withh books I and II in "The Fellowship of the Ring", books III and IV in "The Two Towers" and books V and VI obviously in "Return of the King."

For those who are not aware while Books I and II roughly follow the entire fellowship in an entirely chronological order books III-VI split with III and V covering the adventures of Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry, and Pippin. Meanwhile books IV and VI cover Frodo, Sam and Gollum until everyone reunites in Chapter 4 Book VI. Everyone with me there?

2) Thank you /bow

3) I understand its just a movie

Again I fully understand the reasons for not including the Scouring (time being foremost and movie conventions being next in line). However this won't stop me from gripping about things I feel were done innapropriately such as altering the sequence of events along with notable changes in the motivations and nature of several characters (Denethor in this movie, and Faramir in TTT are foremost). I also don't like Jackson developing his own thematic elements serpate from those Tolkein established (the rise of Men is certainly offset by the inclusion of elves in Helm's Deep for one, the motives of Aragorn changed from bringing forth the age of men to fighting for Arwen for another)

I also understand some people will chide me for being a "purist." Fine, just remember those comments whenver it comes to soething you might cherish such as, perhaps Dune or Star Wars. i don't want to hear gripes about horrible changes in direction due to new people being at the helm of a project. I know furtehrmore that several of those who have come out with the "stupid Tolkein purists" anti-gripe are purists themselves on other subjects (or at least can be readily accused of such with good reasoning).

basically while you mgiht not agree that Peter Jackson should have followed the novel more closely I don't want to hear the "purist" bullshit so long as you maintain similair beliefs regarding any other fictional creation...which is an awful large percentage of the population here.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-12-23 09:16pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:So Eowyn is a semantics whore?

It's the MacDuff Copout. Where any mystical prophecy/ rule can be broken on account of a technicality based on semantics.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-12-23 11:17pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote: The reason Jackson didn't spend more than 5 minutes in Isengarde at all was because it belonged in TT. If he had spent more than that much time on it you would be screaming bloody murder because he put part of a different book in the wrong movie.

It's a shame he stated on the TTT Extended Edition extras that he was planning on opening RotK with Gandalf and Co riding in and deposing Saruman.