Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

[ANGELUS]

...Was that Chris Pine in the photo with her? Sure looked like it.

Yes. He will be Steve Trevor on the WW solo movie next year.

[Q99]

For me, it was a lot like Godzilla 2014: a poorly made, tedious film followed by a great short film starring the title characters. Batfleck, Gadot WW and even Cavill were fun to watch, but they were given an awful lot of shit to work through for the nuggets of good stuff. Eisenberg played a great crazy, but a poor Lex Luthor.

At least the film left me wanting to see more...of WW and Batfleck in somebody else's movie.

I'd love it if WW ended up being the DCCU's breakout hit that everything ends up revolving around

[NeoGoomba]

I'd love it if WW ended up being the DCCU's breakout hit that everything ends up revolving around

I'm totally on-board with this.

[biostem]

I don't understand why, when Superman arrived in Gotham, he didn't just say "Luthor kidnapped my mother and said I had to kill you to save her - please help me!"

And when Wonder Woman cut off Doomsday's hand - why did she stop there - keep hacking him up!

And why not give WW the kryptonite spear?

[Crown]

I don't understand why, when Superman arrived in Gotham, he didn't just say "Luthor kidnapped my mother and said I had to kill you to save her - please help me!"

1. Act of plot. Like seriously this is the one thing you have to forgive this movie or it's pointless to continue.
2. He tried, Batman was dick to him. He pushed Batman around a bit to let Batman know that he was out matched, "Stay down! If I wanted it; you'd be dead already" and then got sucker punched.

And when Wonder Woman cut off Doomsday's hand - why did she stop there - keep hacking him up!

She got a full frontal Doomsday heat vision to her face and went flying backward.

And why not give WW the kryptonite spear?

She had her hands full with the lasso which is what allowed; A) Batman to get a clear shot at Doomsday with his last Kryptonite gas canister and B) for Superman to drive the spear into him.

[Kojiro]

Spoiler

Actually I kinda wondered why the military decided to employ nukes. So far as I could see Doomsday had no ability to fly and Superman's intention was to- as many geeky Vs battles suggest- take him into space and leave him there/throw him at the sun. More over, the nukes had the odd effect of sending Doomsday back towards the planet but leaving Supes in orbit. I'd have expected at the least they'd both be blown further away from the planet. I know nukes work differently in space but the outcome was just so odd to me.

And yeah, Wonder Woman did seem to be having a far to easy time of it. I get the impression a dozen Amazons (assuming they're similarly skilled/fast/durable) with those Amazon weapons would have made short work of Doomsday.

[biostem]

While I'm sure many people are anxious to see the extended cut of the movie, I feel like you could trim things down to make it a 1.5 hrs movie without sacrificing any meaningful content, while also improving the flow of the movie.

[Guardsman Bass]

While I'm sure many people are anxious to see the extended cut of the movie, I feel like you could trim things down to make it a 1.5 hrs movie without sacrificing any meaningful content, while also improving the flow of the movie.

Same here. Hell, you could do the same thing with Man of Steel as well - cut back a lot of the origin stuff (after showing what went down on Krypton), maybe add a little bit in there to emphasize why Superman does not kill, and you could make a shorter film centered around the conflict with Zod that would be a pretty good action and comic book movie.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's a lot I could say about this film, both good and bad. I definitely get why some reviews are horrible while others show it with praise, because their are elements of this film that are brilliant, and others that are definitely crass, stupid, or just awkward. But I think for now I will resist the urge to write a long-winded tract and keep it to two main points which particularly stand out.

1. The decision to have Spoiler

Lex force a fight between Batman and Superman by capturing Superman's (female) loved ones and playing the old damsel in distress to blackmail the hero card was the worst kind of tired, ham-fisted, over the top comic book plot. Its particularly frustrating because they had previously built up a series of compelling and legitimate reasons for the two to be opposed which felt surprisingly natural, then threw it out to force a fight in such a ham-fisted way. Though I concede that the whole thing with needing to save Martha sort of works in hindsight.

2. On the other hand, I fucking loved Affleck as Batman. I would say that at present, I would rate him the best Batman I've ever seen. I remember the outpouring of whining and vitriol when he was cast. Well, its time for pretty much ever nerd on the internet to eat crow.

Seriously, I'd be tempted to see Suicide Squad just for him.

[Crown]

Actually I kinda wondered why the military decided to employ nukes. So far as I could see Doomsday had no ability to fly and Superman's intention was to- as many geeky Vs battles suggest- take him into space and leave him there/throw him at the sun. More over, the nukes had the odd effect of sending Doomsday back towards the planet but leaving Supes in orbit. I'd have expected at the least they'd both be blown further away from the planet. I know nukes work differently in space but the outcome was just so odd to me.

I buy that after the Black Zero event the go to rationale of more Kryptonian's appearing would be to use a nuke.

And yeah, Wonder Woman did seem to be having a far to easy time of it. I get the impression a dozen Amazons (assuming they're similarly skilled/fast/durable) with those Amazon weapons would have made short work of Doomsday.

I think Diana is a special case for Amazonians.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm. I guess we'll find out in the Wonder Woman movie.

I will say I like this movie more than any other Zach Snyder film I've seeing. But since I hate Zach Snyder's visual style and wouldn't rate any other film of his that I've seen above mediocre, that admittedly isn't saying much.

[Crown]

While I'm sure many people are anxious to see the extended cut of the movie, I feel like you could trim things down to make it a 1.5 hrs movie without sacrificing any meaningful content, while also improving the flow of the movie.

Same here. Hell, you could do the same thing with Man of Steel as well - cut back a lot of the origin stuff (after showing what went down on Krypton), maybe add a little bit in there to emphasize why Superman does not kill, and you could make a shorter film centered around the conflict with Zod that would be a pretty good action and comic book movie.

Interestingly there's an IMGUR album of all the things we can deduce have been cut here. Going through them;

1. I could do with this not being in the movie. The way it's edited at 2.5hrs this scene would have been around the same time that Superman was flying towards Gotham (latest) or maybe established before Lois gets thrown off LexCorp tower. Maybe putting it back in it would help with the 'clunky' JL cameos, I don't know
2. Maybe more of the Knightmare scene? I don't know, again not sure if it needs to be in it
3. Images of Lois investigating (3 pictures), I would have liked this in the movie. Like I said the damsel in distress trope is present in this movie, but nowhere near as 'on the nose' as some are making it out to be and showing us more of Lois being proactive in essentially protecting Clark would be a net positive in my opinion
4. Pictures of Clark investigating Batman, I definetly would have liked this in the movie. We get told that he's looking into the Batman, would have liked to seen it as well since it not only reinforces Clark's idealism, but it also highlights Batman's decent into villainy (which he later gets redeemed by Clark from)
5. I ship Clois ... enough said
6. I loved the Seante hearing scene so more of that would have been awesome for me, but this could just be a publicity still rather than an actual scene. Having said that; more lines for Henry dressed as Superman is a net positive for me so put it in!
7. Jean Malone's character ... I know who she's cast as, and I'd like her in
8. Communion scene ... This one is difficult for me. As a fanboy I'm thinking "PUT IT IN" ... but I think adding it would make lay-people be even more confused as before? Not sure

[Crown]

There's a lot I could say about this film, both good and bad. I definitely get why some reviews are horrible while others show it with praise, because their are elements of this film that are brilliant, and others that are definitely crass, stupid, or just awkward. But I think for now I will resist the urge to write a long-winded tract and keep it to two main points which particularly stand out.

1. The decision to have Lex force a fight between Batman and Superman by capturing Superman's (female) loved ones and playing the old damsel in distress to blackmail the hero card was the worst kind of tired, ham-fisted, over the top comic book plot. Its particularly frustrating because they had previously built up a series of compelling and legitimate reasons for the two to be opposed which felt surprisingly natural, then threw it out to force a fight in such a ham-fisted way. Though I concede that the whole thing with needing to save Martha sort of works in hindsight.

Martha was also the thing that stopped the fight ultimately (and Lois really). It was also the only legitimate way we could believe or possibly entertain the thought that Superman would ever consider killing Bruce. Snyder established early on the "Trolley Problem" morality choice with Superman in the desert scene; he will rush in to save Lois (or Martha) even if his actions might cause another bad consequence for someone else and it is this established pattern that Lex's whole plan hinges upon; Superman has to be defrocked publicly. If the stakes weren't Martha or Lois, sure Superman and Batman may fight, but there is no way Superman would ever kill Batman.

2. On the other hand, I fucking loved Affleck as Batman. I would say that at present, I would rate him the best Batman I've ever seen. I remember the outpouring of whining and vitriol when he was cast. Well, its time for pretty much ever nerd on the internet to eat crow.

Seriously, I'd be tempted to see Suicide Squad just for him.

Just a small, tiny spoiler for Suicide Squad; it takes place after the events of BvS ...

Hmm. I guess we'll find out in the Wonder Woman movie.

I will say I like this movie more than any other Zach Snyder film I've seeing. But since I hate Zach Snyder's visual style and wouldn't rate any other film of his that I've seen above mediocre, that admittedly isn't saying much.

HA! Snyder's visuals are his biggest selling point (for me), so in my mind you just praised this movie through the roof ...

[Balrog]

It was a couple steps above mediocre. There were moments of brilliance and some of the fights were entertaining to watch, but that doesn't make up for the fact they were obviously trying to cram several movies into one and it shows, with the choppy editing, uneven pacing, and weak plot. I would watch it again, but not if I had to pay money.

Just some annoying shit off the top of my head:

• Lex Luthor gives his hired guns bullets that can be traced back to him...why?
• The Senate Subcommittee on Assholish Aliens getting worked up about Superman being indirectly responsible for some random Saharan village in the ass-end of nowhere being massacred was incredibly weak as an excuse to be angry at Superman.
• Nameless Senator just rolls over and lets Luthor have his way with the dead Zod and the scout ship with absolutely no oversight by any other gov't agency; and of course when Senator Georgia Peach hears about Luthor tooling around with this stuff she doesn't try to stop him (denying the customs permit was hard enough). I'm sure the military was happy enough to clear out from the ship and not bother checking in to see if the obviously mentally unhinged man is doing something untoward within this highly advanced and obviously dangerous vessel.
• Kryptonian security is shit if fingerprints are enough to get by their safeguards.
• I would ask just what did Lex originally plan to do with his custom-order superhuman Abomination re: controlling it once it was done being grown, but I get the feeling he (and the writers) didn't think that one through.
• Out of nowhere let's have Bruce Wayne experience a nightmarish vision of the future where I guess Darkseid takes over and have some strange guy in armor appear coming out of IIRC a Boom Tube(?) giving cryptic warnings. That won't throw the audience off.
• Random cut to Clark suddenly climbing a mountain, because why not, where he sees Papa Kent's Force Ghost. Uh huh.
• Hey let's slow down the movie by having Wonder Woman watch Youtube videos which "foreshadow" all the other Justice League members, because if we want to catch up to Marvel we can't fuck around giving Aquaman an origin movie.
• Superman's mother ("Her name is Martha! Just like Bruce's!") is held at gunpoint (okay, flamer-point) by evil Head Henchman, and silly me expected Batman to ninja his way past in order to save "Martha!" It's a good thing Head Henchman was really dedicated to not killing her before the appointed time, otherwise Bat's very loud and explosive entrance followed by extended brawl might've turned out not so well for her.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, I take it that its a safe guess that Spoiler

the coming threat Luthor alluded to at the end is Darkseid?

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Just a small, tiny spoiler for Suicide Squad; it takes place after the events of BvS ...

After? There goes my theory that suicide squad deals with Robin, and that batman has already taken care of most (or all) of his bad guys when dawn of justice takes place.

On the other hand, suicide squad could still contain flashbacks to the Death in the family event... I do believe that it will be touched upon in some way, explaining Robin's uniform in this movie, to all the casual moviegoers that barely noticed it and probably didn't know why it was relevant.

Also, I take it that its a safe guess that Spoiler

the coming threat Luthor alluded to at the end is Darkseid?

I'd think so, yeah. So many hints, during the desert dream scene, the upside-down painting at the end with descending demons, the recently released communion scene...

[Crown]

Just a small, tiny spoiler for Suicide Squad; it takes place after the events of BvS ...

After? There goes my theory that suicide squad deals with Robin, and that batman has already taken care of most (or all) of his bad guys when dawn of justice takes place.

Was confirmed this week that it definitely takes place after BvS, so Waller's line in the trailer; "Superman <> must have acted as some kind of beacon for them ... " gets real interesting if you start inserting a word or two into the "<>"

On the other hand, suicide squad could still contain flashbacks to the Death in the family event... I do believe that it will be touched upon in some way, explaining Robin's uniform in this movie, to all the casual moviegoers that barely noticed it and probably didn't know why it was relevant.

Batfleck is confirmed in the trailers ... whether it's flash back or post BvS we don't know.

Also, I take it that its a safe guess that the coming threat Luthor alluded to at the end is D?

I'd think so, yeah. So many hints, during the desert dream scene, the upside-down painting at the end with descending demons, the recently released communion scene...

The bell has been rung ... and cannot be un-rung ...

[FedRebel]

[*]Lex Luthor gives his hired guns bullets that can be traced back to him...why?

Yeah,that was stupid, wouldn't caseless ammo, with bullets designed to break up inside the victims be better? Incendiary rounds, with the gunmen making two lateral shots into victims. At a laymen's glance would look like heat vision

[*]The Senate Subcommittee on Assholish Aliens getting worked up about Superman being indirectly responsible for some random Saharan village in the ass-end of nowhere being massacred was incredibly weak as an excuse to be angry at Superman.

It was just the latest in a string of Superman interventions. Supe's positive rescues embarrass the government, but they can do nothing because of political bloback. The African massacre was something that the government could stomp on and given that Supe's de facto "base" was the US, Congress likely was under pressure reign in the alien.

[*]Nameless Senator just rolls over and lets Luthor have his way with the dead Zod and the scout ship with absolutely no oversight by any other gov't agency;

Money talks, we know nothing about this iteration of LexCorp. Likely LexCorp is a very tight government contractor and has unrivaled facilities to study Kryptonian tech.

and of course when Senator Georgia Peach hears about Luthor tooling around with this stuff she doesn't try to stop him (denying the customs permit was hard enough). I'm sure the military was happy enough to clear out from the ship and not bother checking in to see if the obviously mentally unhinged man is doing something untoward within this highly advanced and obviously dangerous vessel.

Lex's Eisenbergian composure obviously raised no red flags, it's likely ...'normal'... for Fortune 500 CEO's to act like a stoned Jim Carey.

The other stuff, LexCorp's government contracts make going head to head with Luthor dangerous, have to pick battles and the customs one was an easy 'win'.

[*]Kryptonian security is shit if fingerprints are enough to get by their safeguards.

Likely overconfidence, all Kryptonians were designer babies (except Supe's) so fingerprints were likely deemed the only biometric worth implementing (all prints can literally be unique if all the code is proofread, edited and the young is gestated in controlled conditions.)

[*]I would ask just what did Lex originally plan to do with his custom-order superhuman Abomination re: controlling it once it was done being grown, but I get the feeling he (and the writers) didn't think that one through.

Probably for Doomsday to go berserk and for a Kryptonite weapon Lex controls to slay it. He Could make up a story that the ships AI created Doomsday as a boobytrap and he was prevented by said AI from escaping and warning everybody.

Or Doomsday was a tenderizer, softening up the Earth for Darkseid, Guess Darksied promised to make Luthor a "King" (...of fools.)

[*]Out of nowhere let's have Bruce Wayne experience a nightmarish vision of the future where I guess Darkseid takes over and have some strange guy in armor appear coming out of IIRC a Boom Tube(?) giving cryptic warnings. That won't throw the audience off.

That was stupid, that whole sequence could be redacted without impacting the film. Really what was the point? it didn't communicate any information that would alter the outcome of the fight. It was just a Justice League Part II teaser

[*]Random cut to Clark suddenly climbing a mountain, because why not, where he sees Papa Kent's Force Ghost. Uh huh.

Character needed guidance, all the father figures were killed off in 'Man of Steel', would a random priest have been better?

[*]Hey let's slow down the movie by having Wonder Woman watch Youtube videos which "foreshadow" all the other Justice League members,

What made this retarded is that It's Luthor's drive, he gave the hero's logos and everything. It's supposed to be 'The Justice League', not 'The Justice League: Sponsored by LexCorp, with an endowment from The Legion of Doom.'

Should've been more mysterious, With Bruce saying that they have to find more heroes..."because we'll need them"...[cut to black]. Maybe then go bond style, before the end credits, "Batman will return in 'Suicide Squad', Wonder Woman will return in...'Wonder Woman' 2017."

[Grumman]

[*]Random cut to Clark suddenly climbing a mountain, because why not, where he sees Papa Kent's Force Ghost. Uh huh.

Character needed guidance, all the father figures were killed off in 'Man of Steel', would a random priest have been better?

Probably, because Snyder's Papa Kent sucked. If Superman was under psionic attack from somebody trying to take Superman out of the picture, Snyder's Papa Kent would be the tool he'd use: a respected father who keeps telling Clark Kent it's more important to keep a low profile than to save the lives of innocent people.

[Kojiro]

On reflection I think a good part of the reason this movie didn't grab me was the lack of build up. Unlike say Avengers, which I think was the sixth or seventh movie in the series? I mean it's great to see these characters on screen and together at that, but I feel like they skipped too much. WW should have had her own movie before this one at least. We can perhaps skip a Batman film just because yeah, he's the most overdone origin story of all superheroes and his motivation of all the characters was actually clear in this. I just feel like someone decided that DC was lagging behind Marvel too much and needed a short cut and this film suffered for it. Not horrendously but noticeably, at least to me.

[ANGELUS]

A little off-topic but kinda cool. Google Maps now allows you to visit the Batcave:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7618068 ... 000!8i4000

[Crazedwraith]

Just on the train home from it.

The fuck was that shit?

The characters seemed shallow. The plt was basic but muddled with bizarre segways and dream sequences and all the time Batman was onscreen I was just noticing the Fran Millerness. It was old good Frank Miller seen through the lens of modern bad Frank Miller.

The end... so Darkseid? Those were parademons in the desert dream sequence?

[Elheru Aran]

The end... so Darkseid? Those were parademons in the desert dream sequence?

Yep. Didn't get a great view of them, but the one that punches out Batfleck looks about right. That plus the fancy Omega symbol in the dirt, the Hellpits, and what strongly appears to be a Mother Box working on Cyborg, indicate rather powerfully to me that they're trying to set up Darkseid for the Justice League movie. I really think he could keep, but you know, whatever...

[The Romulan Republic]

What villain would you rather see for Justice League? I mean, I'm not exactly a comics expert, but I don't know of any other Justice League villain who'd be better.

Of course, you also want to save your best for last, so unless they're planning to make only one Justice League film or something...

But just because Darkseid is being set up doesn't mean he'll be the main villain in the first Justice League film. Thanos was behind everything in the first Avengers film, but that didn't mean he took centre stage. Loki did. Thanos had to wait half a decade or more to get centre stage in a film.

[Crazedwraith]

What villain would you rather see for Justice League? I mean, I'm not exactly a comics expert, but I don't know of any other Justice League villain who'd be better.

Starro was the first JL villian the way Loki was the first Avengers. He might not fit tonally though.

Or Injustice Society: beat Marvel to doing the first full on villian team up.