Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[KK]

Since you will persist in evading this point, I will repeat it. Anybody can take out Spidey with a tranquilizer dart trap. This is canon. Boo hoo for you.

And anybody can take out a Jedi with a blaster. This is canon. Boo hoo for you.


Wong, even you know that you're finished. You've been made a bitch of and are now desperately grasping at any straws you can get your broken hands on.

Really. You're now arguing that Marvel bullets are in slow-motion. Come now. This is over.

[Drach]

I never really got that whole argument either, people arguing over which planet killin method is more uber. IMO the method doesn't matter to who ever is on that planet. Be it DET, chain reaction, destabalizing the core, or if I'm a god who farted on your planet to destroy it. Any way its looked at, if you're on said planet, you're DEAD

[KK]

No, it's a point you can't answer.

Not in the manner which counts, which is superhuman speed. If they don't need superhuman speed to avoid or block bullets, then the bullets themselves must be slow. Therefore, Marvelverse bullets are slow.

You and I both know you're running on empty. Cap and Daredevil don't dodge bullets by being faster than the bullets. They dodge bullets by being faster than the gunman. They are out of the path of the bullet before the gun's trigger is even fired. In Daredevil's case, he moves his billy club in the projected path of the bullet before the gun is fired. And that is something that requires great concentration on his part, and he only does it when he absolutely needs to because every time he takes a gamble with his life.

Their feats do not require that they be faster than bullets. Sorry.

Which won't work without superhuman speed or precog, neither of which they have, therefore Marvelverse bullets are slow.

They only need be faster than the hand holding the gun to dodge bullets in the manner that they do. They need not be faster than the bullets. You lose.

How the mighty have fallen. I expected some of your croonies to get desperate and sloppy. But not you.

Which wouldn't work if the bullets weren't spaced out conveniently. Marvelverse bullets do not prove that Spidey can move any faster than his stated specs, and since you can take him down with a tranq dart trap, I'd say your claims are all proven bullshit.

Kraven got lucky, and you damn well know it. One of the pictures I posted was of a trap Chemeleon set up with lasers coming from every direction, and Spidey made a point out of how he's gone through traps like that all the time.

Spider-Man having one bad day at the hands of the best trapsmen in the world isn't enough to alter the physics of the entire universe and make it canon that bullets travel super slow in the MU.

You asked for me to provide one example. I did so. Now you're suddenly saying "oh yeah? All you did was answer my demand! Pooh pooh on you!"

No, I asked you to to provide "some" examples. As in enough examples to create a trend, rather than just an example that shows a bad day for Spidey.

You can't dismiss a piece of evidence so easily. In real life, you must generate a theory which explains all of the evidence at once, not the evidence you like while ignoring the evidence which bothers you.

"In real life."

When you start referring to Star Wars and comics as "real life" that's when it's time to sign off and give up.

[Darth Wong]

Since you will persist in evading this point, I will repeat it. Anybody can take out Spidey with a tranquilizer dart trap. This is canon. Boo hoo for you.

And anybody can take out a Jedi with a blaster. This is canon. Boo hoo for you.

Good, good. You now acknowledge that a slow-moving tranq dart is just as dangerous against Spidey as hundreds of fast-moving blaster bolts are against Jedi. Thank you for conceding defeat.

Wong, even you know that you're finished. You've been made a bitch of and are now desperately grasping at any straws you can get your broken hands on.

Baghdad Bob? Is that you?

Really. You're now arguing that Marvel bullets are in slow-motion. Come now. This is over.

No, you are refusing to acknowledge evidence. You're talking about a universe where everyone and his brother can survive for years in combat against machine-gun armed opponents while wearing spandex, even if they're not bulletproof.

You have also:

• ignored the fact that Luke IS a Jedi, despite your bullshit (your only attempt to disprove his status was a Yoda quote showing that he was INFERIOR to a real Jedi, which only makes the point stronger).
• ignored the fact that Jedi have used Force-chokes on living people in the past
• acted as though the phrase "never for attack" somehow excludes inanimate targets
• claimed that droids are not sentient because they are discriminated against
• ignored incidents such as Luke taking down an AT-AT with the Force in Dark Empire
• asked for one piece of evidence showing Spidey's spider-sense being inadequate, gotten it, and promptly complained that I was unfairly bashing you over the head with evidence (egads; using evidence!)
• posted numerous screenshots attempting to prove that Spidey's official Marvel Universe stats are wrong and utterly failed
• repeatedy claimed that Marvel Universe is not official, without explaining why
• claimed that reflexes 40 times faster than an average human are better than precog
• consistently dismissed any piece of evidence showing high Jedi power or low Spiderman abilities as an "outlier" rather than trying to explain all of the evidence at once: selective evidence interpretation seems to be your pathetic lying modus operandi, and you don't even hide it

The only bitch here is you, dumb-ass. Your whole argument hinges on the belief that the Jedi will voluntarily not use the powers that are available to him, and that a guy who was knocked out by a tranq dart trap must have godlike powers rather than a lot of luck and goofball opponents. At one point, you even claimed that a fucking Imperial Star Destroyer would be no threat to Spiderman. Utterly pathetic.

[keflex]

I suggest a comprehensive list of feats on both sides, both good showings and bad.

The only way to settle this is to reconcile the feats that are not in-line w/ the character's proposed or normal appearance levels.

BTW, all of EU is considered canon unless contradicted by the movies?

[keflex]

No, you are refusing to acknowledge evidence. You're talking about a universe where everyone and his brother can survive for years in combat against machine-gun armed opponents while wearing spandex, even if they're not bulletproof.

This applies to 90% of comic books in general, not just Marvel.

Also, we're talking about a universe(s) where people meet mythical gods, can talk in space, gamma radiation doesn't always kill you, etc. etc.

I don't think that at this point there's reason to believe that any comic bullets travel slower than real life bullets. Especially since the abilities of comic book characters require suspension of disbelief.

[KK]

Good, good. You now acknowledge that a slow-moving tranq dart is just as dangerous against Spidey as hundreds of fast-moving blaster bolts are against Jedi. Thank you for conceding defeat.

Now comes the part where you insert your proof that the tranq dart wasn't extremely fast moving.

Ready...

Go!


Hey, if one scene with Spidey getting hit by a tranq dart is your proof that the entire physics of the Marvel universe has been one big sham for decades, then it's going to have to be one fucking hard, cold piece of damning evidence.

No, you are refusing to acknowledge evidence. You're talking about a universe where everyone and his brother can survive for years in combat against machine-gun armed opponents while wearing spandex, even if they're not bulletproof.

By dodging the PEOPLE WHO ARE HOLDING THE GUNS.

Dodging the gun is not the same as dodging the bullet.

Are you going to get that any time soon, or should I clear my calandar?

You're going to need a whole hell of a lot better argument than "superheroes don't often get killed by bullets" to alter the fundamental speed of bullets for the entire Marvel universe and alter the perception of countless thousands of comics spanning from decades ago.

And let's not forget the great success Stormtroopers have been known to have, hypocrite.

You have also:
[*]ignored the fact that Luke IS a Jedi, despite your bullshit (your only attempt to disprove his status was a Yoda quote showing that he was INFERIOR to a real Jedi, which only makes the point stronger).

Straw man followed up by a blatant fabrication.

I have sited exact text that states in plain English (your second language, I presume?) that Luke was NOT a Jedi.

It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about being inferior to a Jedi. Just that he is NOT one. The quotes, I repeat, said Luke wasn't a Jedi. It didn't even hitn at any matter of superiority or inferiority. It just said, quite plainly, that he was not a Jedi.

Now you can fucking cry if you'd like, but you're not getting out of the COLD FUCKING FACT that Luke was not a Jedi.

[*]ignored the fact that Jedi have used Force-chokes on living people in the past

And that's bullshit, for the above reason.

The only "Jedi" who ever force-choked was stated, no more than a few scenes later, to NOT be a Jedi.

You can't claim a Jedi force-choked when it is clearly he explained that he was not a Jedi.

[*]acted as though the phrase "never for attack" somehow excludes inanimate targets

Because issues of morality don't apply to fucking inanimate objects.

[*]ignored incidents such as Luke taking down an AT-AT with the Force in Dark Empire

I DID NOT ignore them.

I *trumped* them with Spider-Man taking out heralds. I gave you a chance to drop your supposed "uber feats" that you wanted to use as the top of a Jedi's power. You refused, and I stopped playing nice and became just as rediculous as you.

Now Spider-man beating the living shit out of beings who can dominite starfleets, fly through supernovas, and fight in black holes is canon evidence of his upper level.

[*]asked for one piece of evidence showing Spidey's spider-sense being inadequate, gotten it, and promptly complained that I was unfairly bashing you over the head with evidence (egads; using evidence!)

Straw man. I asked for "them," implying you had several to post as you had made it seem. One piece of evidence does not establish a trend.

You are hardly "bashing me in the head with evidence" when you have a single piece of evidence up against the dozens I have already posted, and the *hundreds* if not thousands we both know exist.

I'm not sure what universe you come from, but here, one piece of evidence does not outweigh hundreds.

[*]posted numerous screenshots attempting to prove that Spidey's official Marvel Universe stats are wrong and utterly failed

Which explains why you debunked all of...wait. Shit, I forgot. You completely ignored them and didn't so much as acknowledge a single one.

What "official stats" are you talking about, anyway?

[*]repeatedy claimed that Marvel Universe is not official, without explaining why

What official stats are you babbling about?

I've never seen any official stats on his speed. Besides, you have a whole section on your site about this. Handbooks are trumped by continuity, and you damn well know it. And that's assuming there even is a handbook entry I'm contradicting, which there isn't.

[*]claimed that reflexes 40 times faster than an average human are better than precog

BZZ!! Straw man YET AGAIN.

I sad, and repeated, and explained myself repeatedly, that superior reflexes PLUS HIS OWN PRECOG trump precog and inferior reflexes.

I went into great detail on this. We've gone over this a few times, and each time you violently changed the subject after a few posts.

[*]consistently dismissed any piece of evidence showing high Jedi power or low Spiderman abilities as an "outlier" rather than trying to explain all of the evidence at once: selective evidence interpretation seems to be your pathetic lying modus operandi, and you don't even hide it

You forget entirely that we're discussing a fictional universe with a character who has been written several times each month over the course of several decades by many different writers. There are contradictions. It is literally impossible to account for every single reference with one all-encompasing explination.

Besides, lest you forget, I was ignoring the highest of Spider-Man's feats, as well.

I wasn't using his defeats of heralds until you insisted on using the AT-AT and Star Destroyer feats.

The only bitch here is you, dumb-ass. Your whole argument hinges on the belief that the Jedi will voluntarily not use the powers that are available to him,

Which is a belief supported by direct quotes from Yoda, the single most respected Jedi in the SW universe.

and that a guy who was knocked out by a tranq dart trap must have godlike powers rather than a lot of luck and goofball opponents.

A tranq dart trap that was set up by the greatest hunter in the world, who knew about the spider-sense and created his trap specifically to counter it. And on top of that, the speed of the tranq dart is unknown. He's an uber-hunter and the trap was created specifically with Spider-Man's spider-sense in mind.

The fact that you want to use that one incident to change the very nature of bullets in the entire Marvel universe is the only thing that's rediculous.

At one point, you even claimed that a fucking Imperial Star Destroyer would be no threat to Spiderman. Utterly pathetic.

No, I said that Spider-Man beat Firelord, who could beat a whole fleet of Star Destroyers.

[slayven]

also wasn't kraven enhanced to spidey level when he had his potion?

[KK]

also wasn't kraven enhanced to spidey level when he had his potion?

Yeah.

I think the simple fact that Kraven prepared the trap specifically to handle the spider-sense is pretty important.

I just wish I had the issues handy, since my gut is telling me there is something important Wong left out.

[KK]

As a side note, I feel really dirty using Spider-Man beating Firelord as debate fodder. But you saw, I gave him a chance to just drop the outlier feat angle.

[ShinjiGohan]

Wong the tought that humans average reflex is ,5 seconds is rather, well false.

Take any reflex test on the internet. I bet you'll be getting far under the .5 seconds that you claim to be average.

Worthless nitpick, about what I expect from your pathetic side of this debate. You've been reduced to claiming that Jedi can't use Force-chokes (which is manifestly untrue) and that "attack" does not apply if the target is not organic (also untrue).

In fact there were people that got an average reflex of .2 seconds. and divided by 40 is in microseconds.

So what if it's 0.2 seconds instead of 0.5 seconds? Divide 0.2 by 40 and you get 0.005 seconds. That is a result in the MILLISECOND range, not the microsecond range. Thank you for proving yet again that you are a blithering idiot. Now we see that you don't even know how to operate a calculator.

And yet you just proved that you can't read. Or is it that you have selective reading? In either case you missed the key numbers and words in my reply. Which would make you one horrible reader. Maybe you should go back to 3rd grade and learn how to read. And since students in my day got to use the calcuator sparringly in 4th grade. That'd mean what? That I need to go to 4th grade while you get to go back to 3rd grade.

For Kraven. Spiderman got hit by a dart, a dart that would easily kill normal humans, and was supposed to kill Spiderman (since you can't read very well, nor for that matter apply logic.. (I guess you should repeat Discrete Math as I'm guessing you passed only due to the teacher having sympathy for you), means that the poison dart wasn't just a normal dart, but was actually increased to deal with Spiderman's body chemistry so it'd be even more effective) in a trap that was set to confuse his spidersense enough, so that the dart would hit. AKA if the trap hadn't been there, Spiderman would have dodged with ease. Hence the need for the complex trap.

Example: What if a Jedi was put in a complex trap (lets say for instance the one where he would be in a similar situation than spiderman. Where all the Jedi has is his lightsaber, and all his force abilities. And then lasers fired from every angel, and from every direction. Would the Jedi survive? Logic tells us no. Even with TK he could only disable a handful of lasers before they go off. Then he sees with precog that still over 100 lasers from more directions than his lightsaber could deflect. And then he dies.

While spiderman in a similar situation survived, and even commented at how easy it was for him to do so.

So all that this proves is that if the Jedi knowingly set up a complex trap, to kill spiderman and then fires a blaster at him, they'd have a chance at hitting him. This of course takes into consideration that Spiderman *gasp* learns from his mistakes. And would thus be harder to trap. And seeing how they aren't hunters like Kraven, that limits there chances even further. Is it impossible for them to succeed? No, but chances are not on their side.

To Mr. Conner, fact is whether you like it or not. The ki blasts that were made from Muten Roshi at the middle of DB, were weak and easily duplicated in the later vols of the manga. And incase you can't see, there was some recoil with Roshi. There is recoil when Goku and Vegeta went into their ki beam battle. Yet *gasp* upon firing these type of blasts (althought not on this level of strength) all their lives, they learned how to counter act the recoil and momentum. You're nit picking and how it shouldn't be so doesn't change that fact that it happened. If you can accept some microscopic organisms in your body that allow you to have TK, TP, force speed, force choke, and pre cog. Then why not the common sense that Gokou found a way to counter this momentum so some degree? Like maybe forcing out ki in the opposite direction. Really, these fighters are supposed to be genuises of combat. Masters of using ki. And yet you act like this is their first time and they weren't expecting any recoil and the like and thus are blown away by the force of their output.

BTW did the deathstar move any when it fired it's blast? Thats right it didn't move. So where did the momentum go there? Or are you going to ignore it because its starwars, and then complain about it in DBZ just cuz you want to?

And also Vegeta trained in 300G's of gravity before even going SSJ. If you are going to assume that suddenly when they go SSJ a state in which all aspects are supposed to be increased, that they suddenly would have trouble with 150 G's, then you have problem with logic.

Also, Luke was NEVER A full fledged Jedi. Yoda even stats this. Now this doesn't mean that Luke is a Sith either. After all if you had some form of logic (like someone that's supposively a master of physics should have). Just because something isn't some adjective, doesn't mean that it has to be the other unless there was no other option. For example
For All (browser doesn't support logic symbols like For all, or there exists) birds X, X != canary, thus X = cardinal. that is the logic that you are trying to imply that if Luke is not a Jedi then he must be a Sith. You forget about all the other options that X could be.

BTW if you can't guess, conclusion is wrong. But some like Wong appearly believe that this is true. As we know that X is a bird and that its not a Canary, all we know for sure is that X is just that. Nothing more. Hence to claim that X must be any other kind of bird without any more statements to say as such is flawed. All we know is that X is a bird (or in this case Luke can use the force), but X!=Canary (going by Yoda's statment this goes under Luke!= Jedi), thus
(Luke!= Jedi) AND (Luke=Force User)
That is the only true conclusion that we can gather from the input given.

We can also describe this using predicates if you so desire. If you can't even understand what I wrote. However it you can't even understand that, then writing it in predicate calculas is meaningless as it'd confuse you even more.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Luke was just a person that was neither an Jedi, nor was he a Sith. but a person that was in his own group. Heck think of Anakin before his training. He had experience with the force and yet never was affliated with any group til he was more or less adopted into the Jedi order.

[Crazedwraith]

[It is not a lone outlier feat; you have deliberately ignored numerous other incidents listed in this thread, such as Luke bringing down a fucking AT-AT.

When did Luke bring down an AT-AT? If you're talking about ESB that didn't have any think to do with the force. Anybody who had a harpon caple gun, a lightsaber and a grendade could have done that.

[Ghost Rider]

[It is not a lone outlier feat; you have deliberately ignored numerous other incidents listed in this thread, such as Luke bringing down a fucking AT-AT.

When did Luke bring down an AT-AT? If you're talking about ESB that didn't have any think to do with the force. Anybody who had a harpon caple gun, a lightsaber and a grendade could have done that.

DE#1

He both deflects and brings down the AT-AT.

[Strider119]

In the something abotu a gun story arc, there is a little kid who accidentally fires a gun at spiderman from behind. (They are maybe 30 feet apart at the most)

and there is a multiple panle break down of the bullet slowly traveling through the air and getting closer to spiderman. Once it gets to about 15 feet his spidersense goes off and he instinctively lurches out of the way, making the bullet miss him

that was pretty impressive since he didnt even start to dodge the bullet until it closed half the distance to him

...


And Connor I am sure that all the people who debated in the DBZ thread wil be happy to debate you again in a seperate thread, but bringing DBZ arguments and calculations in here just makes things messy. Havign to sift through all the DBZ posts just to read the Star Wars posts can get annoying. Perhaps you could revive the DBZ thread, or make a new one and was acn all take that part of the discussion in there.



million dollar man:
Strider119

[Darth Wong]

Now comes the part where you insert your proof that the tranq dart wasn't extremely fast moving.

Ah, so everything is assumed to be superfast unless proven otherwise?

We have figures on Spidey's strength: 15 tons overhead lift. We have figures on Spidey's reflexes: 40 times faster than a normal human. We know that this was inadequate to let Spidey evade a tranq dart trap, and if there is a tranq dart gun which fires hypersonic darts, please let me know. We also know that neither of these will allow him to survive a TK attack, so your only retort is to claim that Jedi, who are known to have this ability, will refuse to use it on principle.

Hey, if one scene with Spidey getting hit by a tranq dart is your proof that the entire physics of the Marvel universe has been one big sham for decades, then it's going to have to be one fucking hard, cold piece of damning evidence.

Ah, so you want to apply physics to Marvel now? OK, Spidey is a feeb because none of the buses or subway cars he's ever lifted could have been very heavy since their skins did not buckle when picked up. Oh wait, you only want to apply physics when it suits you? Ah yes, I forgot what a dishonest little shit you are.

No, you are refusing to acknowledge evidence. You're talking about a universe where everyone and his brother can survive for years in combat against machine-gun armed opponents while wearing spandex, even if they're not bulletproof.

By dodging the PEOPLE WHO ARE HOLDING THE GUNS.

Dodging the gun is not the same as dodging the bullet.

You're an idiot. The ability to shift your hand cannot be compensated for by any human musculature to move an entire body. If Daredevil can avoid bullets without superhuman speed (not to mention technology which nullifies little issues like inertia), they must be either slow moving or fired by people who are blind.

Let me use your logic: Spidey only gets hit by a dart once as we recall (although I haven't the entire Spidey collection so I can't be sure), so he must be faster than bullets or darts. Correspondingly, Luke only gets hit by a blaster bolt once (and that's on an artificial part of his body), so he must be faster than bullets or darts. Also, Spidey beat Firelord, who is a starkiller, therefore he's more powerful than Firelord. Correspondingly, Luke beat the Death Star, which is millions of times more powerful than a star, therefore Luke is millions of times more powerful than a star.

<snip more repetitions of old claims and bullshit>

Your entire argument is based on uneven application of logic. You consistently apply a different standard to SW than you do to Spidey. You consistently apply bullshit logic to Spidey that would have you screaming apeshit if applied to SW.

Fact: Spidey was taken down by a tranq dart trap
Fact: Kraven's speed and strength are utterly irrelevant to the tranq dart trap, so your bringing them up is a pure red herring
Fact: Spidey reacted to the tranq dart trap too late, and couldn't move his body out of the way fast enough
Fact: this proves that your claims about Spidey's speed are exaggerated
Fact: Jedi can move impossibly fast for ground traction, thus requiring a TK push against some object such as a wall. Spidey does not have TK. He cannot accelerate the way the Jedi did in TPM.
Fact: Spidey lacks TK
Fact: Spidey's strength is a few hundred times that of a typical human. A few hundred times the force necessary to crush a human trachea is nothing for a Jedi, since even journeyman Jedi could throw battledroids and superbattledroids weighing hundreds of pounds around like rag dolls.
Fact: your only response to all of this is to claim that Jedi will voluntarily avoid using their powers and use the bullshit logic that if A defeats B, then A must be more powerful than B (ignoring the question of whether B's defense is as good as his offense), or better yet, that Spidey must be faster than a bullet if he uses his spider-sense to avoid being hit by them (by this logic, Jedi are faster than blaster bolts, so you STILL lose).

[Crazedwraith]

About Spidey being tranked in Kraven's Last Hunt i havent seen that but in Spider-man: the ultimate guide the section on it shows kraven pionting a rifle at spider-man who is caught in a net beforing being shooot between the eyes. From this we get a picture of why he was shoot. And his strenght and endurance. How would a jedi fair if the were shoot between the eyes?

[Jim Raynor]

What's stopping him from telekinetically trashing Spidey's webshooters? With no ranged attacks and floating in mid-air, he would be helpless. Even if the Jedi doesn't feel like using the Force to directly kill Spider-man, he could just throw his lightsaber at him.

For one, he'd have no reason to think about the web-shooters until he'd already been webbed up.

Oh please. Ever hear of precog? You're also assuming that once Spidey gets a shot off, the Jedi WILL be webbed up, even though they can either dodge the webbing, or push it right back into Spidey's face.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

also wasn't kraven enhanced to spidey level when he had his potion?

Even more.
Spidey nearly died against that Ratguy, Kraven beat him into submission in h2h

[Lucifer Morningstar]

About Spidey being tranked in Kraven's Last Hunt i havent seen that but in Spider-man: the ultimate guide the section on it shows kraven pionting a rifle at spider-man who is caught in a net beforing being shooot between the eyes. From this we get a picture of why he was shoot. And his strenght and endurance. How would a jedi fair if the were shoot between the eyes?

And then you have spidey who is 40 times faster than a human with his own equivalent of "Precog",.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

oops
that reply should have been to Raynor.

[KK]

Ah, so everything is assumed to be superfast unless proven otherwise?

Let's analyze the known factors.

1. Spider-Man has dodged steady machinegun fire and lasers on a near daily basis for several decades.
2. Spider-Man was once hit by a tranq dart.

Let's analyze the possible explinations.

1. The tranq was really fast.
2. The trap, which Kraven set up SPECIFICALLY to counter the spider-sense, is what can be attributed to his failure to dodge the tranq dart.
3. The last 50 years of Marvel history have been a crock of shit, and their bullets are secretly snails.

Nobody but a total dumbfuck would pick the third, and anyone who's logic is worth a shit would pick the second.

We have figures on Spidey's strength: 15 tons overhead lift.

That's a 15 ton benchpress rep; not overhead lift. We've been over this.

We have figures on Spidey's reflexes: 40 times faster than a normal human.

Which is the speed he reacts to his own precog, the spider-sense. I don't know why you insist on trying to act like the Jedi is the only one with precog.

We know that this was inadequate to let Spidey evade a tranq dart trap,

Bzzt! Wrong.

We know that he was unable to evade the trap. We don't know that a speed defeciency is the cause, and all evidence and logic indicates otherwise. You have nothing.

and if there is a tranq dart gun which fires hypersonic darts, please let me know.

Irrelevant, because that is not required for what Kraven did.

His trap negated the spider-sense, or confused it enough so that the dart didn't register a high priority.

Unless you can prove that his speed was the only variable of that scene, it isn't a valid point.

We also know that neither of these will allow him to survive a TK attack, so your only retort is to claim that Jedi, who are known to have this ability, will refuse to use it on principle.

I assume that, in self defense, they would use TK in a battle.

The only thing I don't believe they would do is pop his arteries and instantly kill him.

Hell, they *may* even (and that's a big may based on no evidence) try to knock him out with a force choke, but *not* kill him, which is exactly what Luke did.

I'll grant you that in a battle where everything's at stake, they would use TK offensively, since it could just as easily be deamed defense. But what they won't do is give him an aneurism or pull his heart from his chest or anything like that.

Ah, so you want to apply physics to Marvel now? OK, Spidey is a feeb because none of the buses or subway cars he's ever lifted could have been very heavy since their skins did not buckle when picked up. Oh wait, you only want to apply physics when it suits you? Ah yes, I forgot what a dishonest little shit you are.

What a fucking joke you're becomming. Not drawing objects as denting properly is a whole fucking different ballgame than you trying to bullshit out of Spidey's speed by trying to pass off that bullets in the MU travel at super slow speeds.

You're an idiot. The ability to shift your hand cannot be compensated for by any human musculature to move an entire body. If Daredevil can avoid bullets without superhuman speed (not to mention technology which nullifies little issues like inertia), they must be either slow moving or fired by people who are blind.

Are you a total fucking lackwit? People can dodge gunfire in that manner **IN THE REAL WORLD**, let alone in comics where the two characters are physically superior to any human in real life and have superhuman powers to help them.

They jump and flip around the room so that the gunmen can't draw a bead on them. That's *NOT* the same as being faster than bullets.

But Spidey doesn't have to do that. Granted, he does do that sometimes, but he's shown that he doesn't have to.

Let me use your logic: Spidey only gets hit by a dart once as we recall (although I haven't the entire Spidey collection so I can't be sure), so he must be faster than bullets or darts. Correspondingly, Luke only gets hit by a blaster bolt once (and that's on an artificial part of his body), so he must be faster than bullets or darts.

I love it when people use the "let me use your logic" trick when they have zero sense of logic to properly use the term in relation to anything they manage to think.

Spider-Man is faster than bullets because he consistantly, regularly, and easily dodges bullets. The dart incident was *SPECIFICALLY* set up to deal with his spider-sense. Even so, it is a lone example of Spidey slipping up.

Likewise, Jedi regularly block blaser bolts, which for all your calculations of insane speed, can be easily tracked by the naked eye. Luke got hit once. That is also an example of Luke slipping up, rather than proof positive that Luke is slow. Of course, Luke wasn't hit as part of a trap that specifically negated his precog, but we'll let that slip and say, like I have been saying, that one bad example doesn't negate hundreds of good ones.

Your own argument hurts your case when you mention that Luke has also been hit by a blaster bolt, which by your displayed argument should negate all the times he's blocked them.


And lest we forget, your entire argument about bullets being slow just because superheroes don't often get shot is utterly laughable. How often were Luke, Leia, Chewy, Han, or even fucking C-3P0 and R2-D2 shot by stormtroopers in the movie? Does that means blaster bolts are slow?

And I know your reply already. You'll say that the Stormtroopers were bad aims (forget that you try to pass them off as crack shots in other debates) and none of the SW characters had to dodge the bolts. And I'll note that Han and Chewie ran from the bolts so the Stormtroopers couldn't draw a bead, just like Daredevil and Cap, but not like Spidey.

Also, Spidey beat Firelord, who is a starkiller, therefore he's more powerful than Firelord. Correspondingly, Luke beat the Death Star, which is millions of times more powerful than a star, therefore Luke is millions of times more powerful than a star.

Ignorant and pointless drivel.

Luke beat the Death Star by shooting a torpedo down the exhaust port. Spider-Man beat Firelord by punching the shit out of him.

Spider-Man's punches > supernovas and black holes

And that's precisely why I didn't use the example until you started being a bitch about using high-end feats. Right now you're fucking wishing I would have stuck with my old "high-end feats" of dodging bullets and lifting subway cars, which as you can plainly see, where never really the high-end feats you claimed they were.

Your entire argument is based on uneven application of logic. You consistently apply a different standard to SW than you do to Spidey. You consistently apply bullshit logic to Spidey that would have you screaming apeshit if applied to SW.

Flat out fabrication.

I directly avoided using Spider-Man's high end feats, and concentrated on his average portrayal. You still bitched about me only using high-end feats, and replied with high-end Jedi feats of your own. Only then did I actually pull out Spidey's true high-end feats.

I was applying the same standard of using the average portrayal for both. You were the one who came in bitching about my unfairness that, as I've shown with the real high-end feats, was never there.

Fact: Spidey was taken down by a tranq dart trap

Fact: The trap was specifically designed to deal with the spider-sense.

Fact: Kraven's speed and strength are utterly irrelevant to the tranq dart trap, so your bringing them up is a pure red herring

Fact: I didn't bring them up myself.

Fact: Spidey reacted to the tranq dart trap too late, and couldn't move his body out of the way fast enough

Fact: He was in a trap specifically designed to negate his spider-sense. I feel like a fucking broken record.

I may as well find an example of a Jedi when his precog has been negated and use that for my argument.

Fact: this proves that your claims about Spidey's speed are exaggerated

Fact: It's not proof of ANYTHING other than that Kraven is a master trapsmen, and I've fucking posted scans that show I wasn't exaggerating anything.

Fact: Jedi can move impossibly fast for ground traction, thus requiring a TK push against some object such as a wall. Spidey does not have TK. He cannot accelerate the way the Jedi did in TPM.

Non-fact: TK is required for quick movement.

Fact: Arguing that Spider-Man, the guy who sticks to walls, has a traction problme, is fucking retarded to the tenth power.

Fact: Spidey lacks TK

Equally meaningful fact: Jedi don't have webbing.

Fact: Spidey's strength is a few hundred times that of a typical human. A few hundred times the force necessary to crush a human trachea is nothing for a Jedi, since even journeyman Jedi could throw battledroids and superbattledroids weighing hundreds of pounds around like rag dolls.

Fact: Spider-Man can go without breathing for over 20 minutes, which is why...

Fact: The SW side had to resort to more drastic measures of popping arteries, which is...

Fact: Completely unsupported, even by Luke in RotJ.

Fact: your only response to all of this is to claim that Jedi will voluntarily avoid using their powers

Fact: That is not a fact.

and use the bullshit logic that if A defeats B, then A must be more powerful than B (ignoring the question of whether B's defense is as good as his offense),

Fact: I specifically brought up points on Firelord's defense, which leads me to wonder if you are even reading my posts.

Fact: Firelord can survive supernovas, fly through the hearts of stars just to clean himself, and survive in black holes.

Fact: Firelord has been rendered unconscious by a beating at the hands of Spider-Man.

Fact: Silver Surfer, who has also been beaten up by Spidey, once fought hand-to-hand inside a black hole while at the same time telekenetically shielding a human from the void of space and stearing his board with her on it back to Earth.

or better yet, that Spidey must be faster than a bullet if he uses his spider-sense to avoid being hit by them (by this logic, Jedi are faster than blaster bolts, so you STILL lose).

Fact: Two of the pictures I posted of him dodging lasers were when he had lost his spider-sense, and those lasers were random-firing computer controlled lasers which he couldn't have known where they were aimed until after they had been fired.

I'll repeat.

Fact: He has dodged lasers withut his spider-sense.

[KK]

Oh please. Ever hear of precog?

Yes, I've heard a great deal about it. I hear about it every time I read Spider-Man, since he also has precog.

SPIDER-MAN ALSO HAS PRECOG!

Stop using precog as a crutch.

You're also assuming that once Spidey gets a shot off, the Jedi WILL be webbed up, even though they can either dodge the webbing, or push it right back into Spidey's face.

Perhaps you've missed the part where I explained that he can fire in a wide-angle stream that makes dodging all but impossible.

[KK]

Dang. Your text sizes here are whacked.

[KK]

Ok, Wong. The shit has hit the fan.

I'm calling BULLSHIT on your Kraven's Last Hunt reference. I had a suspicion that you left something out, but hadn't read the book in awhile and thought I might have been thinking of a different Kraven story.

But it has been confirmed. Earlier in the story, Kraven voodoo poisoned Spider-Man. Spidey said he felt like jungle drums were pounding in his head, and wondered to himself why he was off par.

"Tonight my mind has penetrated your essence. It feasts upon you, like maggots feasting upon a corpse."
-Kraven, Kraven's Last Hunt

Kraven had mucked with Spider-Man's mind before the tranq dart incident. Spider-Man's was hearing things and hallucinating, thus negating the spider-sense, and said himself that he was performing below par.

Care to try again?

[KK]

Let's get this straight.

You're using a scene where Spidey was poisoned, hallucinating, and performing physically below par and failed to dodge an elaborate trap as your argument for his speed.

-and-

You're using a scene where an entire group of Jedi amplified their power to an unknown degree with the Sith temples and channelled it through one of their number, who had to sacrifice his life, as your argument for the power of a single average Jedi.


And you have the gall to accuse me of being dishonest or unfair.