The OotS thread

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Mr Bean
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Mr Bean »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:no just the % of all black dragonkin which would be of any relation no matter how tenuous to the one that he was fighting.

Still counts as Genocide.
Not quite
V killed at present 63 Black Dragon and black Dragon relatives. It's not Genocide. If Hitler had only killed 65 jews(Plus Mama and Son) then we would not call him a Genocidal manic. There's a damn good reason the spell is called Familicide. It's killing the relatives of the ABD. Which per the forums means if it's a powerful enough spell V will have killed more than enough dragons to get Tiamats attention.

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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Solauren »

Tiamat's attention...

That's NOT something you want to have.

She shows up at the worse possible times...
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Bedlam »

Mr Bean wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:no just the % of all black dragonkin which would be of any relation no matter how tenuous to the one that he was fighting.

Still counts as Genocide.
Not quite
V killed at present 63 Black Dragon and black Dragon relatives. It's not Genocide. If Hitler had only killed 65 jews(Plus Mama and Son) then we would not call him a Genocidal manic. There's a damn good reason the spell is called Familicide. It's killing the relatives of the ABD. Which per the forums means if it's a powerful enough spell V will have killed more than enough dragons to get Tiamats attention.
Interesting point. At what point does killing lots of people of the same race (species in this case) become genocide. In this case it might depend on how many Black Dragons there are. If the total population of Black Dragons is 1,000 and V killed 6.5% of them is that Genocide? If the population is 10,000 and the kill is 0.65% is that Genocide? Or does the intent matter V does not seem to want to kill all Black Dragons just those related to the mother, does that not make it genocide even if a large proportion of the population were killed?

Not wanting to get into a big Hitler debate but what proportion of the worlds total Jews were killed? and could it be considered that Hitler did not want to (could not?) kill all of the worlds jews, just those in Europe?
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Mr Bean »

Genocide requires intent V does not give two shits about the Black Dragon race. V wants to kill the ABD and all those who might come after V's family for vengeance.

The difference is not how many you did kill, but what you set out to do. The Nazi's set out to kill the World's Jews or work them until they did die. The Hutu's set out to kill all of the Tutsis's. The Turks set out to eliminate the Armenians from their country (If not the world) These were Genocides, they were a deliberate attempt by one group to set out to eliminate one ethnic group from their country/region/world.

V did not commit Genocide unless V was attempting to kill all Black Dragon's. Even if V killed a rather large(Greater than 10%) of Black Dragons in the world it's still not Genocide in the sense of the word because V has no idea how many or how few children the ABD had.

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Re: The OotS thread

Post by avatarxprime »

I would like to point out that if the spell only targets those with a blood relationship to the ABD than V's intent to prevent something like this from happening again would not work. The mates of those Black Dragons that were killed can still set out to find out who it was that killed their children and mate.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

yes, but global relationships, and gentics, a good deal of any population is related to each other, especially when dealing with solitary hunter races such as the black dragons. sure only 65 were pictured, but there's also colaterial damage, hell we have no idea the complexity of the spell that mage half dragon was attempting was, what was beneath the flying dragons, etc. I believe an ingormal genetics study found that 70% of the population of Europe has genes belonging to descendants of Gengis Khan.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Ender »

If Tiamat gets involved and punishes V, the question becomes not "Will the fiends use him to wield the snarl for their own purposes" but "Will V unleash the Snarl on Tiamat as revenge"
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:yes, but global relationships, and gentics, a good deal of any population is related to each other, especially when dealing with solitary hunter races such as the black dragons. sure only 65 were pictured, but there's also colaterial damage, hell we have no idea the complexity of the spell that mage half dragon was attempting was, what was beneath the flying dragons, etc. I believe an ingormal genetics study found that 70% of the population of Europe has genes belonging to descendants of Gengis Khan.
I think that's Asia, not europe.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Duckie »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:yes, but global relationships, and gentics, a good deal of any population is related to each other, especially when dealing with solitary hunter races such as the black dragons. sure only 65 were pictured, but there's also colaterial damage, hell we have no idea the complexity of the spell that mage half dragon was attempting was, what was beneath the flying dragons, etc. I believe an ingormal genetics study found that 70% of the population of Europe has genes belonging to descendants of Gengis Khan.
I think that's Asia, not europe.
Also it's not 70, it's 8%
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Starglider »

640 is up. That answers the 'what percentage of the population were killed' question, Tiamat will indeed be pissed.
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Re: The OotS thread

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They ain't kidding when they said "That's a lot of unguarded treasure."
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by avatarxprime »

Now we also know how Familicide works. Also I think the gag at the end points to Orange being Neutral Evil.
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Re: The OotS thread

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Any chance someone can re-host the image? I can't get in to the site.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by avatarxprime »

Here you go.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by CarsonPalmer »

I like the March Madness joke at the end...but holy God, V has gone off the deep end.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Kodiak »

avatarxprime wrote:Here you go.
*snip*

Awesome, thanks
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Re: The OotS thread

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Yeah, thanks muchly. :D
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Solauren »

Starglider wrote:640 is up. That answers the 'what percentage of the population were killed' question, Tiamat will indeed be pissed.
Pissed?

That's an understatement.

He just lost approximately 5% of her most powerful mortal worshippers!
This is assuming even population distrubution between the 5 main chromatic colors, which is unlikely. I remember reading in the 2nd Edition Draconomicron that Whites have large populations, and are so stupid, because they inbreed and have litters of up to 7 or so.

But, the point stands. That's a significant percentage of her worshippers.

Bring on the Dragon Queen!
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Tiriol »

I'm actually rather interested to see how Varsuuvius's family will react to this. It would be an extremely ironic turn of events if they would simply reject what he/she/it has done with horror and disgust.

And judging by their earlier looks, they might very well do so.

And frankly, the fiends' explanation of V's demeanor and actions is something I actually expected. V has been acting more and more arrogantly and belligerently for the duration of the story, devolving morally so far that he/she/it was directly threatening one of his/her/its own companions and supposed friends just because he might be inconvenient or prove to be one. I wonder whether V is forced to realize the enormity of what he/she/it has done, unlike the fallen paladin earlier in the comic (they do actually have some remote similarity in their storylines and outlooks).
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

See, that's the problem making deals with powerful beings from the abyss... sometimes they lie.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:See, that's the problem making deals with powerful beings from the abyss... sometimes they lie.
Ah, but they didn't lie. Strictly speaking. The word "may" was used. And V was told that the one that was in control of his/her alignment, was V. The orange fiend even stated that V was in control and that the voices were merely voices.

Though the fiends were still intentionally misleading.



And Tiamat is almost definitely gonna be pissed off as hell. Hopefully she waits until V looses the Soul Splice before getting revenge. Otherwise the pantheon of the OotS world my be reduced by one god. V is channeling some pretty damn epic (no pun intended) amounts of power right now, and actually has a chance of killing a god.

In fact, glancing at the Deities and Demigods book, it looks like V would stand a reasonable chance of victory, so long as proper buffs were used before-hand. The only thing currently stopping V from being considered a demi-god, in fact, is the lack of actually having a divine rank.

Though Evil V facing off with Tiamat only to lose all powers right before striking the death blow could prove to be amusing.



I just realized something... If Tiamat finds out how V got access to Familicide, the fiends could end up having hell to pay, regardless of whether or not Tiamat takes interest in V.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Ford Prefect »

Tiriol wrote:And frankly, the fiends' explanation of V's demeanor and actions is something I actually expected.
Let's be honest here, V's has always been hungry for greater and greater arcane power.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Solauren »

Napoleon the Clown wrote: Ah, but they didn't lie. Strictly speaking. The word "may" was used. And V was told that the one that was in control of his/her alignment, was V. The orange fiend even stated that V was in control and that the voices were merely voices.

Though the fiends were still intentionally misleading.
I diagree with that. There was no misleading. They said V would remain in complete control and may cause feelings of omnipotience.

V decided to go nuts here. They are just the service providers.
Napoleon the Clown wrote: And Tiamat is almost definitely gonna be pissed off as hell. Hopefully she waits until V looses the Soul Splice before getting revenge. Otherwise the pantheon of the OotS world my be reduced by one god. V is channeling some pretty damn epic (no pun intended) amounts of power right now, and actually has a chance of killing a god.
You're underestimating deities.
Napoleon the Clown wrote: In fact, glancing at the Deities and Demigods book, it looks like V would stand a reasonable chance of victory, so long as proper buffs were used before-hand. The only thing currently stopping V from being considered a demi-god, in fact, is the lack of actually having a divine rank.
You mean a book that was made out of date by the Epic level Handbook?
From the company that made the Prince of Demons only CR 23, and Dragon Magazine had to correct it?

Sorry, Deities and Demigods is questionable at best for stating the gods. Double there outsider hitdice and give them 20 or more additional class levels, then you're getting closer to things I should think.
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Though Evil V facing off with Tiamat only to lose all powers right before striking the death blow could prove to be amusing.
Yes
Napoleon the Clown wrote: I just realized something... If Tiamat finds out how V got access to Familicide, the fiends could end up having hell to pay, regardless of whether or not Tiamat takes interest in V.
Debatable.

Followers of Deities and Fiends and so forth are killing each other all the time. Especially evil ones. It's Good's big advantage.

Then again, Tiamatt is extremely petty, so you never know.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Solauren wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Ah, but they didn't lie. Strictly speaking. The word "may" was used. And V was told that the one that was in control of his/her alignment, was V. The orange fiend even stated that V was in control and that the voices were merely voices.

Though the fiends were still intentionally misleading.
I diagree with that. There was no misleading.
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Re: The OotS thread

Post by Ender »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Solauren wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Ah, but they didn't lie. Strictly speaking. The word "may" was used. And V was told that the one that was in control of his/her alignment, was V. The orange fiend even stated that V was in control and that the voices were merely voices.

Though the fiends were still intentionally misleading.
I diagree with that. There was no misleading.
"You may be experiencing some feedback. You know, alignment-wise from 635 sounds like an implication that the souls actually do affect his alignment. One given in an ambiguously worded way, since "feedback" could be taken to mean "mentally influences your alignment" or "they tell you to do evil stuff" in this context.
Nope, because the fiend didn't imply anything of the sort. He didn't say why the feedback was there, V mentioned feeling odd, and the fiend said it could be from an alignment shift. Which is true, making a deal with the fiends MAY have been enough to give him an alignment shift and that MAY have explained the odd feelings. V chose to run with it thinking it meant the souls were guiding him when the fiend was attributing it to a different cause.

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