Captain America: Civil War thread

[LadyTevar]

Ok, I misread the announcement about it. They're "Committed" to making it, but they don't know when or where it will fall in the lineup. So, it could happen, or it could go the way of the Inhumans movie.

While DC is beating them to a literal "Chick Flick", Marvel's had Widow as a major part of the Avengers from the beginning. I am fully convinced Widow's success lead to WonderWoman's inclusion in BvS, and I hope to god that the WW Movie is better than anything they've given us of Batman or Superman in the last five years.

A quick question that might seem a bit odd, I know he's suppose to be from Africa storywise but is Black Panther depicted like someone who was borned and raised in the USA with all the baggage that entails or his he depicted as proud wakandan who would scoff at idea that he is the same as someone born in the states simply because both have dark brown skin?

He is FULLY Wakandan, born and raised the Prince and heir-apparent. He is supposedly fluent in English and French, as they are the most-used diplomatic languages, as well as the languages of the counties surrounding Wakanda.

I am not sure if they'll have T'chala studying abroad in his youth, but the comic-verse T'Chala had "gap year/walkabout" where he traveled as a normal migrant across Africa and Europe. He met Pre-Xmen Ororo/Storm during this journey, and it was implied that it was meant to show him all the good and bad about the nations he'd be interacting with as Prince and King. It was also implied that this was something his father had done before him, and might explain why Wakanda prefers to stay isolationist. There's a lot of bad things outside; injustice, intolerance, poverty, racism ... things the average Wakandan doesn't experience thanks to their unique social system.

[Civil War Man]

[nitpick] Sony, not Fox. Sony has Spider-Man. Fox has X-Men and FF.

I stand corrected. For some reason I was thinking the FF was Sony.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Saw it this weekend, and enjoyed it. Though it's almost sad that FOX has tried doing Spiderman off-and-on for over a decade now, with varying levels of success, and as soon as Marvel gets permission to use the character again they nail it on the first try.

As for my family, my sister and brother-in-law were a bit disappointed, and my mom generally liked it except for the fight at the end. She's hyped for the Black Panther movie, though. She particularly wants to see more of that member of the Dora Milaje who managed to steal the scene she was in despite having only one line (the one who walked up to Black Widow and went "Move, or you will be moved.").

In other news, if it weren't for the fact that Marvel hasn't announced it, and shows no signs of making it, I'd suspect, due in large part to the return of Thunderbolt Ross, that Civil War is setting up the groundwork for another Incredible Hulk movie. Between Avengers and Age of Ultron, Banner's been largely untouchable since he's had, at various points, SHIELD, Stark, and the Avengers covering for him. Even post-Age of Ultron, Fury and some of the remnants of SHIELD are probably running interference to make sure he isn't found. Post-Civil War, Ross could easily use the Sokovia Accords to give himself legal carte blanche to start hunting Banner again. The other Avengers at least, in theory, have the option of retiring, but Ross could argue that since the Hulk transformation can be triggered involuntarily, Banner is unable to make that choice, and so he automatically becomes a criminal unless he signs the Accords.

As far as I can tell, the Marvel comics don't necessarily exist in the MCU. The closest equivalent were superhero collector cards at some point in the 40s or 50s, Coulson has a collection of Captain America cards. No idea if there were any other heroes like that, though First Avenger did tease the original Human Torch at one point. Namor is right out (too many ties to Fantastic Four, which are owned by Fox), so you're not going to see any of the WWII-era Defenders.

The First Avenger did also show some kids reading Captain America #1 (the one where he punches Hitler on the cover) when he was stuck doing movies and pantos stateside.

An article i read a couple weeks ago said Hulk would be in Ragnarok, If he goes down well in a two man show we may have more chance. Plus since he's getting pulled off world in could lead to a live action Planet Hulk.

It was actually mentioned in CW that both Thor and Hulk are off the radar, it's a pity we don't know if all Banner was doing in the intervening time was hiding or doing something else entirely, and we won't know for another year.

2 interesting things that I've read- in the comics, it turns out that Ragnarok was actually a clone of Thor created by one Hank Pym using Stark tech, and used to fight against the anti-registration heroes in their CW.

Also, Natalie Portman won't be in the next Thor film. I hope Kat Dennings makes a return, though I doubt it will happen
As for a Black Widow film, I'm not against it per se, I just don't see how she can do it all on her own- not without supporting characters like Hawkeye and maybe Black Panther. The best angle I can think of is that she goes off looking for Banner after he went into hiding, and runs into remnants of HYDRA who were also looking for him in the process. If it turns out he went to Wakanda it would nicely dovetail with Panther's presence.

And since it had to have been HYDRA members that assisted Loki's attack on the Helicarrier, that would give both her and Hawkeye reason to find Banner before HYDRA does, especially if they get wind of it beforehand.

Just as long as they don't keep messing with her hair, it was fine in Avengers!

[Gandalf]

While DC is beating them to a literal "Chick Flick", Marvel's had Widow as a major part of the Avengers from the beginning. I am fully convinced Widow's success lead to WonderWoman's inclusion in BvS, and I hope to god that the WW Movie is better than anything they've given us of Batman or Superman in the last five years.

What makes you say that?

[Iroscato]

Saw it on Sunday and, oh my.

I do think this my new favourite film of the entire MCU - it certainly did the best job of making me grin like a big kid since the first Avengers movie. As a massive Spiderman fan, I thought his portrayal was note-perfect and it was a satisyfing end to a 14-year wait to see the character interact with other Marvel superheroes.

Everyone got their moment to shine, and everything clicked in just the right places for me. The Russo Brothers have done it again.

[biostem]

In the first Avengers film, who exactly ordered the nuclear strike on New York - was it simply the upper echelon of SHIELD, or was that some sort of UN/World Council? If so, at least in this instance, the Avengers themselves should be released form any responsibility, because those higher up than them obviously thought much greater collateral damage was acceptable.

[Lost Soal]

In the first Avengers film, who exactly ordered the nuclear strike on New York - was it simply the upper echelon of SHIELD, or was that some sort of UN/World Council? If so, at least in this instance, the Avengers themselves should be released form any responsibility, because those higher up than them obviously thought much greater collateral damage was acceptable.

It was the World Security Council who were the oversight for SHIELD. They also must have had some authority in the US itself since there was no worry about US retaliations for nuking their city

[biostem]

In the first Avengers film, who exactly ordered the nuclear strike on New York - was it simply the upper echelon of SHIELD, or was that some sort of UN/World Council? If so, at least in this instance, the Avengers themselves should be released form any responsibility, because those higher up than them obviously thought much greater collateral damage was acceptable.

It was the World Security Council who were the oversight for SHIELD. They also must have had some authority in the US itself since there was no worry about US retaliations for nuking their city

Then that irks me even more - Cap should've said to the general "Who was it who prevented the nuking of New York City? Oh yeah, it was us! You're welcome." Or "Would you have preferred that we allow Skullbones' suicide bomb go off at ground level?"

[Civil War Man]

Then that irks me even more - Cap should've said to the general "Who was it who prevented the nuking of New York City? Oh yeah, it was us! You're welcome." Or "Would you have preferred that we allow Skullbones' suicide bomb go off at ground level?"

Ross's concern trolling about collateral damage and civilian casualties was also pretty rich, considering that it's coming from the guy responsible for repeatedly sending armed military strike teams against Bruce Banner, resulting in several Hulk rampages in major population centers.

[NeoGoomba]

I don't think anyone in the entire movie mentioned Ultron by name. I wonder if that is intentional as the Avengers, namely Stark, would want to distance themselves from It.

Also, I loved when Stark asked Widow if she knew where Hulk and Thor were. Giving him that look and saying, "whose side do you think they'd be on?" followed by Stark's pained expression was a nice little hint at the respect Thor and Hulk had for Captain America.

[Civil War Man]

That, and the fact that there is no number large enough to count the number of times Hell would have to freeze over before Banner would agree to work for Thunderbolt Ross.

[biostem]

I don't think anyone in the entire movie mentioned Ultron by name. I wonder if that is intentional as the Avengers, namely Stark, would want to distance themselves from It.

It should be noted that, while Stark was indeed reckless, he was merely testing the AI program he found in the gem, when Ultron became self aware, "killed" Jarvis, then moved himself into the Iron Legion drones. There was no intention, at that point, to actually move Ultron into those bodies. I mean, Stark already had a bunch of Robot drones being run by an AI he implicitly trusted. The whole Ultron thing, IMO, was more about how the AI in the gem was simply more advanced and he wanted to unravel its workings...

[Gandalf]

"Don't secretly plug weird alien AI into massive network controlling (among other things) a robot army factory." Who knew?

Stark should be in the middle of SuperGitmo, thus showing that the real superpower is money.

[The Romulan Republic]

"Don't secretly plug weird alien AI into massive network controlling (among other things) a robot army factory." Who knew?

Stark should be in the middle of SuperGitmo, thus showing that the real superpower is money.

Batman proved that long ago.

[Solauren]

"Don't secretly plug weird alien AI into massive network controlling (among other things) a robot army factory." Who knew?

Stark should be in the middle of SuperGitmo, thus showing that the real superpower is money.

He did that while under the effects of Wanda's mind-whammy. She even said as much to Captain America.

That would probably keep him off the hook.

And as for going after Wanda for it, she didn't do it on US soil (and quite frankly, the soil she did it on went sub-orbital....), so she's off the hook.

[FaxModem1]

Someone posted their thoughts on how everything post-Avengers is Stark subconsciously screaming 'help me'.

Polygon

Someone help Tony Stark
The Marvel cinematic universe relies on the neglect of Iron Man
SHARE TWEET
OPINION
STAY CONNECTED. FOLLOW POLYGON NOW! ×
Profile Opinion by Ben Kuchera on May 20, 2016 at 12:30p
Click for more on how Polygon writes opinion pieces.
Tony Stark should have died at the end of the first Avengers film.

The final scene saw Iron Man take a nuclear weapon through an alien wormhole, detonate it in the middle of a pan-dimensional army and then, by luck, fall back down to Earth where he was caught by the Incredible Hulk. It was an act of self-sacrifice, as well as an answer to Captain America's earlier criticism of Stark's selfishness.

Stark didn't die, because heroes with that much star power can't die in films based on comic books. But the writers of the ensuing movies have been increasingly showing the strain that his survival has put on his mental health.



This was a major theme in Iron Man 3, with Pepper Potts struggling with the act of supporting Stark. She doesn't do a great job, but who would? Dealing with a partner who is struggling with anxiety and, arguably, PTSD in your relationship is hard enough for normal people, and that's before you get involved with someone whose symptoms include a pathological need to make technology that has the potential to kill you when he has a bad dream.

All that being said, I would still argue Potts often comes off as dismissive and, as we know from Civil War, the relationship ultimately ends.



Stark actually does try to reach out and tell someone about all this, but unfortunately Bruce Banner falls asleep during the session shown in Iron Man 3's post-credits scene. He also states he's not "that kind of doctor," and fair enough. But he should be able to listen to his friend and maybe provide a referral?

These characters are told and shown over and over again that Tony Stark is struggling in real, profound ways, and yet no one thinks to ask for the proverbial keys for the Iron Man suit for a week or two while he talks to a professional? Things only get worse as the movies continue.

The Scarlet Witch's vision from the second Avengers film was only able to unsettle Iron Man so profoundly because of his these unresolved feelings. He wants to wrap the globe in a sort of anti-Thanos condom to keep everyone safe, and that leads directly to the creation of Ultron.



The narratives of these films loop around each other fairly often. Stark was first asked to hand over the technology behind the Iron Man platform in the second Iron Man film, and refused. The idea of a fist wrapped around the planet was first seen is Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and Steve Rogers both rejected the concept and ultimately found the project was under Hydra's control.

The creation of Ultron may have been Stark's attempt to give himself enough room to take a breath, but it led to worldwide crisis and ultimately a nearly world-ending battle in Sokovia, the fallout of which is picked up in Captain America: Civil War.

EVERYONE ASSUMES IRON MAN WILL BE FINE

What's interesting is that Stark is the only Avenger who seems to be struggling with his mental health in a way that shows so openly that he needs help from a professional. Banner knows he can't be trusted with his own power and has disappeared. Steve Rogers has begun to open up to his friends and seems much more comfortable in the present day. The Captain also seems happy to have Romanov's support when Peggy Carter passes away. Multiple characters are shown checking in with Wanda Maximoff to make sure she's processing what's happened.

Other characters are struggling, but they're struggling in ways that seem to suggest they'll ultimately learn how to deal with their feelings and they have the support and love they need. Everyone assumes Iron Man will be fine, and that neglect is part of the reason we see him getting worse throughout the films.

Tony Stark is a man who spent $600 million to come up with a way to work through the death of his parents with technology. He's jumpy. He complains of pain. He becomes so frustrated with his inability to express himself that his head darts around, searching for the right words.

He may frame the situation as wanted to be kept in check by the UN, but the reality is that he's screaming the words "help me" to everyone around him, and no one is listening.

Potts has left, his collection of Iron Man suits has been destroyed and he's alone after having caused multiple terrible situations. Situations that, in fact put him in fight-or-flight battles that likely exacerbated his still-untreated mental health issues from the previous films.

We see situations where Steve Rogers is sensitive enough to know footage from Sokovia is hurtful for Wanda, and she's given time to heal and learn, but everyone in Stark's life reacts to his ongoing struggles with antagonism or abandonment. Of course he's hitting rock bottom and feels backed into a corner: Stark is having an increasingly impossible time processing his own trauma while continually being put into violent situations as the direct result of his own attempts to work through his pain.

"Tony’s struggle with anxiety is poignant because it allows us to realize that he is, in fact, still human," Dr. Andrea Letamendi, a clinical psychologist, wrote back in 2013. "To this end, it doesn’t matter to me if his panic attacks are indicative of clinical PTSD, complex PTSD, subclinical anxiety disorder or another psychiatric category we can use as a label. The point is this: A brilliant, powerful, and tough guy can be vulnerable, scared, and confused. Tony Stark is a superhero with the psychological makeup of a human."

This is all interesting stuff, and the writers and directors of the Marvel cinematic universe continue to look into this aspect of Stark's character for richer stories and a more human tone, but it's frustrating how many times he's reached out to those around him and they don't seem to see how badly he's suffering.

Captain America: Civil War is framed as a battle between Captain America and Iron Man, but it's really a war between Iron Man and his own demons. Loki is the only existential threat the Avengers have faced. The rest of the problems they're forced to solve have been caused, directly or indirectly, by Stark's own attempts at "fixing" himself.

It's not even that Stark hasn't asked for help in the previous films. He has, multiple times. But those around him, until the final monologue in Civil War where Rogers promises to be there for him, don't seem to have been willing to listen.

And it's costing everyone dearly.

The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, Polygon as an organization.

[Simon_Jester]

Huh. That's a good point and ties into a lovely lesson I hope everyone learns as we progress into the 21st century:

Refusing to deal with people's mental health issues costs everyone. Not dealing with your own issues costs you, and others. Not encouraging others to deal with their issues costs you, and them. And innocent random people. In real life the consequences generally don't involve insane rampaging robots (yet), but they're still real.

[NeoGoomba]

That was one of the things I enjoyed the most out of IM3: the toll on Stark. They have really showed that he is human, and can waver and need others like everyone else. It looked like he was getting close to some sort of self-actualization at the end of IM3, but Ultron probably shattered any emotional strength he regained.

Rogers is a trained soldier augmented mentally and physically. Thor is a warrior god. Black Widow is a conditioned assassin. Stark was just a vanilla man thrust into awful situations, and I'm glad they show the stress it all puts on him. But Kutchera is right. It's pretty awful that no one in-universe has seen his need for assistance. His devil-may-care attitude has everyone fooled but that kid in IMp.

[Terralthra]

I liked the letter, particularly. Steve acknowledges that Stark was trying to do what he thought was right, takes accountability for his part in the multi-part catastrophe. He doesn't try to guilt-trip Stark, nor blame him. It was a letter from a friend with whom there is a rift, conciliatory and caring. It was the perfect touch, I think.

[hunter5]

Someone posted their thoughts on how everything post-Avengers is Stark subconsciously screaming 'help me'.

Polygon

Someone help Tony Stark
The Marvel cinematic universe relies on the neglect of Iron Man
SHARE TWEET
OPINION
STAY CONNECTED. FOLLOW POLYGON NOW! ×
Profile Opinion by Ben Kuchera on May 20, 2016 at 12:30p
Click for more on how Polygon writes opinion pieces.
Tony Stark should have died at the end of the first Avengers film.

The final scene saw Iron Man take a nuclear weapon through an alien wormhole, detonate it in the middle of a pan-dimensional army and then, by luck, fall back down to Earth where he was caught by the Incredible Hulk. It was an act of self-sacrifice, as well as an answer to Captain America's earlier criticism of Stark's selfishness.

Stark didn't die, because heroes with that much star power can't die in films based on comic books. But the writers of the ensuing movies have been increasingly showing the strain that his survival has put on his mental health.



This was a major theme in Iron Man 3, with Pepper Potts struggling with the act of supporting Stark. She doesn't do a great job, but who would? Dealing with a partner who is struggling with anxiety and, arguably, PTSD in your relationship is hard enough for normal people, and that's before you get involved with someone whose symptoms include a pathological need to make technology that has the potential to kill you when he has a bad dream.

All that being said, I would still argue Potts often comes off as dismissive and, as we know from Civil War, the relationship ultimately ends.



Stark actually does try to reach out and tell someone about all this, but unfortunately Bruce Banner falls asleep during the session shown in Iron Man 3's post-credits scene. He also states he's not "that kind of doctor," and fair enough. But he should be able to listen to his friend and maybe provide a referral?

These characters are told and shown over and over again that Tony Stark is struggling in real, profound ways, and yet no one thinks to ask for the proverbial keys for the Iron Man suit for a week or two while he talks to a professional? Things only get worse as the movies continue.

The Scarlet Witch's vision from the second Avengers film was only able to unsettle Iron Man so profoundly because of his these unresolved feelings. He wants to wrap the globe in a sort of anti-Thanos condom to keep everyone safe, and that leads directly to the creation of Ultron.



The narratives of these films loop around each other fairly often. Stark was first asked to hand over the technology behind the Iron Man platform in the second Iron Man film, and refused. The idea of a fist wrapped around the planet was first seen is Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and Steve Rogers both rejected the concept and ultimately found the project was under Hydra's control.

The creation of Ultron may have been Stark's attempt to give himself enough room to take a breath, but it led to worldwide crisis and ultimately a nearly world-ending battle in Sokovia, the fallout of which is picked up in Captain America: Civil War.

EVERYONE ASSUMES IRON MAN WILL BE FINE

What's interesting is that Stark is the only Avenger who seems to be struggling with his mental health in a way that shows so openly that he needs help from a professional. Banner knows he can't be trusted with his own power and has disappeared. Steve Rogers has begun to open up to his friends and seems much more comfortable in the present day. The Captain also seems happy to have Romanov's support when Peggy Carter passes away. Multiple characters are shown checking in with Wanda Maximoff to make sure she's processing what's happened.

Other characters are struggling, but they're struggling in ways that seem to suggest they'll ultimately learn how to deal with their feelings and they have the support and love they need. Everyone assumes Iron Man will be fine, and that neglect is part of the reason we see him getting worse throughout the films.

Tony Stark is a man who spent $600 million to come up with a way to work through the death of his parents with technology. He's jumpy. He complains of pain. He becomes so frustrated with his inability to express himself that his head darts around, searching for the right words.

He may frame the situation as wanted to be kept in check by the UN, but the reality is that he's screaming the words "help me" to everyone around him, and no one is listening.

Potts has left, his collection of Iron Man suits has been destroyed and he's alone after having caused multiple terrible situations. Situations that, in fact put him in fight-or-flight battles that likely exacerbated his still-untreated mental health issues from the previous films.

We see situations where Steve Rogers is sensitive enough to know footage from Sokovia is hurtful for Wanda, and she's given time to heal and learn, but everyone in Stark's life reacts to his ongoing struggles with antagonism or abandonment. Of course he's hitting rock bottom and feels backed into a corner: Stark is having an increasingly impossible time processing his own trauma while continually being put into violent situations as the direct result of his own attempts to work through his pain.

"Tony’s struggle with anxiety is poignant because it allows us to realize that he is, in fact, still human," Dr. Andrea Letamendi, a clinical psychologist, wrote back in 2013. "To this end, it doesn’t matter to me if his panic attacks are indicative of clinical PTSD, complex PTSD, subclinical anxiety disorder or another psychiatric category we can use as a label. The point is this: A brilliant, powerful, and tough guy can be vulnerable, scared, and confused. Tony Stark is a superhero with the psychological makeup of a human."

This is all interesting stuff, and the writers and directors of the Marvel cinematic universe continue to look into this aspect of Stark's character for richer stories and a more human tone, but it's frustrating how many times he's reached out to those around him and they don't seem to see how badly he's suffering.

Captain America: Civil War is framed as a battle between Captain America and Iron Man, but it's really a war between Iron Man and his own demons. Loki is the only existential threat the Avengers have faced. The rest of the problems they're forced to solve have been caused, directly or indirectly, by Stark's own attempts at "fixing" himself.

It's not even that Stark hasn't asked for help in the previous films. He has, multiple times. But those around him, until the final monologue in Civil War where Rogers promises to be there for him, don't seem to have been willing to listen.

And it's costing everyone dearly.

The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, Polygon as an organization.

This begs the question did he ever really recover from the kidnapping and initial brush with mortality from the beginning of Iron Man?

[Elheru Aran]

This begs the question did he ever really recover from the kidnapping and initial brush with mortality from the beginning of Iron Man?

It's a good question, but that doesn't seem to have been as traumatic as the whole flying-into-deep-space-and-almost-DYING thing he went through in Avengers. He seems to have gained a certain degree of closure with the IM1 situation by finding out that Obadiah Stane was behind his kidnapping and defeating him, as well as flying all the way over to Afghanistan (or wherever it was) and beating up on his former captors.

There's certainly no question that it left its mark, but it's more in his past than the whole thing with Avengers was, which was only compounded by the craziness with AIM, nearly causing the deaths of his whole team in Age of Ultron, and breaking up with Pepper.

[biostem]

While I can sympathize with Stark to some degree, it's hard for me to feel too badly for him because he actively chooses to continue hero work and he has total control over his powers and how they manifest, (in that he designs the suits himself and can add or remove features as he sees fit). The fact that he's a multi-billionaire doesn't hurt, either.

I wonder how feasible it would be for him to buy a bunch of land somewhere and staff it with de-weaponized/more simplistic Iron legion drones to grow food for the poor...

[Khaat]

Well, he was happy to tell Christine Everheart about Stark-tech "intellicrops". Robot drones doing the actual farm-work probably isn't as PR-friendly (especially after the whole thing with Ultron).

[Vendetta]

"Tony Stark's Self Destructive Tendencies" is the villain of all three Iron Man films, really.

[biostem]

Well, he was happy to tell Christine Everheart about Stark-tech "intellicrops". Robot drones doing the actual farm-work probably isn't as PR-friendly (especially after the whole thing with Ultron).

Make 'em look like cute little Wall-E's and you'll be fine.