Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

[The Romulan Republic]

Mostly I was annoyed that the Kryptonian ship could A) berth an unholy abomination to begin with, b) had only fingerprint security, that can be fooled by chopping them off and sticking them over yours. 3) only has an 'are you sure?' prompt for creating illegal, banned, unholy abominations.

I maybe forgetting if Lex had to do a lot more jury rigging to get that happening.

A) Never bothered me. Man of Steel clearly set up that this universe Kryptonian technology is based heavily on genetic manipulation and not crystals; there was 9ft tall Kryptonina on Zod's crew, he was clearly engineered plus of course the whole genetic predetermination birth control thing.

I don't think its the fact that they have genetic engineering capabilities on their ship that's the issue, so much as the fact that they have the capability to engineer an illegal monstrosity like Doomsday.

B) Yeah but this was just a scout ship that was thousand's of years old. It wasn't something that they would have considered top secret. I kinda looked at it like their version of the ISS versus say a nuclear submarine.

The fact that its an outdated ship, if anything, just makes it more bizarre that it could so easily create something so powerful and dangerous. Though maybe even basic Kryptonian technology is that good. Still, its like finding a WWII era plane not only possessing but capable of constructing its own nuclear weapons.

C) He had Zod's override command key to get all that done; could be the supreme general of all armed forces in Krypton had special leeway if he could justify it for security reasons.

That, on the other hand, makes a fair amount of sense.

[Galvatron]

Does Luthor make more sense as a character in regards to his motivations and actions, especially regarding alien technology?

Lex's manipulations and machinations are laid bare (gives Lois a great more to do too). There's no ambiguity in the Ultimate Cut, Lex is pulling all the strings.

I just saw it and you were so right.

All of the ambiguities about the incident in Africa, the capitol bombing and the motivations of both heroes were so much clearer in this. The theatrical version completely gutted key scenes that advanced the story to make room for the fight in the second half.

[Crown]

I don't think its the fact that they have genetic engineering capabilities on their ship that's the issue, so much as the fact that they have the capability to engineer an illegal monstrosity like Doomsday.
<snip>
The fact that its an outdated ship, if anything, just makes it more bizarre that it could so easily create something so powerful and dangerous. Though maybe even basic Kryptonian technology is that good. Still, its like finding a WWII era plane not only possessing but capable of constructing its own nuclear weapons.

I view it much like Star Wars; essentially they've been technologically stagnant for a very long time. It's reinforced in MoS when Jor El is giving Kal a crash course on Kryptonian history that their epoch of expansion was well behind them and they had essentially stopped almost everything. Sure there were some new discoveries (perhaps the Phantom Zone) but essentially they were not developing or progressing any more so not too surprising that a ship which possess a 'genesis chamber' would be able to mutate Kryptonian genetic material.

I would like to point out that I'm trying to argue that what's presented is internally consistent with in universe not that it's 'good' or 'correct', I mean it bugs me to no end that a space fairing civilisation somehow elects their version of Sarah Palin to their High Council and end up drill-baby-drilling their way to extinction, but that's the canon so ... *shrug*

[Lost Soal]

I don't think its the fact that they have genetic engineering capabilities on their ship that's the issue, so much as the fact that they have the capability to engineer an illegal monstrosity like Doomsday.
<snip>
The fact that its an outdated ship, if anything, just makes it more bizarre that it could so easily create something so powerful and dangerous. Though maybe even basic Kryptonian technology is that good. Still, its like finding a WWII era plane not only possessing but capable of constructing its own nuclear weapons.

I view it much like Star Wars; essentially they've been technologically stagnant for a very long time. It's reinforced in MoS when Jor El is giving Kal a crash course on Kryptonian history that their epoch of expansion was well behind them and they had essentially stopped almost everything. Sure there were some new discoveries (perhaps the Phantom Zone) but essentially they were not developing or progressing any more so not too surprising that a ship which possess a 'genesis chamber' would be able to mutate Kryptonian genetic material.

I would like to point out that I'm trying to argue that what's presented is internally consistent with in universe not that it's 'good' or 'correct', I mean it bugs me to no end that a space fairing civilisation somehow elects their version of Sarah Palin to their High Council and end up drill-baby-drilling their way to extinction, but that's the canon so ... *shrug*

The whole point of Zods rampage in MoS was that the Genesis Ship was completely useless without the genetic codex which Jor El stole and implanted into Clark. So this ship which can't create new Kryptonians without Clarks blood can create an abomination which is forbidden by Kryptonian Law.

Edited to add a space

[Crown]

The whole point of Zods rampage in MoS was that the Genesis Ship was completely useless without the genetic codex which Jor El stole and implanted into Clark.

If that were true then why would scout ships even have a genesis chamber? These ships were sent all over the galaxy during Krypton's era of expansion. It stands to reason that they either had a 'limited' version of the Codex or otherwise each scout ship would have a chamber which was essentially useless. What a horrible design.

So this ship which can't create new Kryptonians without Clarks blood can create an abomination which is forbidden by Kryptonian Law.

It's clearly mutating Zod's genetic template (and mixing some of Lex's genetic material in there as well). The speciality of the Codex (and thus Clark) is that it contains all possible Kryptonian genetic templates; soldiers, scientists, labourers, artists, etc, etc.

[Khaat]

The whole point of Zods rampage in MoS was that the Genesis Ship was completely useless without the genetic codex which Jor El stole and implanted into Clark.

If that were true then why would scout ships even have a genesis chamber? These ships were sent all over the galaxy during Krypton's era of expansion. It stands to reason that they either had a 'limited' version of the Codex or otherwise each scout ship would have a chamber which was essentially useless. What a horrible design.

We did see in MoS that there was a crew "stasis chamber" open, and another with a long-dead Kryptonian colonist's body. It's possible the missing Kryptonian removed the "colony codex" from the ship when they left. Lost it in the snow outside before her super-powers manifested, or fell down a crevasse and never got enough yellow sun light before dying?

[Galvatron]

I have a feeling the codex will factor into Superman's resurrection and that it can only be used once so it will no longer be an option any time his life is in jeopardy moving forward. I hope Lois can somehow bring back the Jor-El AI in the ship to they can do it together.

As for the Kryptonian stuff, my theory is that they discovered that other stars could endow their people with godlike power so they outlawed the practice of interstellar colonization in order to prevent themselves from becoming a race of supermen and dominating the universe.

[Crown]

If that were true then why would scout ships even have a genesis chamber? These ships were sent all over the galaxy during Krypton's era of expansion. It stands to reason that they either had a 'limited' version of the Codex or otherwise each scout ship would have a chamber which was essentially useless. What a horrible design.

We did see in MoS that there was a crew "stasis chamber" open, and another with a long-dead Kryptonian colonist's body. It's possible the missing Kryptonian removed the "colony codex" from the ship when they left. Lost it in the snow outside before her super-powers manifested, or fell down a crevasse and never got enough yellow sun light before dying?

Yeah, there's a prequel comic (which might be ret-conned now) where the story goes one of the Kryptonian crew was a stow-away criminal who started murdering the rest. Another crew member awoke and battled him just as they were nearing Earth (and thus the yellow sun) which damaged the ship causing it to crash while still trying to repair its self (Kryptonian ships are partly alive that way). Their fight could have destroyed the "colony codex".

[Crown]

I have a feeling the codex will factor into Superman's resurrection and that it can only be used once so it will no longer be an option any time his life is in jeopardy moving forward. I hope Lois can somehow bring back the Jor-El AI in the ship to they can do it together.

Looking forward to that theory on the big screen!

As for the Kryptonian stuff, my theory is that they discovered that other stars could endow their people with godlike power so they outlawed the practice of interstellar colonization in order to prevent themselves from becoming a race of supermen and dominating the universe.

That makes me like them!

[Galvatron]

They seldom use my ideas.

And I like to think that the ancient Kryptonians were morally enlightened. MoS was vague about it, but it did reveal that what Jor-El and Lara did with Kal-El would have been, at best, frowned upon by their own people.

[Ralin]

As for the Kryptonian stuff, my theory is that they discovered that other stars could endow their people with godlike power so they outlawed the practice of interstellar colonization in order to prevent themselves from becoming a race of supermen and dominating the universe.

That makes me like them!

Alternatively, maybe they wanted to avoid all/large chunks of their species from developing godlike powers for pragmatic reasons. Imagine trying to enforce the law and maintain order on an entire planet's worth (or more) of Supermans!

That's also pretty much why I figured Zod was determined to terraform Earth in Man of Steel. He's there to preserve Krypton, not radically change it. Even if that radical change would make for happier and more powerful Kryptonians.

If that were true then why would scout ships even have a genesis chamber? These ships were sent all over the galaxy during Krypton's era of expansion. It stands to reason that they either had a 'limited' version of the Codex or otherwise each scout ship would have a chamber which was essentially useless. What a horrible design.

Depending on exactly what the travel times were and how much it was an one-way trip I guess they could have withheld the Codex for political reasons to maintain control over the colonists or something like that? Like, they would have doled out the information needed to use the genesis chamber later on as needed, possibly using some sort of unbreakable encryption, all to keep the colonists (and anyone else) from having direct access to it.

Dunno, just spitballing ideas really.

[Galvatron]

Alternatively, maybe they wanted to avoid all/large chunks of their species from developing godlike powers for pragmatic reasons. Imagine trying to enforce the law and maintain order on an entire planet's worth (or more) of Supermans!

That too. The prequel comic alluded to some tensions with Thanagar as well. Imagine if the ancient Kryptonians decided that colonization wasn't worth the constant threat of war with the Hawkmen or the Green Lanterns.

All these ideas are now on the table in this DC cinematic universe.

Depending on exactly what the travel times were and how much it was an one-way trip I guess they could have withheld the Codex for political reasons to maintain control over the colonists or something like that? Like, they would have doled out the information needed to use the genesis chamber later on as needed, possibly using some sort of unbreakable encryption, all to keep the colonists (and anyone else) from having direct access to it.

That could explain why none of the colonies survived. They simply died out because they couldn't reproduce.

[Crown]

Question; in the UC of the movie do we think the Communion scene is part of Lex's education by the onboard database or real time communication?

[Crown]

Depending on exactly what the travel times were and how much it was an one-way trip I guess they could have withheld the Codex for political reasons to maintain control over the colonists or something like that? Like, they would have doled out the information needed to use the genesis chamber later on as needed, possibly using some sort of unbreakable encryption, all to keep the colonists (and anyone else) from having direct access to it.

That could explain why none of the colonies survived. They simply died out because they couldn't reproduce.

I don't have the comic to hand at the moment, but the Wiki says each scout ship had a 'Growth Codex' on board to birth embryos to assist in the TerraKryptonforming. As I say I don't have the comic at hand at the moment so I can't comment on the accuracy of that claim.

[Khaat]

That's also pretty much why I figured Zod was determined to terraform Earth in Man of Steel. He's there to preserve Krypton, not radically change it. Even if that radical change would make for happier and more powerful Kryptonians.

Zod's plan was from Zeist! oh, come on, someone has to get that!

Still if Zod had been committed to the "old ways" (which, let's face it, he wasn't because he started a revolt against the very thing he's championing later!), the only reason to use Earth as the foundation is "lazy." And, changing the atmosphere and gravity of Earth wouldn't change the sun's yellow light.... Not a big thinker, that Zod.

I don't have the comic to hand at the moment, but the Wiki says each scout ship had a 'Growth Codex' on board to birth embryos to assist in the TerraKryptonforming. As I say I don't have the comic at hand at the moment so I can't comment on the accuracy of that claim.

Maybe the "colonists were limited "mules" to do all the basic work, to be replaced later with more developed Kryptonians?

[Gandalf]

Well this is now easily one of the best comic book films ever.

Question; in the UC of the movie do we think the Communion scene is part of Lex's education by the onboard database or real time communication?

I assumed it was some sort of brief communication, if only because of the scene's title.

[Galvatron]

Lex had just failed in his grand scheme and then unleashed an uncontrollable monster. My guess is that he was looking for help and essentially sold his soul (and his world) to Darkseid for it. Ding, ding, ding.

[Ralin]

Still if Zod had been committed to the "old ways" (which, let's face it, he wasn't because he started a revolt against the very thing he's championing later!), the only reason to use Earth as the foundation is "lazy."

Going off what I remember about Zod ranting about 'degenerate bloodlines' and stuff I think Zod was basically the secular equivalent of a fundamentalist. He saw himself as trying to bring Krypton back to its roots and the way it used to be in the golden age. Krypton in the past may or may not have been anything like what Zod thought it was, but it damned well didn't have flying supermen with laser eyes.

And who knows how common suitable planets are, or how feasible it would be to reach them?

And, changing the atmosphere and gravity of Earth wouldn't change the sun's yellow light.... Not a big thinker, that Zod.

Yes well, it's a superhero movie.

[Galvatron]

And who knows how common suitable planets are, or how feasible it would be to reach them?

They have world engines that can terraform both the atmosphere and gravity of other planets so I assume any planet within the "Goldilocks Zone" of any reachable star system would be suitable. And Zod's people were able to modify the "phantom drive" of their prison ship into an FTL drive which allowed them to reach (IIRC) "all" of the lost Kryptonian colonies in less than 33 years, so I also assume their range and speed would have allowed them to go virtually anywhere they wanted to.

That's a lot of planets. Hell, the ancient scout ship contained the accumulated knowledge from 100,000 worlds.

[Ralin]

They have world engines that can terraform both the atmosphere and gravity of other planets so I assume any planet within the "Goldilocks Zone" of any reachable star system would be suitable. And Zod's people were able to modify the "phantom drive" of their prison ship into an FTL drive which allowed them to reach (IIRC) "all" of the lost Kryptonian colonies in less than 33 years, so I also assume their range and speed would have allowed them to go virtually anywhere they wanted to.

That's a lot of planets. Hell, the ancient scout ship contained the accumulated knowledge from 100,000 worlds.

Well, okay, that doesn't make much sense then.

[Galvatron]

I assume Zod could have chosen to spare Earth and terraform Mars or even Venus, but he chose to commit genocide instead. He's not a sympathetic character, no matter what Joe Quesada thinks.

[Ralin]

Yeah, I gotta figure that there was some reason the movie didn't make clear why doing that wasn't feasible, because that honestly makes no sense otherwise. It means that Zod was deliberately antagonizing Superman and giving him every reason to prevent Krypton's rebirth when otherwise Clark has no reason not to just cooperate and give Zod what he wants so Zod can go away and build New Krypton somewhere else. That's incredibly stupid, and moreover stupid enough to endanger the one thing Zod cares about most.

Or maybe it was because he felt compelled to wipe out the product of Jor El's 'heresy' in having a naturally born child? Still seems like he could have done that without risking the whole project.

That said...

“He wanted to save his race, and Superman didn’t let him,”

"KRYPTON HAD ITS CHANCE!"

Well I mean that is true. The Bridge Between Two Worlds everyone!

[Galvatron]

Zod didn't exactly make a compelling case for his plan by drowning Superman in an ocean of human skulls either. He then rejected AI Jor-El's proposal to share Earth because it would be too inconvenient for the Kryptonians to adapt to the atmosphere like baby Clark did.

Fuck Zod. He was evil.

[Tribble]

Zod's failures were kinda the point Jor El was making - that by genetically engineering and conditioning everyone to fulfill certain functions the Kryptionians had become decadent and unable to adapt to new circumstances. It shouldn't come as much of a surprise that a genetically engineered super-soldier programmed to defend Krypton from all threats at all costs (including from itself if necessary) in the quickest and most expedient manner possible was not the best person to handle the particular situation he was in.

Besides which, Zod's original plan was to wipe out a good chunk of his own people in order to "purify" them, considered Clark's very existence to be blasphemy and was even willing to blow up Clark's spacecraft knowing full well the Codex was inside it because he didn't want Clark to escape. Zod didn't strike me as the kind of guy that'd be willing to come to some sort of deal even if that would have been the better option.

[Galvatron]

I have a feeling the codex will factor into Superman's resurrection and that it can only be used once so it will no longer be an option any time his life is in jeopardy moving forward. I hope Lois can somehow bring back the Jor-El AI in the ship to they can do it together.

Looking forward to that theory on the big screen!

It would also be nice touch to include Martha so she could actually "meet" Clark's biological father and speak with him. Too bad Jor-El didn't create a Lara AI as well.

After having seen the Ultimate Editon twice now, I still wonder why Lex supplied KGBeast with exotic ammunition. If they were tipped with Kryptonite and intended to be used against Superman then that would make more sense, but the SecDef told Lois that they were only made of a metal developed by LexCorp.

It seems to me that leaving evidence that could be traced back to his company didn't play into Lex's scheme in any way, so why didn't he just let his mercs use ordinary ammo?