MCU Avengers vs DCU Justice League

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah.

I guess it's that Wonder Woman is so often not classed as a hand to hand warrior of the first class, not "up there," but on some very important level I think she ought to be, she's got the background for it. Sure, she's more of a guile-and-weapons fighter compared to the sheer brutal strength of entities like the Hulk and Doomsday, but really?

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm mostly only familiar with WW from the new movie and the Justice League cartoon, so its hard for me to say where she falls relative to the others historically. But in the new film, she's, if not a Superman-level combatant, pretty close, at least if its a hand to hand fight on the ground. She was Spoiler

able to block shots from Doomsday, went effectively solo against him for a little while (because Superman was off saving Lois and getting the spear and Batman wasn't bringing much to that fight except tactics until the very end) without serious injury and indeed seemed to enjoy it at times, and was able to temporarily injure and immobilize Doomsday (the former by amputating an arm with her sword, the latter with the lasso).

Three main things keep me from putting her on Superman's level-

1. Overall, the powers she demonstrates aren't as versatile (no actual flight, demonstrable suborbital capability, supersenses, eye beams, or resurrection). This does not mean she couldn't hold her own with Superman purely as a melee brawler, of course.

2. Their is not yet any evidence WW can actually come back from the dead, in the highly unlikely event that something manages to kill her.

3. Its not clear how much of her success was due to her equipment. Superman fought bare-handed. She didn't.

That said, I think that, leaving aside their other abilities and looking at it in terms of just hand to hand combat capability, WW with her equipment is roughly equal to Superman unarmed from what I've seen.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, looking back on it, I think if WW has her full range of equipment (shield, bracelets, lasso, and sword), she could whup Hulk's ass just fine.

Thor would actually be the tougher opponent, both because he's tactically probably smarter than Hulk, and he seems to have somewhat greater mobility (not on Superman levels, but more than WW) and could hit her with lightning strikes from out of her range.

Edit: Also, see WW Spoiler

amputating one of Doomsday's limbs. I'm guessing if it can cut a Kryptonian abomination, it can probably cut Hulk, though admittedly I can't be sure (has anything ever cut film Hulk's skin?). Doomsday could grow back the limb. As far as I know (because its never been put to the test in the Avengers films) MCU Hulk couldn't.

[NeoGoomba]

Hulk, even when Banner isn't in control, isn't a pure rampaging beast, nor is he an idiot. He does have a devious cunning when it comes to combat, and he has the raw power to use the environment to his advantage. When fighting Abomination, the only foe so far that could surpass him for strength, he used cars as boxing gloves to augment his strength. He couldn't out punch Blonsky either, and he knew it, so he choked him out using a chain. Depending on the environment the fight takes place, WW could be in for some crazy surprises when Hulk starts bending girders around her or hurling garbage trucks.

Do I think he can solo her? I don't know. I'd say he's got a puncher's chance, especially if she underestimates him as some mindless brute.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think Thor or Hulk could give WW a decent fight depending on circumstances. I'd tend to favour her over both of them, but I think Hulk might be able to take her, or at least give her a good fight (particularly if she was also unarmed), and Thor in particular I think would have a very good chance if he kept his distance and just hammered her with lightning from range (he probably wouldn't though- I don't think he'd be able to resist going hand to hand with her).

[Crazedwraith]

I think the Justice League or the Trinity that we've seen at least should be victorious quite easily. Even if I prefer and enjoy the Avengers more.

Still give Iron Man prep time and access to Kryptonite. There's no reason he couldn't make a KryptonianBuster suit equally if not more as effective as Batman's.
Spoiler

Though it was only Superman going easy at first that let Batman win that fight. Tony might not get the same leeway

[NeoGoomba]

Yeah, Iron Man could probably make a pretty effective SuperBuster armor. It seemed that Batfleck's armor was more just to keep him alive and augment his strength some. He was still dependent on external weaponry. Whereas I wouldn't be surprised if Stark and Jarvis weaponized the Kryptonite radiation itself and made some kind of beam weapon out of it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, give Tony access to Superman V Batman's world, its knowledge, resources, and technology, and sufficient time, and I have no doubt he could put together something to kill a Kryptonian. In a cave. With a box of scraps. Wouldn't even put it past him to figure out how to make synthetic Kryptonite so they have an unlimited supply or something.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past Batman to build an anti-Iron Man weapon, like a missile or an EMP that knocks out Tony's suit or something like that.

I'm assuming for this thread its the characters as we know them fighting, not with unlimited resources and prep-time.

If we give them the latter, you know its just going to turn into an arms race between Batman and Iron Man.

[Cykeisme]

Yeah, Iron Man could probably make a pretty effective SuperBuster armor. It seemed that Batfleck's armor was more just to keep him alive and augment his strength some. He was still dependent on external weaponry. Whereas I wouldn't be surprised if Stark and Jarvis weaponized the Kryptonite radiation itself and made some kind of beam weapon out of it.

That does make sense.. presumably Kryptonite gives off some EM or exotic particle radiation. Even if he couldn't completely synthesize it, I imagine Stark would be able to make some sort of beam weapon with a chunk of the green rock in it, that shines out a focused beam of the radiation.

[Kojiro]

Also, looking back on it, I think if WW has her full range of equipment (shield, bracelets, lasso, and sword), she could whup Hulk's ass just fine.

I don't think anyone handles the Hulk just fine. Perhaps some of the cosmic level beings but Hulk is a pushover for no one.

Thor would actually be the tougher opponent, both because he's tactically probably smarter than Hulk, and he seems to have somewhat greater mobility (not on Superman levels, but more than WW) and could hit her with lightning strikes from out of her range.

Thor I think is going to be her downfall. They're both stupidly tough, old and come from ancient, mystical warrior societies. Either that or they fight it out, Red Sonja/Conan style until they both collapse from exhaustion days later with a new found respect for each other.

Edit: Also, see WW amputating one of Doomsday's limbs. I'm guessing if it can cut a Kryptonian abomination, it can probably cut Hulk, though admittedly I can't be sure (has anything ever cut film Hulk's skin?). Doomsday could grow back the limb. As far as I know (because its never been put to the test in the Avengers films) MCU Hulk couldn't.

We've seen Hulk cut before, against Abomination. Otherwise we've never seen Hulk actually bleed. But there's a few things to consider there. First up, the interaction between her sword and Kryptonians may be different to how it would interact with Hulk. Kryptonians are vulnerable to magic, which if the blade is magical, it may circumvent the Kryptonian armour. Thor can have his face rammed into a mountain side by Iron Man (at flight speed no less), then ground facefirst up the mountain and come away without so much as a scratch. A pudgy old Asgardian can grab a steel blade in his fingers and crush it like cardboard but a small Asgardian dagger pierces Thor with little effort. In short, it seems that Kryptonian 'super armour' is ineffective against magic.

Now that doesn't mean Hulk won't be cut, but we never saw Mjolnir do any special damage to him, and if Diana's sword is going to have an analog it's going to be Asgardian weaponry. But it's magic so hey, who knows what the rules are really. We've got Dr Strange (who looks fucking perfect) coming up though, so it's safe to say that the MCU is not devoid of magic. What Asgardians use I suspect is some hybrid form of magic and tech. After all Thor doesn't tell Jane there's no such thing as magic, but that magic and science are one for his people.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think anyone handles the Hulk just fine. Perhaps some of the cosmic level beings but Hulk is a pushover for no one.

Are you basing this on comics Hulk rather than film Hulk? Film Hulk has never fought a cosmic being, unless Thor/Loki count, so we have no idea if he could hold his own.

Thor I think is going to be her downfall. They're both stupidly tough, old and come from ancient, mystical warrior societies. Either that or they fight it out, Red Sonja/Conan style until they both collapse from exhaustion days later with a new found respect for each other.

Yeah, I can see them being best of friends once the dust settles.

We've seen Hulk cut before, against Abomination. Otherwise we've never seen Hulk actually bleed.

Interesting. That actually raises my estimation of WW's chances.

But there's a few things to consider there. First up, the interaction between her sword and Kryptonians may be different to how it would interact with Hulk. Kryptonians are vulnerable to magic, which if the blade is magical, it may circumvent the Kryptonian armour. Thor can have his face rammed into a mountain side by Iron Man (at flight speed no less), then ground facefirst up the mountain and come away without so much as a scratch. A pudgy old Asgardian can grab a steel blade in his fingers and crush it like cardboard but a small Asgardian dagger pierces Thor with little effort. In short, it seems that Kryptonian 'super armour' is ineffective against magic.

Their is no indication whatsoever, to my knowledge, that their is a special Kryptonian vulnerability to magic in the films, besides the fact that WW's sword cut Doomsday. And in that case, we have no way of knowing weather her sword was more effective against him than it would have been against a comparably tough non-Kryptonian.

Again, you seem to be using stuff from the comics to make an argument in the film universes.

Also, how does Thor's relative lack of resistance to a possibly magical blade used by Loki say anything about the resistance or lack thereof of Kryptonians to magic?

By the way, I don't know that Loki's knife was magic. Its certainly plausible, but its never stated in the film, and it might be that he just has access to weapons made of better materials, and with greater skill, than steel swords made on Earth.

Now that doesn't mean Hulk won't be cut, but we never saw Mjolnir do any special damage to him, and if Diana's sword is going to have an analog it's going to be Asgardian weaponry. But it's magic so hey, who knows what the rules are really. We've got Dr Strange (who looks fucking perfect) coming up though, so it's safe to say that the MCU is not devoid of magic. What Asgardians use I suspect is some hybrid form of magic and tech. After all Thor doesn't tell Jane there's no such thing as magic, but that magic and science are one for his people.

Hmm... if Thor's hammer is magical, how effective was it against Hulk? It knocked him around a lot, but it didn't actually take him down.

Of course, its also possible Hulk is more resistant to blunt trauma injuries than blades.

[Simon_Jester]

The blunt trauma resistance seems likely. In the 2008 movie Hulk was picking up chunks of metal to use as shields against things like 40mm grenade fire, and raising his hand to shield his eyes from machine gun fire, which suggests his skin can be pierced by things that hit a lot less hard than some of the blunt force trauma he's experienced.

Now that doesn't mean Hulk won't be cut, but we never saw Mjolnir do any special damage to him

It left bruises and swelling that remained for hours, which given Hulk's recuperative abilities is pretty impressive.

[Kojiro]

Their is no indication whatsoever, to my knowledge, that their is a special Kryptonian vulnerability to magic in the films, besides the fact that WW's sword cut Doomsday. And in that case, we have no way of knowing weather her sword was more effective against him than it would have been against a comparably tough non-Kryptonian.

I would argue otherwise. WW's gear is phenomenally durable- no ordinary sword or shield would remain intact in that fight. But we should note that Doomsday holds up to the Batjet, Superman's fists and even a nuke will no visible effect. The blade, comparatively, is extremely effective.

Again, you seem to be using stuff from the comics to make an argument in the film universes.

Not so much an argument as inferences. There's good reason to believe that the comic lore influences these kinds of movies. WW comes from a magical society, with magic weapons in the comics. Kryptonian's have always been vulnerable to magic. Her sword does what a Superman and a nuke can't.

Also, how does Thor's relative lack of resistance to a possibly magical blade used by Loki say anything about the resistance or lack thereof of Kryptonians to magic?

By the way, I don't know that Loki's knife was magic. Its certainly plausible, but its never stated in the film, and it might be that he just has access to weapons made of better materials, and with greater skill, than steel swords made on Earth.

I will admit I didn't explain this bit well. It seems to be more like the stuff of the gods works on gods the same way mortal gear works on mortals. Again, we've seen two Asgardians stabbed with small blades. One manages to penetrate Thor- arguably the toughest of all Asgardians while the other not only fails to even cut the skin of a older, weaker retired Asgardian.

Hmm... if Thor's hammer is magical, how effective was it against Hulk? It knocked him around a lot, but it didn't actually take him down.

Well that's kinda my point. Kryptonians appear to have a vulnerability to magic- I've no other way to explain why WW's sword does what it does when other attacks are utterly ineffective. And it just so happens to fit with comic lore so hey. At the least there's nothing to disprove it. That said, Hulk doesn't seem to share this vulnerability. Mjolnir did no 'special' damage to him beyond the stupidly strong Thor smashing him in the face.

Of course, its also possible Hulk is more resistant to blunt trauma injuries than blades.

Hulk stood up to an F-35 II 25mm cannon without any indication of injury. That at least suggests a heavy resistance to piercing damage at least.

[Enigma]

Are there any recent comics that deal with Superman's weakness to magic?

[Simon_Jester]

Of course, its also possible Hulk is more resistant to blunt trauma injuries than blades.

Hulk stood up to an F-35 II 25mm cannon without any indication of injury. That at least suggests a heavy resistance to piercing damage at least.

A very excellent point.

[Kojiro]

Are there any recent comics that deal with Superman's weakness to magic?

I don't think it's actually a weakness, in the same way he's weak to kryptonite. I believe it's more than his kryptonian biology doesn't offer the same protection against magic. Like if it was an RPG being Kryptonian gives you +50 Damage resistance against Bashing, Piercing, Heat, Cold and Energy but no special resistance to magic and -50 vs Kryptonite.

A quick google of 'Superman vs magic' in images will give you a bunch of examples. One notable one is this:

That's Superman going down to a magical lightning bolt, which is about as much up Thor's alley as anything.

[Batman]

Assuming that's actually Clark. The weird face and the pointy ears leave me somewhat dubious about that.

[Lord Revan]

Assuming that's actually Clark. The weird face and the pointy ears leave me somewhat dubious about that.

my, my shouldn't you recognize eclipso or what the hell name was again possesssing a person, so it's superman it's just his will at driver's seat so to speak.

[Simon_Jester]

He left his 'Great Detective' cap in his other Batmobile, perhaps?

[Batman]

Do you know how many of these idiots there are? I can't remember every face.
And is it actually certain that Marvel/Shazam's lightning IS magical? The portrayal is, at best, inconsistent. At times the guy's been turned back into Batson by completely mundane lightning, on others Clark ate several of those lightning bolts with nothing worse than a scorched S.
It's magically created no doubt, but its actual nature is pretty much up for grabs.
Again, Clark's magic weakness is so ill defined it's impossible to tell what will and won't work. As mentioned before, he doesn't get immediately pulverized in fisticuffs with Marvel, whose powers are about as magical (in origin) as it gets, and he's fought plenty of magical creatures over the decades and not only survived, but came out on top, so magic isn't an automatic win.

[Enigma]

I don't know where Kingdom Come fits in DC canon an older Superman (now immune to Kryptonite due to many years of absorbing solar radiation) took multiple lightning strikes with nothing more than bleeding ears. He held back while trying to reason with Marvel and let himself get zapped until he had enough.

So I wouldn't be surprised that a younger version of himself be vulnerable to lightning but then again with all the high end fights he gets into, being hit by lightning should be trivial.

[Batman]

Kingdom Come is Elseworlds. No canonicity whatsoever. But then since we're discussing movies none of the comics are canon in this context. And I can't recall the part about Clark becoming immune to kryptonite?

[Crazedwraith]

Kingdom Come is Elseworlds. No canonicity whatsoever. But then since we're discussing movies none of the comics are canon in this context. And I can't recall the part about Clark becoming immune to kryptonite?

Luthor definitely mentions it.

I thought Hypertime meant it was all one big canon multiverse or somesuch?

[Batman]

Hypertime is only for the main DC multiverse. 'Elseworlds' stories are explicitly 'What if'' stories that happen outside of that.

[Enigma]

Kingdom Come is Elseworlds. No canonicity whatsoever. But then since we're discussing movies none of the comics are canon in this context. And I can't recall the part about Clark becoming immune to kryptonite?

Correction, I am currently reading KC and it was Oliver Queen stating that they should use a "K-Bomb" on Superman but Luthor replies, "Sadly, Mr Queen, Kryptonite no longer packs the punch it did in the good old days...as I learned the hard way. Chalk it up to the solar radiation Superman's cells have been guzzling all these years. He's at the height of his invulnerability."

Not the U.N. but a meeting between Wayne's group and Luthor's.