Destroying the One Ring

[Iceberg]

Tolkien explicitly stated that the One Ring could not be broken save by either someone with superior smithcraft to the Dark Lord, or by returning it to the place where it was forged. The Dark Lord is no mere mortal - he is a fallen angel, formerly one of the Maiar (others of the Maiar are the Istari, the Five Wizards: Gandalf the White (formerly the Grey), Saruman the Many-Coloured (formerly the White), Radagast the Brown, Pallandro and Allatar the Blue) and the most powerful servant of the ancient and fell god Melkar, who is called Morgoth. Even Saruman the White, most powerful and wisest of the Istari, could not match Sauron, before he was corrupted by the Dark Lord. That leaves bringing it back to Mount Doom. And since, as others have mentioned, the flames of a medieval forge were in fact hotter than the heart of the hottest volcano, that leaves the magical symbolism of bringing an artifact back to whence it came to be destroyed.

Where did you find the names of the blue wizards? BTW, Morgoth was a Valar. Morgoth and Melkar are the same, but Morgoth is his earthly manifestation.

IIRC, the names of the other two wizards (Blue and Red, but I forget who was which) are in the Simillarion. They went West and South, into the areas that Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron later conquered. None knew the fates of the two wizards, but IIRC it was assumed they were either killed by Sauron or subverted as Saruman was.

It's Pallandro the Blue and Allatar the Blue (no, that's not a mistake - they're twins).

[LadyTevar]

Where did you find the names of the blue wizards? BTW, Morgoth was a Valar. Morgoth and Melkar are the same, but Morgoth is his earthly manifestation.

IIRC, the names of the other two wizards (Blue and Red, but I forget who was which) are in the Simillarion. They went West and South, into the areas that Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron later conquered. None knew the fates of the two wizards, but IIRC it was assumed they were either killed by Sauron or subverted as Saruman was.

It's Pallandro the Blue and Allatar the Blue (no, that's not a mistake - they're twins).

My mistake then.
But they did vanish into the South and West, shortly before Sauron started the war that ended with Isildur cutting the Ring off, correct?

[Iceberg]

IIRC, the names of the other two wizards (Blue and Red, but I forget who was which) are in the Simillarion. They went West and South, into the areas that Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron later conquered. None knew the fates of the two wizards, but IIRC it was assumed they were either killed by Sauron or subverted as Saruman was.

It's Pallandro the Blue and Allatar the Blue (no, that's not a mistake - they're twins).[/quote]

My mistake then.
But they did vanish into the South and West, shortly before Sauron started the war that ended with Isildur cutting the Ring off, correct?[/quote]
The Istari didn't show up until the Third Age. The Blue wizards ventured into the East and disappeared, possibly subverted by Sauron, though Tolkien suggests that they may have simply started their own schools of magic and cut their ties with Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast.

[Darth Wong]

Fact: Even with midieval smithing technology, it is possible to achieve a flame that is hotter than magma.

Fact: Midieval smithing technology was incapable of destroying the One Ring.

So we know this- the heat of Mount Doom wasn't what made it the place to go to unmake the One Ring.

The logical conclusion is that there was some other reason that the ring had to be unmade in the fires of Mt. Doom. The only logical reason is that the magic could only be unmade were it had been unmade.

Go back and review your logic, since it is anything but.

Fact: the One Ring is obviously enchanted.
Fact: its enchantment is such that medieval forges cannot damage it.

Theory 1: it is completely indestructible to any force in the universe except for the lava of Mount Doom.

Theory 2: its enchantment makes it so difficult to destroy that no one in Middle Earth could possibly do it without the help of whatever enchantment is in Mount Doom.

Both theories explain the situation. The difference is that the first theory is patently absurd because it assigns a sort of virtual omnipotence to the ring, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You'll need to do a lot better than show that it's one of two possible explanations in order to make it the logical conclusion.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Tolkien explicitly stated that the One Ring could not be broken save by either someone with superior smithcraft to the Dark Lord, or by returning it to the place where it was forged. The Dark Lord is no mere mortal - he is a fallen angel, formerly one of the Maiar (others of the Maiar are the Istari, the Five Wizards: Gandalf the White (formerly the Grey), Saruman the Many-Coloured (formerly the White), Radagast the Brown, Pallandro and Allatar the Blue) and the most powerful servant of the ancient and fell god Melkar, who is called Morgoth. Even Saruman the White, most powerful and wisest of the Istari, could not match Sauron, before he was corrupted by the Dark Lord. That leaves bringing it back to Mount Doom. And since, as others have mentioned, the flames of a medieval forge were in fact hotter than the heart of the hottest volcano, that leaves the magical symbolism of bringing an artifact back to whence it came to be destroyed.

Where did you find the names of the blue wizards? BTW, Morgoth was a Valar. Morgoth and Melkar are the same, but Morgoth is his earthly manifestation.

IIRC, the names of the other two wizards (Blue and Red, but I forget who was which) are in the Simillarion. They went West and South, into the areas that Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron later conquered. None knew the fates of the two wizards, but IIRC it was assumed they were either killed by Sauron or subverted as Saruman was.

One of the Maiar was a woman.


The Valar are what Morgoth was which were the equivalent to angles..

[El Moose Monstero]

I thought Earendil was the elven mariner who guards the door of night, the one with one of the silmarils on his brow?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I got the name wrong, so I editted my post and am trying to find the name of the one female Maiar in "Lost Tales", and Silmirillon.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ah-HA!!!


Found it

MELIAN the Maia
died giving birth to Luthien
Ancestor to: Dior, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, & all the kings of Numendor.

[Bartman]

Ah-HA!!!


Found it

MELIAN the Maia
died giving birth to Luthien
Ancestor to: Dior, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, & all the kings of Numendor.

Died?! She sure was active for the few hundred years after that for a dead woman. Other than that the rest is correct.

[Bartman]

OK I didn't have RotK at work and this is the first time I've had a chance to look for the relevant quotes. Here is all I could find regarding people in close proximity to lava.

The Crack of Doom appears to be high above the lava than I thought. They initially could be hudreds of meters up. Gollum manages to even get a word out on his way down, 'precious' of course. So that suggests at least a dozen or so meters. However as soon as the ring hits the volcano goes off with Sam and Frodo still in it. And "Fires lept up and licked the roof." That would not be pleasant to say the least for Sam and Frodo, but it proves not to be fatal. Later they flee to the bottom of the volcano, ahead of the lava which is described as a "slow thunderous cascade." So much for ultra hot low viscosity lava. Two dead tired hobbits are able to out crawl the "slow" lava chasing them. They finally take refuge on a "low ashen hill" which was "an island now, not long to endure, amid the torment of Orodruin." Not exactly a clear picture as to how close any of tha lava came to them. But speed seems to indicate that it wasn't superheated. Does anyone have any quotes which indicate any lava in or near Barad-dur?

If not we can take the images from the movie and discard them. It was never approved by Tolkien or his estate and can safely be considered as little more than a really well funded fan fiction.

[Dizzy D]

A question to anyone with a copy of the first movie: how long did the One Ring stayed in the fireplace ? (You know when Gandalf returns and throws it in the fireplace to see if it really is the One Ring). One could calculate the Ring's minimum heat capacity from that and then calculate the amount of heat necessary to melt the ring (assuming that it's a gold ring with some kind of enchantment on it to change it's heat capacity/conductivity)

[Iceberg]

A question to anyone with a copy of the first movie: how long did the One Ring stayed in the fireplace ? (You know when Gandalf returns and throws it in the fireplace to see if it really is the One Ring). One could calculate the Ring's minimum heat capacity from that and then calculate the amount of heat necessary to melt the ring (assuming that it's a gold ring with some kind of enchantment on it to change it's heat capacity/conductivity)

IN THE MOVIE: the Ring stayed in a just-started fireplace (temperature about 500 degrees F) for only a few seconds - just long enough for the envelope to burn away.

IN THE NOVEL: The Ring stayed in a roaring fire (temperature about 800 degrees F) for several minutes.

[Dizzy D]

A question to anyone with a copy of the first movie: how long did the One Ring stayed in the fireplace ? (You know when Gandalf returns and throws it in the fireplace to see if it really is the One Ring). One could calculate the Ring's minimum heat capacity from that and then calculate the amount of heat necessary to melt the ring (assuming that it's a gold ring with some kind of enchantment on it to change it's heat capacity/conductivity)

IN THE MOVIE: the Ring stayed in a just-started fireplace (temperature about 500 degrees F) for only a few seconds - just long enough for the envelope to burn away.

IN THE NOVEL: The Ring stayed in a roaring fire (temperature about 800 degrees F) for several minutes.

OK, thanks.

That still leaves several assumptions:

1) The ring is made from a certain material existing in the real world (by the looks of it white gold, 14 or 18k) and not a fictional material and it's melting point remains the same (somewhere around 950-1050 degrees Celsius or 1230-1330 K)

2) The spell that protects the ring does have an upper limit to the amount of force/heat used against it and simply enhances the rings natural durability

3) Destroying the ring by physical means other than Mount Doom will also destroy the non-physical part of it (Sauron's spirit/power)

4) The temperature of the ring when taken out of the fire and placed into Frodo's hand is described as "quite cool", presumably less than 50-60 degrees Celsius (330 K). (and that's being quite generous, 50 or 60 degrees would make it more difficult for Frodo to hold the ring in his open hand. He wouldn't get burns, but it would still be unpleasant)

5) The ring before it was thrown into the fire was room temperature (defined as 25 degrees Celsius, but since this is a medieval-tech house in midwinter, 17 degrees would be better (290 K)

Now if I just could find a calculator....

[Iceberg]

4) The temperature of the ring when taken out of the fire and placed into Frodo's hand is described as "quite cool", presumably less than 50-60 degrees Celsius (330 K). (and that's being quite generous, 50 or 60 degrees would make it more difficult for Frodo to hold the ring in his open hand. He wouldn't get burns, but it would still be unpleasant)

For it to be "quite cool," the Ring would have to be virtually the same temperature as when it went into the fire. 50-60 degrees would be very warm, not "quite cool."

[Stormbringer]

One of the Maiar was a woman.

Actually a whole lot of the Maiar were feminine (technically none of the Valar or Maiar have a sex). The Aniur are split fairly evenly between masculine and feminine.

The Valar are what Morgoth was which were the equivalent to angles..

Actually, they're a lot closer to the Greek Gods than anything out of the Judeao-christian tradition. They're gods but are not omnipotent or all seeing.

[Howedar]

4) The temperature of the ring when taken out of the fire and placed into Frodo's hand is described as "quite cool", presumably less than 50-60 degrees Celsius (330 K). (and that's being quite generous, 50 or 60 degrees would make it more difficult for Frodo to hold the ring in his open hand. He wouldn't get burns, but it would still be unpleasant)

For it to be "quite cool," the Ring would have to be virtually the same temperature as when it went into the fire. 50-60 degrees would be very warm, not "quite cool."

If an object had been sitting in the fire for several minutes and came out at 50-60 degrees C, I'd sure as fuck call that "quite cool." Its a damn sight cooler than I'd expect.

[MrAnderson]

4) The temperature of the ring when taken out of the fire and placed into Frodo's hand is described as "quite cool", presumably less than 50-60 degrees Celsius (330 K). (and that's being quite generous, 50 or 60 degrees would make it more difficult for Frodo to hold the ring in his open hand. He wouldn't get burns, but it would still be unpleasant)

5) The ring before it was thrown into the fire was room temperature (defined as 25 degrees Celsius, but since this is a medieval-tech house in midwinter, 17 degrees would be better (290 K)

Now if I just could find a calculator....

This is all an assumption. By the expression on Frodo's face I would guess that the ring showed zero change in temperature for being in the fire and was probably still cold to Frodo's touch.

Either of our assumptions could be correct and there is no way to know for sure unless someone knows of a letter written by Tolkein that says one way or the other.

My gut says the ring was cold to the touch. It would go with the overall feel that Tolkein was trying to create about the ring.

[Dizzy D]

4) The temperature of the ring when taken out of the fire and placed into Frodo's hand is described as "quite cool", presumably less than 50-60 degrees Celsius (330 K). (and that's being quite generous, 50 or 60 degrees would make it more difficult for Frodo to hold the ring in his open hand. He wouldn't get burns, but it would still be unpleasant)

For it to be "quite cool," the Ring would have to be virtually the same temperature as when it went into the fire. 50-60 degrees would be very warm, not "quite cool."

I'm going by the absolute minimum ( I don't think the ring warmed up 40 degrees, it probably would have warmed up less than 5 degrees, but since "quite cool" is a subjective term, I'm being really generous here (the number of energy required to warm the ring up then would be an absolute minimum)

[Dahak]

Maybe, but logic dictates that we take the simplest explanation, which does not involve powerful magic resistance in this case.

I think "logic" is a bit overstreched, when you're talking about something as mystical and magial as the One Ring.

[SirNitram]

Magic/Science discussion split and HOS'd. If you wish to claim it can only be destroyed at one location, you must prove it, but don't expect to.

[Darth Wong]

I see a lot of people wavering between saying that it's indestructible away from Mount Doom and people saying that it's just really really tough. In different posts, or even in different paragraphs in the same post, a user will often say that it's immune to energy and then turn around and agree that it probably wouldn't survive being chucked into the Sun or a black hole. I find this behaviour confusing, to say the least.

[Stormbringer]

I see a lot of people wavering between saying that it's indestructible away from Mount Doom and people saying that it's just really really tough. In different posts, or even in different paragraphs in the same post, a user will often say that it's immune to energy and then turn around and agree that it probably wouldn't survive being chucked into the Sun or a black hole. I find this behaviour confusing, to say the least.

Part of that is the very pronounced lack of absolutes. We have a lot of implications and theories but precious little hard evidence.

[LadyTevar]

..... Wasn't this locked????

[Ghost Rider]

Yes...no...and finally Nitram axed some of it to the HoS .

Hopefully this one will remain a bit more stable.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Hopefully this one will remain a bit more stable.

Great. Now you jinxed it.