Most incompetent fantasy world conflicts ...

[Vendetta]

That part irritated me a great deal. It seemed very arbitrary on Jackson's part. He weakened the Riders immensely and then compensated by sending them Elves. And yet, why would he have weakened the Riders in the first place?

Because he's a muppet.

This is sufficiently evidenced by his handling of Grima. They spent all that screen time painstakingly building up Grima, showing his motivations, and his influence over Theoden, and then completely abandoned it for No fucking reason and replaced it with 'oh but saruman was posessing him all along look'.

The big problem isn't even the departure from the original story (again, like the elves at helm's deep, for no readily explainable reason, as sticking to it exact would have made for a more powerful scene) it's that they WASTED ALL THE FUCKING EXPOSITION! build up the situation, and then completely ignore it! Way to go Pete, great storytelling there!

[PeZook]

The movie now makes a lot more sense. But now Aragorn looks strange. He's encouraging Theoden to ride out against the Orcs when, as the movie portrays, he doesn't have a chance in hell. (I'm looking at the numbers ...)

He was doing it at the end, when Gandalf was supposed to return with reinforcements. What is weird is the fact Theoden agreed almost immediately without knowing that - I guess that in the end, he simply wanted to go down fighting instead of being overrun inside the keep. After all, if the world somehow fought back the orcish onslaught, bards would sing about this charge for centuries...

And why is that, if I may know? I liked it. Helm's Deep fortifications were pretty lousy, though.

I believe Stravo mentioned it a while ago. The appearance of the Elves. What was supposed to be Man's first stand, alone, against the darkness is suddenly a very different scene.

That part irritated me a great deal. It seemed very arbitrary on Jackson's part. He weakened the Riders immensely and then compensated by sending them Elves. And yet, why would he have weakened the Riders in the first place?

Probably to get the elves out sooner - he remarked that he was making a movie that he would like to see. The scene when elves enter Helm's Deep was, IMHO, awesome (the music!) - he probably had it envisioned beforehand, and just wanted to use this cool elven gear for something more than the final battle and the introduction .

In seriousness - Seeing as you put it, I can understand why Tolkien fans may dislike the scene. I was a little bit irritated myself that proud riders of Rohan, Men (who, mind you, were supposed to be the last best hope of Middle Earth) were shown as a small band of disorganized marauders...on the other hand, Grima made a good job while getting rid of the cream of their crop in the movies, so I guess it is kinda logical.

In the end, it all boils down to the fact that I never liked the books very much, and tend to see the movies more as independent work, rather than comparing them to the books every single time. To each his own, I guess.

And with that, I shall get some much-needed sleep now. See you later.

[Vendetta]

and just wanted to use this cool elven gear for something more than the final battle and the introduction

There are no elves in the final battle, save Elladan and Elrohir.

Their presence is wrong on fundamental moral levels, because they fuck with the source for no identifiable reason.

They should burn it all and get Steve Kloves to rewrite the screenplays.

[Crom]

He was doing it at the end, when Gandalf was supposed to return with reinforcements. What is weird is the fact Theoden agreed almost immediately without knowing that - I guess that in the end, he simply wanted to go down fighting instead of being overrun inside the keep. After all, if the world somehow fought back the orcish onslaught, bards would sing about this charge for centuries...

IIRC Aragorn begins prompting for direct assault on the Orcs almost as soon as Theoden is free from Saruman's influence. That is what I mean by Aragorn seems very strange.

Probably to get the elves out sooner - he remarked that he was making a movie that he would like to see. The scene when elves enter Helm's Deep was, IMHO, awesome (the music!) - he probably had it envisioned beforehand, and just wanted to use this cool elven gear for something more than the final battle and the introduction .

It struck me as if Jackson was too much in love with his elves.

In seriousness - Seeing as you put it, I can understand why Tolkien fans may dislike the scene. I was a little bit irritated myself that proud riders of Rohan, Men (who, mind you, were supposed to be the last best hope of Middle Earth) were shown as a small band of disorganized marauders...on the other hand, Grima made a good job while getting rid of the cream of their crop in the movies, so I guess it is kinda logical.

In the end, it all boils down to the fact that I never liked the books very much, and tend to see the movies more as independent work, rather than comparing them to the books every single time. To each his own, I guess.

And with that, I shall get some much-needed sleep now. See you later.

Yeah, I'm a Tolkien fan. If the movies were just some other fantasy movie I could deal, but since it's not I can't. I don't like his choices because it feels like the story was cheapened in a way.

Sleep well.

[Crom]

This is sufficiently evidenced by his handling of Grima. They spent all that screen time painstakingly building up Grima, showing his motivations, and his influence over Theoden, and then completely abandoned it for No fucking reason and replaced it with 'oh but saruman was posessing him all along look'.

The big problem isn't even the departure from the original story (again, like the elves at helm's deep, for no readily explainable reason, as sticking to it exact would have made for a more powerful scene) it's that they WASTED ALL THE FUCKING EXPOSITION! build up the situation, and then completely ignore it! Way to go Pete, great storytelling there!

Amen.

Sometimes I can only sit back and wonder what the hell was he thinking?

[HemlockGrey]

The movie told an entertaining story; I personally don't want to ruin that by measuring them to the books.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

But now Aragorn looks strange. He's encouraging Theoden to ride out against the Orcs when, as the movie portrays, he doesn't have a chance in hell. (I'm looking at the numbers ...)

Using the book quality Riders and book quality Uruk-Hai, you'd have a chance between those numbers of infantry and those of cavalry. The problem comes when asking cavalry to charge disciplined pikemen, which is what the Uruk-Hai were protrayed as. That is simply impossible. You cannot make horses charge a block of pike.

[SylasGaunt]

And by the look of things those same horsemen would have been squished just as you say if not for Gandalf doing the whole blind the hell out of them thing.

[Skelron]

You know I keep hearing this there where no Elves at Helms Deep thing, and can I just say WHO CARES. Do you want to know why I think he used the Elves at Helms deep, and why if he uses them elsewhere he has done so. Because for a movie it makes more sense, The Elves are supposed to be this Noble people, but if all they did was bugger of the Undying Lands and did nothing else for the entire war, Non Tolkien fans, those who have only seen the movie would be left with the impression not of a Noble people near the end of their time, who simply can't do anything more, but instead of a bunch of Selfish little Sh**es who left the Humans to die.

That would have been a worse mistake, so I think Jackson made the change so that this impression would not be made. I for one prefer it that way.

[Vendetta]

The point of the Lord oif the Rings is that this is the start of the time of men. The days of the elves aren't just ending, they've been goine since the end of the First Age.

What Jackson did is devalue entirely the spirit of the humans in the film, by calling on the elves as this 'noble people' (when if you read The Silmarillion, they're not, they're just as fallible as Humans) .

It's bollocks, it doesn't enhance the movie, it just devalues one of the principal characters.

(Oh look, that's exactly the same as he did to Grima, what a fucking surprise)

[consequences]

Disagree, it is the end of the time of Elves, signified by the fact that none of them lived to the end of the battle except Legolas, while humans survived and won.

[Symmetry]

As far as the Aiel climbing walls *Erm can I inform the folks on top of the walls about BOILING OIL*?

hell it would be fun. I wonder what thier reaction to greek fire would be?

If the Aeil were to charge up to the walls in a horde in broad daylight, that would be a good objection, but let me point out a few things.

1: Unlike every other army in this part of the world, the Aeil use camouflage.

2: Unlike every other army in this part of the world, the Aeil sometimes attack at night.

3: Unlike every other army in this part of the world, the Aeil are experienced with raiding, aren't married to set piece battles, and fight intelligently.

4: The Aeil can travel faster on foot over distance than most of the region's calvalry units.

5: The Cairhein nobility are generally overconfident, stupid militarily (though good at intriuge), and don't listen to their sargents.

Imagine it happening like this. The Cairhein army is defeated a hundred miles east of the city. Half the Aeil force harries the defeated army, while the other half goes around, and heads for the city. There, the people in charge have just heard of the defeat to the east, and have no clue how fast the Aeil move, so they don't post any extra guards or anything. That night, some of the Aeil sneak up to the wall, climb over, and slit the throats of the guards, and signal to a larger group which joins them. They attack the south gate, with complete suprise, seize it and let the rest of the army in.

Of course, if it had happened that way leman probably wouldn't have lived all the way to the Battle of Dragonmount, but I hope I've demonstrated that it would indeed be possible for the Aeil to seize Cairhien city, even though their forces are totally light infantry.

[HemlockGrey]

The situation you proposed still relies on the complete incompetence of the Cairhenieners.

Incidentally, the addition of the elves lent a little credence, I think, to Theoden's victory, because if we had 10,000 of the Uruk-Hai vs Theoden's little band of 300 men and children, I would have been a bit put off if the humans had won.

Still, Theoden wins the battle. If we're going for the whole, 'dawn of the age of men' thing, well, the elves are all slaughtered, and, in the end, it's Theoden who rides out and the Rohirrim who route the orcs.

[Crayz9000]

Actually, it was not Theoden who won at Helm's Deep. He would have fallen if the Huorns had not come in and basically shredded the Orc hordes in the middle of the night.

[D.Turtle]

Yeah, the Huorns that were left completely out of the movie

[Crom]

You know I keep hearing this there where no Elves at Helms Deep thing, and can I just say WHO CARES. Do you want to know why I think he used the Elves at Helms deep, and why if he uses them elsewhere he has done so. Because for a movie it makes more sense, The Elves are supposed to be this Noble people, but if all they did was bugger of the Undying Lands and did nothing else for the entire war, Non Tolkien fans, those who have only seen the movie would be left with the impression not of a Noble people near the end of their time, who simply can't do anything more, but instead of a bunch of Selfish little Sh**es who left the Humans to die.

At what part of the movie did the Elves come off as terribly noble?

Take Elrond for instance, he's openly hostile towards the race of Men. At least that's how he's portrayed in FoTR.

To paraphrase: "Men are weak."

In the book the Elves did help out. Take into account that their resources were limited, as they only had a few strongholds left. Between Rivendell and Lothlorien, there was little else in the way of major Elven havens.

They gathered, provisioned, and equipped the Fellowship of Nine. They provided Legolas as a member of the Fellowship. They sent Glorfindel out to face the Nazghul. The sons of Elrond rode with the Rangers. Galadriel gave Frodo special talismans that were vital to his survival later.

They did not move openly against the Shadow because they lacked the power.

[Balrog]

Yeah, the Huorns that were left completely out of the movie

Well at least we'll have the joy of seeing them in the extended edition (and in theaters too! )

[Balrog]

Incidentally, the addition of the elves lent a little credence, I think, to Theoden's victory, because if we had 10,000 of the Uruk-Hai vs Theoden's little band of 300 men and children, I would have been a bit put off if the humans had won.

Still, Theoden wins the battle. If we're going for the whole, 'dawn of the age of men' thing, well, the elves are all slaughtered, and, in the end, it's Theoden who rides out and the Rohirrim who route the orcs.

I can't help but agree with what Hemlock's saying. To try to convince the audience that 300 soldiers, old men and young boys held off a completely professional-looking army of 10,000 Uruks is quiet idoitic. Besides, the Elves were being totally pwned by the Bezerker-like Uruks

Of course PJ could've given them the original book figure for the Rohirrims (1-2,000 wasn't it?). Maybe he'll make Minas Tirith the "dawn of the age of men" battle (cause kicking it off with a dinky little skirmish at Helm's Depth doesn't have the whole "Oh shit" value as 200,000 Orcs screaming down at you )

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And by the look of things those same horsemen would have been squished just as you say if not for Gandalf doing the whole blind the hell out of them thing.

A blind phalanx can still defeat cavalry. There are actual quotes from Hellenic authors suggesting along the lines of "the blind and the crippled should also stand in the ranks, as one does not need to see or run to stand in place." (it might be a boast, but still, every adult citizen in Greece was required to fight, including those who made such boasts, so they had an idea of the situation they were speaking of.) Gandalf can make pretty bright lights all day long, but that won't change the fact that the Uruk-Hai were protrayed as being sufficiently disciplined to repel a cavalry charge, were armed with the necessary weapons to do so, and a bright light isn't going to make them drop their pikes or their ranks collapse--just close your eyes!

[HemlockGrey]

I think I saw some dropping and raising their weapons, actually...

[Sea Skimmer]

I think I saw some dropping and raising their weapons, actually...

Some lowered them, and then promptly pulled them back up into formation.

[The Prime Necromancer]

And by the look of things those same horsemen would have been squished just as you say if not for Gandalf doing the whole blind the hell out of them thing.

A blind phalanx can still defeat cavalry. There are actual quotes from Hellenic authors suggesting along the lines of "the blind and the crippled should also stand in the ranks, as one does not need to see or run to stand in place." (it might be a boast, but still, every adult citizen in Greece was required to fight, including those who made such boasts, so they had an idea of the situation they were speaking of.) Gandalf can make pretty bright lights all day long, but that won't change the fact that the Uruk-Hai were protrayed as being sufficiently disciplined to repel a cavalry charge, were armed with the necessary weapons to do so, and a bright light isn't going to make them drop their pikes or their ranks collapse--just close your eyes!

Ah, but see this wasn't just any light, it was THE LIGHT(tm), you know, the one that rekindles the fire of courage in a good man's heart and banishes evil and all that good stuff.

Seriously, that's the best explanation I can give. And it's not altogether stupid; we know regular orcs don't like normal light, so while Uruk-hai can stand the sun, they still wouldn't like light of an inherently holy variety. Plus they seemed to be visibly recoiling in pain when it struck them.

[The Yosemite Bear]

OK camoflauge vs. Night action...

Your still making noise especially if in that number.

Two torchlight on the walls, you will still see shadows where they are not supposed to be (mass displace etc. sorry, even if they went from looking just like the ground below them, somone on the tower is going to notice the movement from an ANGLE.

Then it's simply a matter of revealing the whole invasion by dropping something on one of them and equating the entire Aiel with the concept of 10m/s per sec accleration and what that means. (Gravity is a bitch)

[Smiling Bandit]

Apparently, neither Peter jackson nor Robert Jordan have any clue what military worki is like.

[Stormbringer]

<Snip>

Gandalf can make pretty bright lights all day long, but that won't change the fact that the Uruk-Hai were protrayed as being sufficiently disciplined to repel a cavalry charge, were armed with the necessary weapons to do so, and a bright light isn't going to make them drop their pikes or their ranks collapse--just close your eyes!

There is of course the fact that the Uruk-hai are a nocturnal species and that they hate and fear sunlight. They might be willing to fight but when Gandalf gave the the Halogen Headlights of Much Holiness they panicked and let their insticints take over. They're disciplined but even then we see in the movie, that discipline breaks easily.