Rock Lee in Sunnydale

[SylasGaunt]

Another couple things I thought of regarding the 'destruction o philosphy' issue.

Does Rock Lee's presence in any way decrease Buffy's ability? Has it caused her to suddenly lose her slayer powers and turned her into a helpless damsel in distress? No? Didn't think so.

Now a quick and simple mysoginy test. Select one and only one of the following answers:

Rock Lee is a superior fighter compared to Buffy because-

A.) He eats his spinach
B.) He's a man
C.) He pumps 'roids like mad
D.) He's endured a level of physical conditioning and martial arts training Buffy's probably never thought of putting herself through

[Majin Gojira]

Probably something similar to the goofy dance, though lasting longer since Gai isn't present ot belt him one and snap him out of it.

That good grace would fall to Buffy in order to keep the narative sanctity of both.

I'm what's known as a "Canon Whore" in some circles.

Lee's generally a very polite sort, in fact the only time I can remember him insulting anyone was while he was drunk.

Good ol' Drunken Insults!

The question is how? Most of those sort of temptations come in the form of quick fixes.

Or horrible exagerations of social circumstances.

So it's kinda like back home for Rock. I'll try and provide examples going with yours.

But were any extensions of ongoing internal problems? Or thinley veiled metaphores for Life and growing up? See, that's the kicker--emotional Resonance.

Also, I sense One-Upmanship.

Two of the three sound ninja who participated in the chuunin exam were cybernetically enhanced, and for at least one of them those cybernetic enhancements were complimented by chakra manipulation techniques.

I find it odd no one considered that cheating. (or maybe they did, I don't know)

The Prom - How else would someone get the bright idea to summon hellhounds as a revenge against the prom?

Orochimaru summoning huge, triple headed snakes and ninja zombies so he can get revenge on the Hidden Leaf Village during the middle of the Chuunin exams.

We've had mystical foodstuffs (most of which involve some form of temporary physical boost), the beer is new though.

The beer turned people into cavemen.

Outlets for ideas and such or outlet as in outlet mall?

He became a paragon, everyone's ultimate ideal of perfection. But he did not belittle a single person, as most paragons would.

It also created an Anti-Paragon, an Ultimate evil monster thing.

Ah.. a clothing version of viagra?

Like most Buffyverse Love Spells, it wasn't love, but pure banal obsession. It Drove Buffy to try and kill someone, Anya to rob a bank, Dawn to nearly comit suicide and Willow nearly changed the boy's gender.

Plenty of weird crap floating around.. talking dogs, walking on water, nosebleeds that launch people through the air.

Lovely, Lovely Anime Physics

I set no specific encounter scenario. They could quite concievably simply run across each other in the street, or since Buffy has a tendency to head after vampires and Rock has a tendency to head off to help people in distress it's also fairly likely they'd run into each other in a situation like that, but not a given.

and then the fighting comparison begins.

So if Buffy's not in the spotlight it's automatic mysoginy?

Spotlight? No. Knocked from a posision of power, yes.

You're completely ignoring the idea of the reasons behind any of this.

Ignoring? We've been talking about them for almost a page now!

As I said, if Buffy was put into a secondary position by Lee then that does not automatically equate to mysoginy simply because there are reasons other than him being male and her female for why things would end up that way. If I'd put Tsunade in there she'd also be shoved into a secondary position even moreso than with Rock present. Your problem is you seem to think that any male being better at Buffy at fighting is mysoginist.

And actively going out to show it within the scenario given.

Buffy still does have things going for her. Rock's more skilled, faster, and stronger than she is. On the other hand I'd bet good money that he doesn't have the slightest clue how to kill a vampire for example.

And naratively, the only way to save the meeting is to play that up.

Ah so because she's such a symbol any male that detracts from her leading position is automatically mysoginist and damn whatever the reason is for that being so.

Sorry, but I've dealt to many bad fanfic writers to tolerate even the faintest hint of it.

Male fighter comes in (or Xander is given some powers) and puts Buffy into the secondary, slowly eroding her character's inteligence as well as that of those around them.

True but in the past he's been fairly polite to everyone even people trying to kill him.

Very interesting. there may be hope yet

I haven't chosen a scenario for a first meeting, I gave some potential scenarios for an initial encounter.

:THWACK!: Think of a better one, damnit!

And motive is what matters. If he's rubbing it in because he's male and she's female then yes it is mysoginy, if he's rubbing it in just because he's a better fighter that's just being a jerk.

With underlying hints of mysoginy

(Let me respond for you: "Damn you and your relentless, worthless Philosiphysing!" )

And lo the female characters fell out of the seat of most powerful good-folks and thus the entire universe imploded on itself. Seriously though..

Buffy was founded on the principle inversion of the horror movie steriotype of the young blond going into an alley and gettin 'et' by a monster. It gave her power. Now you've introduced an unneeded rescuer robs that universe of it's principle foundation...thus it crumbles. Thus doing such a meeting is a delecate and tricky operation.

Take up Rock's philosophy and try harder? Does Buffy even train?

Yes, often. Though not very hard early on, she does get more focues on it after she died, until Season 4 when she stops and then tries again in Season 5. stopping again in 6 and then training others in 7.

Lee's not really one to spew out witty dialogue if that's what you mean. They've also got him beat hands down on local and supernatural knowledge probably.

Which reminds me of a comic Joss wants to do: a Batman/Buffy crossover. Of course, I don't know if Lee's that Stoic. Besides, no Bat-Jokes. Just Eyebrow ones.

"So, you got some nifty super-ninja training...Does it require the cultivation of Chia-Eyebrows?"

Yes because you can't have a feminist symbol who's physically weaker than someone who comes from a village full of ninja and who's been undergoing intense physical training for years.

And somehow surpasses the greatest superhuman forces present in Buffy's world.

One of the key lines towards the end of the series stated "It's about power". Robbed of her physical prowess, she'll need to be matched out in other was in order for it NOT to become mysginyst.

[SylasGaunt]

[
That good grace would fall to Buffy in order to keep the narative sanctity of both.

I'm what's known as a "Canon Whore" in some circles.

And another amusing moment brought to you by Rock Lee's status as something of a goofball.

Or horrible exagerations of social circumstances.

That'd have to be helluva horrible exaggeration.. hmm I wonder if the scoobs will somehow be able to talk him into getting new clothes (or maybe that'll be easier than I tink because I made no provision for him to have spares available).

But were any extensions of ongoing internal problems? Or thinley veiled metaphores for Life and growing up? See, that's the kicker--emotional Resonance.

People grow up but most of these situations don't run parralel. The closest it gets are the cases of Gaara and Naruto who both grew up being shunned , feared, and despised for reasons they couldn't understand. Naruto ended up being a generally good sort, if overly loud for a ninja. Gaara on the other hand ended up completely batshit (probably helped along by the fact that he sleeps VERY little thanks to the demon inside him.. the bags under his eyes are permanent).

I find it odd no one considered that cheating. (or maybe they did, I don't know)

It's not cheating but then neither is killing other teams (at least beating them up in neccesary in the second part of the exam). There are no strictures against weaponry, and the sound village is the newest and smallest ninja village and really the only one that uses cybernetics anyway (of course since Orochimaru's in charge and he's a mad-scientist type to on top of all his other stuff it's no surprise).

First part of the exam's a written test (where the object is to cheat since they're really testing your ability to gather information covertly, nobody should have known the answers except the chuunins disguised as genin level ninja in the classroom.. of course Sakura ended up knowing them all anyway but pretty much everyone else cheated somehow or another).

Second test is varies but it's meant to teach the same thing and be the same difficulty. The one Rock Lee participated in involved some 44 ninja teams (3 people each) participating in a no holds barred scroll battle. Each team gets one scroll, Heaven or Earth. To pass you have to make the 10 kilometer trek to the tower in the center of the exam area through a forest filled with giant trees, man-eating animals (BIIIIIIIIG ones), poisonous plants and animals, and of course the other ninjas all gunning for your scroll. Of course you also don't know what team has what scroll either so you could take out another ninja team only to find they have the wrong one for you. Rock Lee made it through there at age 13 (his teacher got through it at age 11, and Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto's instructor got through his chuunin exam at age SIX). If you lose a team-mate you fail, if you take longer than 120 hours you fail. No quitting, you don't get to leave the forest until you show up with both scrolls or the time limit runs out, you can't open the scroll either (doing so hits you with a booby-trap that knocks you out until the exam ends).

They had a slight hiccup here since too many teams passed.. so they had one-on-one matches to trim the numbers a bit for the final tournament later.

The beer turned people into cavemen.

That's some bad beer.... domestic?

He became a paragon, everyone's ultimate ideal of perfection. But he did not belittle a single person, as most paragons would.

It also created an Anti-Paragon, an Ultimate evil monster thing.

That would be bad.. kinda like Naruto and Gaara then. Good-natured loud-mouth to Quiet nutcase.

Like most Buffyverse Love Spells, it wasn't love, but pure banal obsession. It Drove Buffy to try and kill someone, Anya to rob a bank, Dawn to nearly comit suicide and Willow nearly changed the boy's gender.

I dub thee Spanish Fly Jacket of Doom!

Lovely, Lovely Anime Physics

Isn't it? Makes me wish I could find that fanart pic of Naruto and Jesus both standing on top of the water with Naruto going 'So?'

Spotlight? No. Knocked from a posision of power, yes.

And if I had put Tsunade in here instead? Introducing someone better who happens to be male does not mysoginy make (better BECAUSE he's male yes, but not just because he happens to be male).

Ignoring? We've been talking about them for almost a page now!

Yes but the mysoginy idea keeps coming up. In order for that to be applicable you'd have to show that Rock Lee being better than Buffy at kicking ass was a result of his being male and her female.

And actively going out to show it within the scenario given.

How so? The scenario only goes so far as to let Lee speak english and plop him down in Sunnydale. Nothing has been set regarding how he encounters the scoobies, or what the circumstances are (as I said for instance the vamp encounter scenario could occur and rock only get there after the dirty work is done). Why don't you tell me what you think the most likely scenario would be for Rock and the Scoobies encountering each other?

Sorry, but I've dealt to many bad fanfic writers to tolerate even the faintest hint of it.

There is no hint. The closest thing you've got to a hint is there being a more powerful male character present. Rock being a stronger male fighter than Buffy is no more inherently mysoginistic than an asian-american having a PHD is racist when I don't have one.

Now has it ever been suggested anywhere in this thread that Rock Lee is a better fighter than Buffy not because of his training, not because of the fact he was raised in a village stuffed to the gills with covert operatives and assassins, but rather that he's better just because he's a guy and Buffy's a girl?

Male fighter comes in (or Xander is given some powers) and puts Buffy into the secondary, slowly eroding her character's inteligence as well as that of those around them.

So now the mere presence of a powerful male character will somehow decrease her intelligence? Whatever crap fanfics you've read they don't apply here. Rock's presence is not going to magically weaken Buffy's abilities or turn her stupid.

Very interesting. there may be hope yet

Yep.. one on one with Kimimaro who just tried to decapitate one of his friends and he asks to be excused for a second so he can take his medication.. of course he brought the wrong bottle so a little drink later he's yelling at him and calling him a freak right before he does his Legend of Drunken Master impression.

With underlying hints of mysoginy

(Let me respond for you: "Damn you and your relentless, worthless Philosiphysing!" )

No! Bad paranoia! Bad! Like I said, for it to be mysoginist he'd need to be rubbing it he'd have to be saying he was better since he was a guy. Of course Rock Lee wouldn't do that in the first place since the best ninja in his village is a woman and there are quite a few female Jounin (senior ninja) and ANBU (assassination squad) who could beat his ass to.

Buffy was founded on the principle inversion of the horror movie steriotype of the young blond going into an alley and gettin 'et' by a monster. It gave her power. Now you've introduced an unneeded rescuer robs that universe of it's principle foundation...thus it crumbles. Thus doing such a meeting is a delecate and tricky operation.

Who said he's a rescuer? The only thing that's changed is Rock Lee's presence. The monsters are still the same as before (well unless someone goes looking for some new uber-demon we've never heard of to deal with Rock) so unless she needed rescuing then I doubt she'll need it now. Of course he might try anyway since that's the way he is, but that shouldn't last too long once he notices that she can indeed take care of herself.

Yes, often. Though not very hard early on, she does get more focues on it after she died, until Season 4 when she stops and then tries again in Season 5. stopping again in 6 and then training others in 7.

Ah. Well, more incentive to then.

Which reminds me of a comic Joss wants to do: a Batman/Buffy crossover. Of course, I don't know if Lee's that Stoic. Besides, no Bat-Jokes. Just Eyebrow ones.

He tends to go pretty serious once a fight actually starts, and what few times he does speak is often a compliment on his opponents ability.

"So, you got some nifty super-ninja training...Does it require the cultivation of Chia-Eyebrows?"

I feel I should mention that I don't think Naruto's ever actually called rock by name.. he usually refers to him as Thick-Brows

And somehow surpasses the greatest superhuman forces present in Buffy's world.

Yeah but let's be fair, that includes the male ones to. And if it was someone like Tsunade or Temari here they'd be doing the same thing. Reverse-Sexism! (j/k )

One of the key lines towards the end of the series stated "It's about power". Robbed of her physical prowess, she'll need to be matched out in other was in order for it NOT to become mysginyst.

But she hasn't been robbed of her physical prowess, there's just someone else around with more (there were at least a couple villains stronger than her right? And they didn't make her suddenly turn into the helpless damsel)

[Majin Gojira]

That'd have to be helluva horrible exaggeration..

Let's put it this way. The old addage "The world will end if you don't go out tonight" becomes literal on BtVS.

hmm I wonder if the scoobs will somehow be able to talk him into getting new clothes (or maybe that'll be easier than I tink because I made no provision for him to have spares available).

Buffy would only suggest it, later season Cordelia would possibly go the whole nine yards...why, I don't know.

It's not cheating but then neither is killing other teams (at least beating them up in neccesary in the second part of the exam).

See, now we get to introduce fun moral quandieries and other such comparisions.

That's some bad beer.... domestic?

It was a home brew

Isn't it? Makes me wish I could find that fanart pic of Naruto and Jesus both standing on top of the water with Naruto going 'So?'

And now, so do I!

And if I had put Tsunade in here instead? Introducing someone better who happens to be male does not mysoginy make (better BECAUSE he's male yes, but not just because he happens to be male).

Frankly, it introduces the threat, that is all.

Yes but the mysoginy idea keeps coming up. In order for that to be applicable you'd have to show that Rock Lee being better than Buffy at kicking ass was a result of his being male and her female.

A poor writer would unknowingly do that, then there's the whole taking away one of the things that made Buffy special-thing

Why don't you tell me what you think the most likely scenario would be for Rock and the Scoobies encountering each other?

Most Likely?

Rock Lee is sent to Sunnydale on a mission to retrieve a (Insert Mcguffin Here) which Giles has (just retrieve it, as the WC is an "Ally" of sorts). This would have taken place just after the Season finale in order for the next part to occur. As Giles goes back to retrieve the item, talking about training methods (Rock gives him the idea, even if not directly, for the weighted bands), Rock accidently begins to read some of Gile's notes regarding the incidents in "Prophecy Girl" and how Prophecy can be thrwarted. After retrieving the item, he goes back. The ending sequence is a gag dealing with Buffdy discovering the weights and commenting on how ugly they are, where Giles' responds with a droll remark about how they are not fasion excesseries.

There is no hint.

That's one of the horrible things about the written word--everyone seems to have their own interpretation.

The closest thing you've got to a hint is there being a more powerful male character present. Rock being a stronger male fighter than Buffy is no more inherently mysoginistic than an asian-american having a PHD is racist when I don't have one.

Shall I concoct and example of how this could become a mysoginist 'story'?

So now the mere presence of a powerful male character will somehow decrease her intelligence?

No, that's just a biproduct of the bad author.

Whatever crap fanfics you've read they don't apply here. Rock's presence is not going to magically weaken Buffy's abilities or turn her stupid.

And that's what I'd like to prevent. See, I'm a mildly manipulative bastard.

No! Bad paranoia! Bad!

Ya damn right I'm paranoid!

[SylasGaunt]

Let's put it this way. The old addage "The world will end if you don't go out tonight" becomes literal on BtVS.

Ah

Buffy would only suggest it, later season Cordelia would possibly go the whole nine yards...why, I don't know.

Probably gonna be a neccesity.. Rock loves his outfit (since it was given to him by his teacher/idol.. who dresses and acts much the same way) but hygenic concerns will probably force him to get more clothes.

See, now we get to introduce fun moral quandieries and other such comparisions.

True but Lee's team wasn't one of the ones set on doing any kill. Neji even passed up a chance to get a scroll because Ino's team was too weak to be worth taking it from.

It was a home brew

Ah.

And now, so do I!

Found it

A poor writer would unknowingly do that, then there's the whole taking away one of the things that made Buffy special-thing

So all she's got going for her is that she's the best one at fighting?

Most Likely?

Rock Lee is sent to Sunnydale on a mission to retrieve a (Insert Mcguffin Here) which Giles has (just retrieve it, as the WC is an "Ally" of sorts). This would have taken place just after the Season finale in order for the next part to occur. As Giles goes back to retrieve the item, talking about training methods (Rock gives him the idea, even if not directly, for the weighted bands), Rock accidently begins to read some of Gile's notes regarding the incidents in "Prophecy Girl" and how Prophecy can be thrwarted. After retrieving the item, he goes back. The ending sequence is a gag dealing with Buffdy discovering the weights and commenting on how ugly they are, where Giles' responds with a droll remark about how they are not fasion excesseries.

Sold to the man with the poofy hat!

Shall I concoct and example of how this could become a mysoginist 'story'?

No because it's easy to make up something to turn it mysoginist since all you have to do is change the reasons Rock's better or make him act massively OOC (the same way you could easily turn Buffy into a fem-nazi wank story)

[Majin Gojira]

Probably gonna be a neccesity.. Rock loves his outfit (since it was given to him by his teacher/idol.. who dresses and acts much the same way) but hygenic concerns will probably force him to get more clothes.

Oh, the humor that can generate!

Found it

So saved to my comp!

So all she's got going for her is that she's the best one at fighting?

As a Slayer: She is mildly prescient (prophetic Dreams, etc), and able to sense Vampires (though she doesn't do that very often), Inate apitude with medival weaponry, the ability to take most spooky-stuff in stride, above human reaction time, above-human strength (not to Lee's level), and other things...

Buffy herself is highly perseptive, willful and witty.

Sold to the man with the poofy hat!

Makes me glad I switched my major to Dramatic Writing.

No because it's easy to make up something to turn it mysoginist since all you have to do is change the reasons Rock's better or make him act massively OOC (the same way you could easily turn Buffy into a fem-nazi wank story)

And brother, I've seen BOTH!

[SylasGaunt]

As a Slayer: She is mildly prescient (prophetic Dreams, etc), and able to sense Vampires (though she doesn't do that very often), Inate apitude with medival weaponry, the ability to take most spooky-stuff in stride, above human reaction time, above-human strength (not to Lee's level), and other things...

Buffy herself is highly perseptive, willful and witty.

She'll be fine then since Lee tends to specialize more in the breaking stuff area.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Grr.

once again anime is ripping off Hong Kong
Anyone remember "The Five Deadly Poisons" the guy whose job it was to run up a roller track with a very steep incline was ridiculed by the whole of the poison clan for not having some super deadly style, and pressure point technique. friend centipede was Brock before there was a brock....


what's next Chow Yun-Fat gonna show up and kill every single bad guy?

[Hamel]

*drops phoenix down on thread*

I'm sorry, Rock Lee has Chow Yun-Fat beat in terms of "yes, let's hit it" factor

[SirNitram]

Necromancy bad.