My Little Pony

[lordofchange13]

This is my favorite episode after the Halloween one!

At last proof that the pony'a had at one point a military, get to writing evilsoup. Also it is now canon that earth ponys can make plants spontaneously grow in fertilized dirt.

[Xess]

That was a fantastic episode. I wonder when exactly Celestia and Luna came into the picture, and what happened to the old pony lands? So many fanfic opportunities!

[Crazedwraith]

Given how much the character in the play seemed to resemble the mane 6 acting them, I wonder how much that story changes from telling to re-telling.

Good episode but I was sad no Celestia or Luna were there to view the pageant.

[Zixinus]

Thoughts as I watch:

Woohoo, we see a properly working train! Confirmation that the one we saw previously was a joke.

Rarity: "knows stage frightness when I see it" my ass.

Why in the world did Celestia choose the Mane 6 for the re-enactment? Yeah, out-of-universe, the reason is obvious, but what possible justification is there for it in-universe? The Mane 6 aren't actors (and it shows!)!

Spike has a faux-Shakespeare voice thing. Adorable!

Princess Platinum. This explains Blueblood.

They certainly are good at showing utter chaos in a political meeting. Everyone is talking at once and all aside each other. XD

Mighty tribe of warriors? Oh, dear... the implications...

Oh, look, they are (cut and cleaned) gems in the ground! Confirmation how abundant gems are in Equastria.

There is no explanation as to how does Celestia or Luna get involved. Damn.

End of thoughts-as-I-watch

Given how much the character in the play seemed to resemble the mane 6 acting them, I wonder how much that story changes from telling to re-telling.

I don't think so. It might be just an animation scene-tool (so the watchers wouldn't be seeing hastily-made drama sets all the time).

Personally, I think the "real" story could easily be far more complicated and layered. I mean, I doubt that the very leader of each tribe and their personal servant was used to scout for new land.

Overall, I like the episode. My only criticism is that the hugs after the show could have been a group-hug or ponies hugging ponies from other tribes (unicorn with earth, etc). That would have been nicely symbolic of the ending of hostilities.

[lordofchange13]

Why in the world did Celestia choose the Mane 6 for the re-enactment? Yeah, out-of-universe, the reason is obvious, but what possible justification is there for it in-universe? The Mane 6 aren't actors (and it shows!)!

Maby they were the first ones to have the lements of harmony, so the characters will be acted out by their superusers.

[Zixinus]

Why in the world did Celestia choose the Mane 6 for the re-enactment? Yeah, out-of-universe, the reason is obvious, but what possible justification is there for it in-universe? The Mane 6 aren't actors (and it shows!)!

Maby they were the first ones to have the lements of harmony, so the characters will be acted out by their superusers.

I'm sorry, what? Yes, the Mane 6 are the Bearers of EoH, but how does that make them competent actors?

[evilsoup]

When we had the Luna episode, it blew a bit of my head-canon out of the water, but it was a great episode anyway.
This episode did the same thing. I had Celestia and Luna uniting the warring ponies by force, but this was a much better (and better-fitting) idea. But there were direct mentions of war, and even an organised army system amongst the Pegasi - with ranks like 'private'. Given what we've seen of the Wonderbolts in 'Secret of My Excess', maybe they started off as an offshoot of that? Given that the other groups don't seem to have the same system, the pegasi must have had wars with an external group... I'm going to go with the griffons.

It was interesting to see the governing systems of the three 'tribes'. The Pegasi leader is also a military leader, that implies rule by military Junta. The unicorns seem to have a hereditary monarchy of some kind (led by a princess, I assume the 'unicorn king' was incapacitated on his golden throne or something, given that she was introduced as his daughter). The earth ponies seem to have a democracy, with at least an elected chancellor.

That 'system of government' point feeds into a general sense that I had, that the earth ponies were the most sympathetic of the groups here. Look at the flags they were using (about 5:40 into the episode): the unicorns have a stylised unicorn, the pegasi a stylised pegasus; while the earth ponies have a 'four seasons' theme to their flag. In my opinion, that shows that they really value their link to the earth, as opposed to being narcissistic like the other two groups (probably as a result of the kind of populist/nationalist stuff you need to maintain a military junta/hereditary royalty, which you don't really need to maintain a democracy).

Also, shouldn't the Pegasi have had a look around, to see where all this mysterious snow was coming from (and then murder it in the face)? Shouldn't the unicorns have used their apparent library of knowledge and researchers into magic to figure it out (and then toldasked nicely for the Pegasi to go murder it in the face)? I mean, that's the whole 'social contract' they seemed to have going on, and they expect free food from the earth ponies when they don't keep up their side of the deal - and make no obvious attempt to keep up their side of the deal?

Also, look at the why they each chose their new land (which was clearly supposed to be Ponyville, what with that mountain being the same one as from 'Dragonshy', and Fluttershy/Private Pansy's 'I can see my future house from up here'): the Pegasi leader chose 'Pegasopalis' because it had a cool view, the unicorn leader chose 'Unicornia' for it gems (ffs), and the earth pony leader 'Earth' for it's fertile land. One of these is a valid reason for starting a new country.

Hells, the fact that the earth ponies call themselves 'earth ponies' instead of making up a new word - the pegasi should really be 'sky ponies' and the unicorns 'magic ponies' - tells us a lot. With all this information, we know that within their culture they value their connection to the earth very highly. They name themselves after what they do, whereas the other tribes name themselves after what they are: unicorns obviously for the one horn; pegasus... well, according to wikipedia, the etymology of that word either comes from an old word for 'lightning' or the name of a lightning-god - either of which is pretty self-aggrandising.

Of course, all of this is me reading too much into a play based on events more than a thousand years in the past. There is at least one anachronism: the flag they use at the end is a 'modern' Equestrian symbol, with Celestia and Luna circling the sun and moon (see 19:56 into the episode) - but it would make much more sense for them to use some kind of 'the three tribes united' theme. And the play must be a simplified version of events, for example with its glossing over of the semi-feudal system at the beginning.

At last proof that the pony'a had at one point a military, get to writing evilsoup.

The latest chapter's at 2000 words, but I can't quite figure out how to finish it. It should definitely be up this side of Christmas, though.

Zixinus: I think he's saying that the ponies represented here might count as the first bearers of the elements of harmony, so the mane cast (as the current bearers) might somehow be able to 'channel' them.

[Zixinus]

Of course, all of this is me reading too much into a play based on events more than a thousand years in the past. There is at least one anachronism: the flag they use at the end is a 'modern' Equestrian symbol, with Celestia and Luna circling the sun and moon (see 19:56 into the episode) - but it would make much more sense for them to use some kind of 'the three tribes united' theme. And the play must be a simplified version of events, for example with its glossing over of the semi-feudal system at the beginning.

I'm guessing that too. Again, they sent only their LEADER and ONE MANSERVANT to SCOUT AN ENTIRE NEW LAND?

Not to mention numerous other problems presented, the gems, the fact that they didn't see each other, etc. What we see is a poetic, dramatized, idealized and simplified version of the story, probably re-written for thousand years.

Or was it thousand years? Am I the only one that caught a number of years?

EDIT:

Zixinus: I think he's saying that the ponies represented here might count as the first bearers of the elements of harmony, so the mane cast (as the current bearers) might somehow be able to 'channel' them.

That doesn't make any sense to me. There was no mention of the Elements of Harmony.

[lordofchange13]

Why in the world did Celestia choose the Mane 6 for the re-enactment? Yeah, out-of-universe, the reason is obvious, but what possible justification is there for it in-universe? The Mane 6 aren't actors (and it shows!)!

Maby they were the first ones to have the lements of harmony, so the characters will be acted out by their superusers.

I'm sorry, what? Yes, the Mane 6 are the Bearers of EoH, but how does that make them competent actors?

Not saying their good actors, When i was in school my theater teachers tried to cast people with characters who have a similar personality. Thought Celestia might be doing something like that for the play.

EDIT: what evilsoup said. And can't wait for the new chapter.

[Zixinus]

Not saying their good actors, When i was in school my theater teachers tried to cast people with characters who have a similar personality. Thought Celestia might be doing something like that for the play.

EDIT: what evilsoup said. And can't wait for the new chapter.

The idea that Celestia chose them because they have similar personalities does make some sense. Especially if you consider their friendship.

Though, out of a entire kingdom's worth of ponies, all she had were six ponies?

[evilsoup]

The way they defeated the 'windigos' (lol) at the end was very reminiscent of how the EoH have worked when we've seen them (i.e. Twilight/whatever pony she was playing harnessing the magical energy of friendship to shoot a big honking beam of energy at them). So it could have been a proto-elements of harmony, like the actions of these ponies created the elements.

If Celestia somehow knew this (possibly because she and her sister - and some other ponies? - were wielders of the elements against Discord), then she may have cast them because of that.

I don't subscribe to this theory, I think Celestia chose them because nepotism: she wants her student to have a new experience with her friends.

Also, there was no 'dear princess Celestia...' letter at the end of this one. Which is a first, outside of the two-parter season-openers. I think.

[Zixinus]

I propose to name the heart-thing "Fire of Friendship", it was clearly what was Spike was talking about.

I doubt that it was the "prototype" or "raw" form of the Elements of Harmony. For one thing, the thing was seen at the end of the episode as well.

I don't subscribe to this theory, I think Celestia chose them because nepotism: she wants her student to have a new experience with her friends.

I have to agree with you there. That seems like her.

Also, there was no 'dear princess Celestia...' letter at the end of this one. Which is a first, outside of the two-parter season-openers. I think.

Yes, I noticed that too. I am happy about the song too.

[Bright]

There is at least one anachronism: the flag they use at the end is a 'modern' Equestrian symbol, with Celestia and Luna circling the sun and moon (see 19:56 into the episode) - but it would make much more sense for them to use some kind of 'the three tribes united' theme.

That's exactly what they did though! Since Celestia and Luna are meant to be a combination of unicorns, pegasi and earth ponies, they work perfectly as a symbol of the unity of the three pony races.

Actually, this episode made me wonder about the Princesses' origins more than anything. I would theorize that they were, in fact, "created" by ordinary ponies. That is to say, they were originally invented as the symbols of the newly founded Equestria, but as time went on, had mythology attached to them and began to be worshipped as deities (if you actually accept them as such, at least). Eventually, they manifested physically from their beliefs of their followers due to some sort of Neil Gaiman-esque thing. TV Tropes would call this Clap Your Hands If You Believe.

Why in the world did Celestia choose the Mane 6 for the re-enactment? Yeah, out-of-universe, the reason is obvious, but what possible justification is there for it in-universe? The Mane 6 aren't actors (and it shows!)!

Well, Twilight did suggest Celestia picked them because they're the exemplars of friendship in Equestria.

[evilsoup]

My theory with Celestia and Luna is that they were supremely talented unicorns who managed to give themselves wings and immortality. Possibly they got so powerful with use of the Elements of Harmony.

In my opinion, the flag doesn't work as an 'all the ponies united' symbol. It has two ponies, rather than three as would be ideal (one of each tribe), and has the sun-and-moon motif - which has no significance in the story we were told, and raising the sun and moon is established to have been the responsibility of the unicorns: why should it have a privileged place on the flag, when there's nothing to represent the other two tribes?

No, I think it's pretty clear that the flag was used because everypony in the audience would recognise it as representing Equestria. An acceptable anachronism, like how most American historical films use the modern stars-and-stripes, to avoid confusing people.

[Zixinus]

Again, I suspect that the play was meant to be a simple interpretation for the sake of tradition, not anything historically accurate (I can imagine that the Mane 6 deliberately picked a simpler script, knowing that they were essentially amateur actors and all).

I'd imagine that the whole affair was much more complex. For one thing, under the united Equastria, who would rule? Would the Earth ponies still exploited for food and how? A treaty would make sense in that respect, rather than just somehow coming together into one kingdom suddenly. A treaty from which more complex forms of interactions formed, including eventually an unification (maybe under Celestia and Luna?).

[evilsoup]

Well yes, it was obviously a simplification.

We've seen the aristocracy in multiple episodes, and they're all (so far as I remember) unicorns. So the status quo at the beginning of the play is pretty much restored after the events, just in a new land, and with the whole friendship thing acting to reduce tensions.

I mean, it's basically the same situation in modern-day Equestria: the earth ponies grow the food, the pegasi control the weather, and the unicorns probably do something. Enchant all the seemingly-electronic technology they use, maybe. Except before, the unicorns and the pegasi were lording it over the earth pony peasants; now, everyone gets along. The earth ponies are still providing the food, but they don't feel resentful because the others aren't assholes about it.

So we have the unicorn-aristocracy, but at the local level we have mayor mare... considering Ponyville was founded by earth ponies, maybe they have an elected mayor? Of course, all of this would have been rendered relatively unimportant with the coming of Celestia and Luna.

[Skgoa]

Many of the things I came to the thread to discuss have already gone over, but there is one litte bitter afterthought to this otherwise very awesome episode: 'Harmony' and 'friendship' aren't virtues in Equestria that come to be through the inherent magic of the place or the inhabitants, as we were led to believe. Instead, it is enforced by the threat of punishment of death through starvation. And not just death for those who sin against this prime commandment, but utter genocide of all ponies.
That's a pretty... vaderian way of enforcing cooperation. I wonder if this is Discord's work, maybe this is his first step on the way to the dark side. Think about it: he is an ancient magical being that is as powerful as it is bored. At some point he figures out that he has almost absolute power over 'lesser' beings. So he forces them to behave the way he wants. At some point he gets even more bored and just throws all consideration to the wind, turning Equestria into a surrealistic art-piece. But the magic of Harmony, that he himself had infused into the ponies, has manifested itself into the Elements of Harmony. Since he had forgotten about the 'anti Discord magic' he himself had created, he is cought with his metaphorical pants down and defeated.
From that point on, into every generation they are born: 6 ponies in all of Equestria, the chosen ones. They alone will wield the strength and skill to fight the dragons, manticores, and the forces of darkness; to stop the spread of their evil and the swell of their number. They are the Bearers of the Elements.
Spoiler

Yes, I had to go there. After they killed my newest idea to retcon my fanfic into compatibility with the newest canon for the third week in a row, I just had to sink my crossover teeth into it.

[Serafina]

Loved the episode.

A note: I wouldn't really call what the three tribes had a social contract. To me it seemed much more like a feudal system, where the Pegasi and Unicorns took the Earth Ponies food more or less by force.

[evilsoup]

Well, feudal systems do have a social contract... just a very lopsided one.

Look at the CMCs, when Spike is explaining the feudal system to the audience. They have an intensely interested 'wft' look on their faces, and even look a little uncomfortable. Like a mixed-race group of friends (EDIT: by which I mean, 'a group of friends from multiple racial backgrounds', the relevant analogue here being a group of two white and one black children) hearing their first reference to slavery in a piece of entertainment. Or maybe I'm projecting.

'Harmony' and 'friendship' aren't virtues in Equestria that come to be through the inherent magic of the place or the inhabitants, as we were led to believe. Instead, it is enforced by the threat of punishment of death through starvation. And not just death for those who sin against this prime commandment, but utter genocide of all ponies.

Did you somehow miss the bit where none of the ponies were getting on with each other? There was no harmony between the 'tribes'. Furthermore, it only took friendship between three ponies to utterly defeat the threat and end the blizzard. So your maths is backwards: even with all the other ponies hating each other, that small friendship was able to save the day.

And I think it's much more satisfying to have the whole friendship/harmony thing be something that needs to be worked on, rather than an inherent function of the magical ponies. Even without the blizzard, something would have come along to destabilise their shitty system.

[Serafina]

Different varieties of ponies still seem to largely live with their own kind however.
Cloudsadale is obviously a pure Pegasus-Town.
Canterlot is dominantly inhabited by Unicorn.
And Appleloosa is primarily inhabited by Earth Ponies.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. They are now one nation, and no longer different tribes, and there aren't any hostilities between the different kinds of Ponies. That's pretty good, considering that (unlike in real life), different kinds of ponies have widely different abilities: Only Pegasi can inhabit a town made out of clouds, Unicorns are better suited to a "non-uncouth" lifestyle and academics due to their magic, and Earth Ponies are better at making the frontier habitable.

Towns like Ponyville (and i assume that there are more of those than of the examples above) are a good example of how united Ponykind works.

[evilsoup]

It should also be noted that, in modern Equestria, there is no hint of prejudice amongst the different tribes. For example, when the fancy Canterlot ponies were mocking the mane cast for being from provincial Ponyville, there was no sense of them targeting the non-unicorns specifically - they were equal opportunity jerks. Likewise while Appleousia (?) was an entirely earth pony town, there was not even a single raised eyebrow over two unicorns and two pegasi coming to visit: they were just accepted without comment.

This would suggest that Ponyville-style integration is the norm, and places like Canterlot (possibly distorted due to Celestia's school?), Cloudsdale, and Appleousia are exceptions. Of course, the entirely earth pony population of Appleousia is a pretty big counter-argument to this theory: you'd expect them to at least have one or two pegasi to control the weather (and provide air support in the Battle of Wounded Pie)...

[lordofchange13]

It should also be noted that, in modern Equestria, there is no hint of prejudice amongst the different tribes. For example, when the fancy Canterlot ponies were mocking the mane cast for being from provincial Ponyville, there was no sense of them targeting the non-unicorns specifically - they were equal opportunity jerks. Likewise while Appleousia (?) was an entirely earth pony town, there was not even a single raised eyebrow over two unicorns and two pegasi coming to visit: they were just accepted without comment.

This would suggest that Ponyville-style integration is the norm, and places like Canterlot (possibly distorted due to Celestia's school?), Cloudsdale, and Appleousia are exceptions. Of course, the entirely earth pony population of Appleousia is a pretty big counter-argument to this theory: you'd expect them to at least have one or two pegasi to control the weather (and provide air support in the Battle of Wounded Pie)...

The tribes were joined together at least a thousand in the past, social prejudices usually will not last for that long.

[Serafina]

Prejudice might not last that long on it's own, but since there ARE significant differences between the pony kinds, it wouldn't have to last on it's own. Pegasi could look down on the others because they are slow and earth-bound, Unicorns could look down on the others because they are unrefined and simple-minded (due to not being able do to stuff via magic) and Earth ponies could look down on others due to lack of physical strength and connection with the land.

There is plenty of potential for racial tension, but apparently the magic of friendship has overcome it

[Skgoa]

'Harmony' and 'friendship' aren't virtues in Equestria that come to be through the inherent magic of the place or the inhabitants, as we were led to believe. Instead, it is enforced by the threat of punishment of death through starvation. And not just death for those who sin against this prime commandment, but utter genocide of all ponies.

Did you somehow miss the bit where none of the ponies were getting on with each other? There was no harmony between the 'tribes'. Furthermore, it only took friendship between three ponies to utterly defeat the threat and end the blizzard. So your maths is backwards: even with all the other ponies hating each other, that small friendship was able to save the day.

And I think it's much more satisfying to have the whole friendship/harmony thing be something that needs to be worked on, rather than an inherent function of the magical ponies. Even without the blizzard, something would have come along to destabilise their shitty system.

Eeew, you have gotten your logic all over my fanon!

[lordofchange13]

Prejudice might not last that long on it's own, but since there ARE significant differences between the pony kinds, it wouldn't have to last on it's own. Pegasi could look down on the others because they are slow and earth-bound, Unicorns could look down on the others because they are unrefined and simple-minded (due to not being able do to stuff via magic) and Earth ponies could look down on others due to lack of physical strength and connection with the land.

There is plenty of potential for racial tension, but apparently the magic of friendship has overcome it

Yes, but after a 1000+ years of close coexistence i would think they would stop giving a crap about genetic differences. Thought i have no evidence to my point, can't think of any 2 groups of people who have lived directly with each other for that long. I guess that in a world were friendship can create LAZER'S it doesn't really matter.

Are the princesses suppose to be gods or just normal ponys who happen to have wings and a horn? My friend asked me to day and i don't actually know.