Why do you assume this has to be a binding effect and not some kind of 'soul cannot come back here' repulsion effect?
The way Xykon talks about the various ways to attain immortality suggests you're right. Why become an undead if it won't save you from going to whichever hell you're deemed to deserve? Or delay it, at least.
I was going to make the point that Xykon didn't die when he became dead, he had complete continuity where his flesh crumples off his body. Where as Vampires die and come back later. But he does explicitly mention vampires in his 'do anything to avoid the fires below' speech to V.
It still seems odd to me. I mean there's no mechanism on souls that know whether its going to be vamped three days later or whatever. So does it shoot off to the clouds and then get dragged back when the corpse is vampire? Or is there some ineffability that means if you're going to get vampire you soul stays put?
Crazedwraith wrote:Why do you assume this has to be a binding effect and not some kind of 'soul cannot come back here' repulsion effect?
Because True Resurrection doesn't require the original body. To be a repulsion effect, every single 1HD zombie would have to put out its own "soul cannot come back anywhere" field that is so powerful that it crosses planar boundaries and still overpowers Level 9 spells.
Crazedwraith wrote:It still seems odd to me. I mean there's no mechanism on souls that know whether its going to be vamped three days later or whatever. So does it shoot off to the clouds and then get dragged back when the corpse is vampire? Or is there some ineffability that means if you're going to get vampire you soul stays put?
There are at least one or two references in 3rd edition to the soul hanging around in this sort of limbo for a short time before being rezzed or passing on. I'm thinking of the description of the blood magus PrC in one of the splat books. I'll try to look it up later. But that's more of a "This is the most right answer" thing than something with hard canon.
Anyway, I'm not saying that the idea doesn't have merit, but I don't think it's the default anywhere I can think of outside of the Buffyverse, and I think it would cut down on the drama if Durkula flat out wasn't the same person as Durkon.
If I'm getting this right, if you resurrected Durkon you'd get the original Durkon, not the alignment-changed Durkon: the effect of becoming intelligent undead on your personality is reversible.
For any definable sense recognizable to, say, a real-world psychologist, Durkula really is Durkon, no question about it. Any differences between the two depend on the nature of the soul, in which case anything goes, because there seem to be a LOT of different versions of how that works, even within D&D.
I wonder if Tarquin actually buys Nale's spin on his "swooping".
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
Because it's Tarq, and he's as genre-savvy as only age and experience can be. He's also setting Nale up to do the Villianious work for him.
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
And he's been shown to both approve of and support Elan's heroism. And he's a part of the world with no interest in being destroyed or ruled by Xykon. Could it be that he also doesn't lose his cool when thwarted, but remains entirely pragmatic, even sporting, about the whole thing?
I love this guy. Lawful Evil, done perfect.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
yeah all too often you see the "stupid evil" stereotype when dealing with evil characters be they lawfull, neutral or chaotic, it's good to see a character who isn't hell bent (excuse the pun) on doing evil deeds even if it hurts his stated goals and can do neutral or even good actions if it futhers those goalsor at least isn't totally against those goals.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
When said "When Evil fights Evil it's always a toss up" shows just how spot on and savey Tarq really is.
God I love his character!
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan Read "Tales From The Crossroads"! Read "One Wrong Turn"!
I'm don't know whether he's lying to set up his interference later on (the way he did a hundred strips ago) or if he's actually going to sit the rest of the story out. I'm not sure which I prefer.
Nale sure managed to dig his own grave, there. Sabine's going to freak out - I wonder how the IFCC are going to react to losing their Linear Guild puppets.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
What did Nale think was going to happen. It seems his ego can never ever let him admit he's wrong. His Dad doesn't seem to have that problem.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
Isolder74 wrote:What did Nale think was going to happen.
Given how upset he was, I don't think he was thinking. He just let his emotions run away with his mouth, and paid the price.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
what the fuck was that? That's just the anti-climaxiest death ever. I hope that's not really the end of Nale.
Because the villian who's been around since strip #43 deserves better than being offed by Tarquin, villian of latest book, no matter how much of a wanky fan favourite he is.
what the fuck was that? That's just the anti-climaxiest death ever. I hope that's not really the end of Nale.
Because the villian who's been around since strip #43 deserves better than being offed by Tarquin, villian of latest book, no matter how much of a wanky fan favourite he is.
Spoiler
Even though this is an entirely in-character way for things to play out, you have a point. This is how the Linear Guild arc ends? I'm not even against having Tarquin do it, or against having Nale's desire to tell daddy to go fuck himself lead to his demise. The timing is suspect, that's all. I expected to hear more of Nale's side of the story about his upbringing under arrogant-warlord-dad before it came to this.
Assuming Nale is really permanently gone, Sabine is going to be unhappy.
I personally think it makes a lot of narrative sense. Elan has defeated Nale multiple times, and every time, Nale has escaped death due to Elan's Neutral(?) Good nature. Especially given the Tarquin family's genre-savviness, it can be assumed that Nale would always escape, because Elan would always refuse to kill him. Having the Lawful Evil father do what the Good son could not is the only way it was going to end, really, and Nale gave him all the excuse he needed by killing Malack and showing no regret.
I personally think it makes a lot of narrative sense. Elan has defeated Nale multiple times, and every time, Nale has escaped death due to Elan's Neutral(?) Good nature. Especially given the Tarquin family's genre-savviness, it can be assumed that Nale would always escape, because Elan would always refuse to kill him. Having the Lawful Evil father do what the Good son could not is the only way it was going to end, really, and Nale gave him all the excuse he needed by killing Malack and showing no regret.
Spoiler
Sure, it's not implausible or anything. It's not even that big of a surprise. Who saw the Malack death strip and didn't think "Welp, good chance Tarquin kills Nale for this"? I did think it would happen later on. Maybe have Nale escape the final battle between Xykon and the Order, getcaught by Tarquin and have events play out as we just saw. But then thats more of an epilogue, and still an anticlimax.
Like anything else in this strip I can't really judge it until I see the consequences.
Crazedwraith wrote:Personally I tend to think of 'logical but not narratively satisfying' as bad thing for a story to be.
I think it works narratively too. Elan has a well-established pattern of letting his mouth and ego go off and turn victory into defeat. Killing him off casually like that was a gamble on Burlew's part, but I think it's one that works. On more than one level, even; dying anti-climatically and pointlessly is basically the last thing Tarquin would want for Nale. Ditto for Nale's ego.
The thing that's appropriate here is that Nale is so caught up in the psychological aspect of telling his father he doesn't need his help, that he completely forgets what Tarquin is likely to do in response. He doesn't expect to be held accountable for that action.
It's been one of his biggest character defects throughout the series- he's so antagonistic and self-important that he cannot deal with people in equal or superior positions. All he can do is betray them and try to lord it over them, just as he did here. This is why all his ongoing allies are in some way subject to him- the lover who was explicltly sent to be his concubine, the half-witted half-orc, the quiet, seldom-speaking wizard, and so on.
Nale's been antagonizing everyone equal to or more powerful than himself since the days of Dungeon Crawling Fools. He finally did it to someone ruthless enough to react violently to that kind of behavior- as Elan and the Azure City paladins were not.
Well, so much for Nale! He really had it coming from, well, every single angle i can think of.
Plus, it fits his character perfectly IMO.
SoS:NBAGALE Force "Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
It isn't Tarquin beating him that's the important bit, it's his character arc culminating (this time?) with him refusing to see reason and picking fights till he couldn't win that makes it satisfying. Honestly I'm half expecting him to get raised and for it to be a learning experience, because who says only good guys don't get character development?
