The OotS Thread III

[LadyTevar]

Spoiler

It isn't Tarquin beating him that's the important bit, it's his character arc culminating (this time?) with him refusing to see reason and picking fights till he couldn't win that makes it satisfying. Honestly I'm half expecting him to get raised and for it to be a learning experience, because who says only good guys don't get character development?

I fully agree with your assessment of what might happen next.

Still... total OMGWTF. And somehow, surprisingly, I think this is what will make Elan truly want to see his Dad overthrown. For all Nale's assholeness, Elan still saw him as Brother

[Spekio]

Spoiler

Guys, Elan is going to flip out!

[Gaidin]

Spoiler

It isn't Tarquin beating him that's the important bit, it's his character arc culminating (this time?) with him refusing to see reason and picking fights till he couldn't win that makes it satisfying. Honestly I'm half expecting him to get raised and for it to be a learning experience, because who says only good guys don't get character development?

Spoiler

Him getting raised would be like all those times where he got locked up and broke out. A consequence he didn't really have to worry about. It wouldn't hit home. He wouldn't develop. The point of Nale's character is that he'd never develop persay. His development is that the rocks just fell and he died. Especially since it was his own father that did it. And it sets up Tarquin to be the big bad again once the Order deals with Xykon.

[Kuja]

I don't think so. I think Elan may well use the shock from this as his motivation to finally off Tarquin.

The army won't interfere, and the psion won't interfere, because this is what Tarquin wants. The climactic fight with the heroes in front of a thousand witnesses.

Then the Order will move on to the final dungeon - nothing left but them, Xykon, and the extraplanar manipulations of the IFFC for the climactic encounter of the campaign.

[xthetenth]

Spoiler

It isn't Tarquin beating him that's the important bit, it's his character arc culminating (this time?) with him refusing to see reason and picking fights till he couldn't win that makes it satisfying. Honestly I'm half expecting him to get raised and for it to be a learning experience, because who says only good guys don't get character development?

Spoiler

Him getting raised would be like all those times where he got locked up and broke out. A consequence he didn't really have to worry about. It wouldn't hit home. He wouldn't develop. The point of Nale's character is that he'd never develop persay. His development is that the rocks just fell and he died. Especially since it was his own father that did it. And it sets up Tarquin to be the big bad again once the Order deals with Xykon.

Spoiler

True. However, with serious enough costs to the right people or a heavy enough quid pro quo it could work. However you may very well be right.

[Irbis]

I don't think so. I think Elan may well use the shock from this as his motivation to finally off Tarquin.

That assumes OotS in its current, heavily depleted state would fare far better than fresh one did some dozens of strips ago.

[Alkaloid]

Spoiler

what the fuck was that? That's just the anti-climaxiest death ever. I hope that's not really the end of Nale.

Because the villian who's been around since strip #43 deserves better than being offed by Tarquin, villian of latest book, no matter how much of a wanky fan favourite he is.

He really doesn't though. One of the relatively consistent things about OOTS pretty much from day one has been that it's a twist on your stereotypical D&D campaign. The Order are actual characters rather then minmaxed powergaming wankers, old adventuring parties don't remain friends to the end of their days, NPCs are people with lives and they often die horribly and alone for our amusement and we are expected to care. In the middle of all that, the linear guild are a standard 'nemesis' sort of group. They exist only to fight and loose to the heroes, and they aren't clever or dangerous they are self involved, incompetent and a little pathetic. Their recent string of demises have all been designed to point that out. Nale as their leader was the worst of the lot, as bland and uninteresting as his final fight

[Serafina]

Well, Nale was starting his own Gate-related plot - but that would be just one amongst at least three other parties (Order, Xykon, Fiends) with even more sub-divided plans (Xykon vs. Redcloak), so i don't think it would have added much to the story.

[Ralin]

Of course, Nale was pretty heavily involved with fiends. Sabine/Sabine's superiors almost certainly have dibs on his soul. So that's another way he might continue to be part of the story.

Remember, she did say that he has "serious potential."

[LadyTevar]

*whistles* The Fiends were watching this. Sabine and V both saw this "I brought you into the world, I can take you out" moment

[Civil War Man]

It was pretty shocking, but not surprising. Nale's defining characteristic is that he thinks he's a lot more clever than he really is. One of his first appearances has him dissing Elan for being a Bard, when his build was absolutely horrendous. All of his plots are unnecessarily complicated with big gaping holes in it, and everyone noticed it, up to and including Tarquin's criticism of his half-baked gate plot. It was only a matter of time before he mouthed off to the wrong person and something like this happened to him.

[Terralthra]

Heh - Nale's build isn't just horrendous, it was effectively a poorly-done clone of a Bard's abilities.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Heh - Nale's build isn't just horrendous, it was effectively a poorly-done clone of a Bard's abilities.

Yes, part of his whole silly "evil opposites" routine.

[Serafina]

And his "overly complicated" theme.

[Irbis]

Heh - Nale's build isn't just horrendous, it was effectively a poorly-done clone of a Bard's abilities.

Yeah, poorly done clone with Sorc/Wizard spell list, Sneak Attack, better saves, with sprinkle of Rogue's skill points and Fighter's BAB / feats. Read, better literally at everything, the only thing of note Nale lost was bardic lore and songs (which can be nice sometimes, but to be really effective Bard needs tons of splatbooks, sadly).

Yes, F/R/S build is easy to be made bad, really easy, but unlike Bard most of these can be also easily fixed. Plus, it's not like Elan made any good decisions, even his post-character growth level-up choices are terrible, so before they must have been truly atrocious. Remember his speech on cross class skills?

[Simon_Jester]

Although we don't know just how effective that level of Dashing Swordsman makes him...

[Rogue 9]

Heh - Nale's build isn't just horrendous, it was effectively a poorly-done clone of a Bard's abilities.

Yeah, poorly done clone with Sorc/Wizard spell list, Sneak Attack, better saves, with sprinkle of Rogue's skill points and Fighter's BAB / feats. Read, better literally at everything, the only thing of note Nale lost was bardic lore and songs (which can be nice sometimes, but to be really effective Bard needs tons of splatbooks, sadly).

Yes, F/R/S build is easy to be made bad, really easy, but unlike Bard most of these can be also easily fixed. Plus, it's not like Elan made any good decisions, even his post-character growth level-up choices are terrible, so before they must have been truly atrocious. Remember his speech on cross class skills?

The fighter's BAB is completely canceled out by the sorcerer's. Assuming he's keeping his levels in the three classes about equal, it averages out the same. His caster level will also completely suck, being 1/3 his character level rather than equal to it. And he explicitly chose spells that were also on the bard list. The only real advantage it nets him is fighter bonus feats, and that's more than canceled out by the fact he's unable to use one of the fighter's larger assets, armor proficiency. Unlike bards, sorcerers don't get free casting in light armor.

[Serafina]

I don't see much advantage in having access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list if you have that little spells known and caster level.
As soon as you get into mid-levels, caster level becomes immensely important for overcoming spell resistance - Nale has basically no chance at all to do that.

Not to mention that the Bard-spell list does most of the important stuff - Buffing&Debuffing - almost as well as Sorcerers/Wizards, especially if you stick to Core-spells. Bards aren't as good at it because their spellcasting progresses slower, but so does Nales because of his multiclassing.
The Bard-spell list is slightly worse at Battlefield Control - but they do get goodies like Grease, and good Illusions which can be useful for that job as well.

What a Bard spell-list can't do is Blasting (horrible anyway) and lots of Utility (create Minions, long-range teleport, flight, divinations and more). But for a secondary spellcaster, it's almost as good as the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

So, even in Core, a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer is a worse build than just plain Bard. Out of Core, with some Optimization, the Bard becomes stellar in comparison.


Oh, and it doesn't even grant more skill points - a Bard gets 6 per level, while both Fighters and Sorcerers only get 2, while a Rogue gets 8. So even if half your levels were Rogue-levels, you would lose a lot of skill points that way. Oh, and even just a PHB-II ACF for the Bard makes them waaay better Skill Monkeys - properly done Bardic Knack basically gives you ALL skill at Cross-Class-Rank levels.

[Ralin]

Assuming he's keeping his levels in the three classes about equal, it averages out the same.

He probably didn't. Nale's build probably looks something like Fighter 2 (two extra feats), Rogue 3 (2d6 sneak attack) and Sorcerer X.

Which still isn't very good, but it's what makes the most sense from a mechanical standpoint.

[Serafina]

That sounds likely.
But it also means that you end up with less skill points, less hit points, a worse BAB, no armor and (mostly) less and lower-level spells. All for two feats, 2D6 damage, evasion and trapfinding (the latter of which you don't have the spells to use).

At 10th level, the Bard will get 4th-level spells while the Gish will be stuck with 2nd-level spells. At 15th level, the Gish goes up to 5th-level spells, but so does the Bard - it takes four more levels for the Gish to pull ahead and gain 7th-level spells.
BAB goes from +6 at 10th to +9 at 15th for the Gish, while it goes from +7 to +11 for the Bard.
Saves, the Gish is at +4/4/5 at 10th and +6/6/8 at 15th, while the Bard has +3/7/7 and +5/9/9.
The Gish gets a conditional +2D6 melee damage against which plenty of enemies are immune. The Bard gets +2/+3 to attacks and damage, though that can be replaced by some spells - but since it also benefits allies, it pulls ahead for damage as soon as you have two non-caster allies.

So really, even assuming core-only, the Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer is doing significantly worse than a Bard. Assuming decent optimization, the Bard becomes much better while the Gish can only profit in small ways.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Advantage of having even one level of Sorc/Wiz: You can use scrolls and wands for those spells without needing to make a UMD check. No matter how high your bonus gets you always have a 5% chance of failing it, so being able to use those spells without any additional skill investment can be pretty nice.

[Ralin]

More to the point, it's the sort of build that would seem min-maxed to Nale.

[Serafina]

Advantage of having even one level of Sorc/Wiz: You can use scrolls and wands for those spells without needing to make a UMD check. No matter how high your bonus gets you always have a 5% chance of failing it, so being able to use those spells without any additional skill investment can be pretty nice.

Skill checks actually aren't subject to Critical Failures, so you don't auto-fail on a 1. That's a good part of the appeal of the Concentration-check-to-save maneuvers from the Diamond Discipline, it negates the chance of auto-failing important saves.

But yes, a single level dip that way can be useful, and also gives you a (weak) familiar (potentially traded for something else) and Scribe Scroll (if dipping Wizard, can also be traded).
Heck, you can even trade Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat. Then swap out your familiar for Chains of Disbelief (Illusions are harder to disbelief, useful for a Bard) or something.

Still, considering that a Bard has good Charisma and gets UMD as a class skill, thats not really necessary.

[AMX]

I feel compelled to bring up comic #61.
Now Nale denied Tarquin.
Karma-riffic!

[Civil War Man]

Bards are pretty much the Aquaman of D&D. A few bad portrayals made most people assume that they are goofy and ineffective, when they are actually much more powerful than everyone gives them credit for.