Alucard vs Lasombra Elder

[Connor MacLeod]

And you reached this conclusion *how?*

Which conclusion?

Speed. The fact unless you've got a young vamp maxed out on Celerity Alucard undoubtly moves faster. He's got the speed and reflexes to shoot knives out the air.

And just how fast does anderson throw knives, pray tell? We're talking maybe a meter of separation between him and Victoria and MAYBE throwing 15-20 m/s (using the same basis Mike did in his IXJac debate for throwing a half-kilo knife).

You've still neglected to make any sort of comparison between a WoD vampire of average ability (you know, crunching numbers like some of us do when we want to reach a conclusion.)

Its quite probable he *does* have greater acceleration, but wheras I know *I* can prove it, I question whether you can.

Strength. Victoria, Alucard's newborn child can easily bend an MP-5s barrel. And with no apparent effort. That's a lot more force that your average WoD vampire has.

And just how much force is needed to bend a metal MP-5 barrel, exactly? I've tried doing the calcs, so If you've done them, please share the math with me. I'm quite curious.

On top of that, your thorough job at analysis neglected to give an appropriate comparison of WOD vampire ability.

Max lifting for a WOD vampire of Generation 8 to 13 is 5 dots of strength, which is 650 pounds (300 kg roughly - source the VTM sourcebook, 2nd edition.) This ignores blood point usage, of course, and Potence.

Lasombra have access to Potence. Given the description (VTM sourcebook 2nd edition) Potence can effortlessly p unch through concrete, toss cars aside (which is suggesting multi-ton capability, neglecting velocity and time) and leap so far/fast they appear to be "flying".) And that "even the lowest ranks" of Potence give vampires strength beyond "mortal bounds" - suggesting that a Vampire with even one or two dots of Potence has more strength than the strongest human - a claim substantiated by Ghouls: FAtal addiciton, where it claims that Ghoul Potence can "double" their lifting capacity without any training.
Depending on the strength and/or Potence rating, and what level of Alucard you use (Alucard wouldn't neccesarily deign to fight lesser opponents at full power, for that matter.), a WOD vampire might be more than a match.

Potence apparently can affect movement as well (IE leaping - which may actually help give a baseline on vampiric acceleration - if not by Celerity.)

Strike two, sparky.

Stamina. Simple. Alurcard's not limited by bloodpoint which are rapidly expended. Quite simply we haven't seen him tired to the point at which his abilities are useless.

Wow, how grossly simplified. Not all disciplines or activities neccesarily require blood point usage (potence doesnt, certain of the mental disciplines don't I believe, and vampires certainly don't expend it in soaking damage.) IIRC total loss of BP use renders a vampire into torpor, but thats it. Its not like the vampire HAS to use blood points.

Even allowing you this, all this really means is that Alucard can last longer than any of them (something we basically already knew.) It tells us nothing about say, durability, which IS a rather more useful comparison for purposes of the debate (for example, noting that while Alucard clearly comes back from all sorts of damage, bullets do not bounce off him. And while a WOD vampire does ha ve to expend blood points to heal, he can also readily and effortlessly soak many kinds of damage (including knife stabs and gunfire), especially with Fortitude.

There is also one advantage WoD vampires have over Hellsing ones, aside from the Hellsing vampires allergies to silver (there are actually more vulnerabilities than that, if we add the manga). Hellsing vampires (non-FREAK variety, at least) are in fact greatly affected by blessed objects and scripture (the "sheets" Anderson throws up. Apparently they are repelled by Scripture according to the Manga, and it can in fact bind their abilities.) - they have trouble healing injury from blessed or silver objects (Andersons knives, Alucard's own bullets.) - especially from hits to the head or heart.) WoD vampires by comparison can only be harmed by blessed objects if wielded by someone who possesses True Faith. And in fact its possible that some vampires (although among the Sabbat I find it unlikely in the extreme for this to occur) can also possess some measure of True Faith.

In short, let me remind you that some of us here are interested in carrying out an objective debate, and that we appreciate it when other people make an effort to do so too (making calcs, comparing numbers, citing references, etc.) So in the future it would be appreicated if you would refrain from making vague, unsubstantiated claims that have little more value than opinions.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is beginning to sound like Dueling Fanboys....

I haven't seen Hellsing yet...

But this is really rather strange.

How so? I'm trying to keep objective about this, but I am admittedly limited by my knowledge of WoD (its not nearly as all-encompassing as my knowledge of Hellsing is.) I can't speak for other Hellsing fans.

[Connor MacLeod]

Umm, that's all well and good but that particular discussion was about Alucard slaughtering a pack of ordinary Sabbat. I know the difference beween an ordinary vamp and a Methuselah.

Oh, well. My bad. Either way the stats are up there now for a weak Methusalah.

They are, IMHO rather conserative as well, disregarding the blood point boosting. A 5th Generation Meth can IIRC have a strength of 8. Amenti from Mummy (who can through their abilities gain strengths of eight) are indicated to be able to lift one of the stones of the Egyptian pyramids. From what I can gather on the web such stones tend to be be multi-ton objects (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egca12e.html), which suggests that by pure strength alone (ignoring any TK aspect) they can lift multi-ton objects. (this also suggests that as strength goes up, the increases between "dots" increases rather sharply at higher levels - a fact of interest to higher level methuselahs and Antes.)

This is also neglecting things LadyTevar mentioned regarding lifting strength, which suggests capabilities an order of magnitude or two higher.

[Captain Cyran]

They are, IMHO rather conserative as well, disregarding the blood point boosting. A 5th Generation Meth can IIRC have a strength of 8. Amenti from Mummy (who can through their abilities gain strengths of eight) are indicated to be able to lift one of the stones of the Egyptian pyramids. From what I can gather on the web such stones tend to be be multi-ton objects (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egca12e.html), which suggests that by pure strength alone (ignoring any TK aspect) they can lift multi-ton objects. (this also suggests that as strength goes up, the increases between "dots" increases rather sharply at higher levels - a fact of interest to higher level methuselahs and Antes.)

This is also neglecting things LadyTevar mentioned regarding lifting strength, which suggests capabilities an order of magnitude or two higher.

Yes, I know I was conservative with that. I wanted to show just a few of the things a weak 5th gen. can do, hense also showing why Anti's are considered to be gods by all except Caine.

But if what you said about what Potence does is correct, of adding tons to lifting ability, and also if it is true that the strength scale increases sharply, my strangth estimate may be far too low. Though my speed calculation should be sound.

[Connor MacLeod]

Give him a giant superlaser, and I imagine he could stick it in his pocket and walk around with it. Since he went to sleep before the advent of science, its unlikely that he does, but given the way White Wolf’s writing has gone…

Brilliant. It appears my point shot completely past your head without even a flicker of recognition.

No; barring obvious mental weakness, main characters always throw off mind control. Regardless, this is impossible to quantify. Its exactly the same thing as the problems figuring out if the Jedi Mind trick would work. Main characters seem to usually be immune, while minor ones or the goons aren’t. Wat exactly does “weak-minded mean, anyway”? There is no numerical answer.

Translation: "I want to be allowed to use my subjective bullshit opinions to justify my claims rather than any sort of factual proof."

Not hardly. He was playing with Incognito. Set/Incog barely scratched him. Why the hell would Alucard care whether they were pissed or not? He’s a blood-sucking killer, so what’s a few buildings? He wouldn’t care what anyone thought, and regardless, the only three people who mattered were going to be thanking him for saving the city.

1.) Justify the claim Alucard was just playing with Incognito, since this was not even proven in the anime.

2.) Incognito wasn't harmed much by Alucard during their final battle either. This proves nothing, except support my claim that they are more evenly matched than you claim (My theory being the simpler of the two theories.)

3.) Justify the claim that Alucard's lack of concern for people has no relevance on the effort he put into fighting. I might add to this we can also assume that he would be fighting at full ability BECAUSE he considered Incognito a challenge, and thus if Alucard were substantially more powerful, he would have squashed incognito like a bug.

As to the last point, Set/Incognito was a worthy opponent, but not nearly strong enough to be a threat. He wasn’t worthy because he was a challenge, but because he was smart, had some wicked magical powers, and actually did slow Alucard temporarily. Aside from that fact, Incognito was a true vampire, and not a chip-freak.

You don't call someone a worthy opponent or a challenge if you are orders of magnitude stronger than them. Obviously by your definition of "worthy", the Federation must still be a worthy opponent of the Empire, even neglecting the ICS figures. Observed fact shows them fighting at parity, and there is no reason to assume Alucard was "holding back" - by Occam's Razor, that is the simpler theory. IF you wish to prove that he was "holding back" (thereby adding an additional unknown to the equation), you must prove it.

On top of that, Luke Valentine (a chipped vampire) was considered a worthy threat initially, and the priest vampire from the first episode was nothing but an object of Alucard's contempt. The absence or presence of the chip is not a deciding factor in Alucard's regard to them - its their abilities (and in certain respects, their mentality) that earns Alucard's respect or contempt. (He can be contemptuous of Seras, a true vampire as well, for her weakness - especially in the manga. Likewise, he is immensely respectful of Integra and Walter, both very strong people, yet both clearly human.)

Some of them are nice, but some of them simply suck. They never bothered to print many of them up, I think. Most of them are simply linear evolutions in power.

If there isnt much data on them why the hell are you bothering to dismiss them in regards to Alucard? Its quite obvious you have the analytical ability of a retarded woodchuck, so I doubt this is from any sort of objective comparison of abilities on your part.

But the key is he wouldn’t attack them all at once. He usually doesn’t bother with front-line combat since its pointless. He’d slip around the shadows – and he can either be the shadows or simply teleport around if it pleases him – and kill them one by one, isolated. That is his modus operandi. He isn’t a pit fighter. The mages would be the mightiest opponent, so if Alucard knows what they can do (anything, which is why I hate Mage) he’ll just shoot them first. Revenants aren’t even worthy of consideration. But as Stormbringer said, none of these are very common and they’d never have all of them around. And probably not more than one of any particular subtype.

Oh yes, just like he did with the Tower of London in episode 12 and the church in episode 1 - oh wait...

His invulnerability/abilities tend to make him arrogant, which in fact makes him even MORE likely to take enemies from head-on. T his is consistently shown in both the anime and manga. In fact, he's VERY confrontational and liable to let his opponents take the first shot at him (another consistent fact from both anime and manga.)

This is an RPG system designed for fun play and because it looke neat. Quantification went out the window before we even began; anything you try to assign is probably a guess.

You DO realize that the SD.net BBS expects a certain modicum of logic be involved in its debates, right? For the record, tossing suspension of disbelief out the window ( a rather typical tactic among your kind, of course) is not logical. Nor is trying to pass off subjective bullshit as fact and attempting to defend your use of it.

However, Alucard has easily toasted very large numbers of highly skilled Vampires with super strength and toughness and speed, as well as armies of zombies, without even breaking a sweat. He usually only gets hit if he feels like it. Now, I’ve seen the stats on Werewolves and such. They are tough, but I guestimate that Alucard has very high strength himself, and that gun of his fires, if I recall, explosive shells capable of tearing through almost any wall you can imagine. Its as good as Seras (Celes) Victoria’s friggin’ Halkonnen Cannon, albeit smaller. With his accuracy it will punch right through any werewolf skull. Look, the doggies are impressive physically, but not that much. They can theoretically be taken down by a lucky farmer with a shotgun, much less an awesomely skilled ancient vampire lord.

This is fucking hilarious. You just claimed in the same breath that quantification went OUT the window, yet you go on to claim that its obvious Alucard is the far stronger being. And this was all based on.... opinions pulled out of your ass, apparently. Subjective bullshit is no replacement for fact, hypocrite.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, I know I was conservative with that. I wanted to show just a few of the things a weak 5th gen. can do, hense also showing why Anti's are considered to be gods by all except Caine.

What does being a god have to do anything with it? You were attempting to give an idea of their abilities, which I can applaud (unlike some of the Hellsing fans here....) and there's nothing wrong with being conservative. But I dont see how this proves anything "godlike", neccesarily. Godlike is a vague term that comes uncomfortably close IMHO to implying omnipotence (and a "no limits" fallacy.)

But if what you said about what Potence does is correct, of adding tons to lifting ability, and also if it is true that the strength scale increases sharply, my strangth estimate may be far too low. Though my speed calculation should be sound.

From what I can pull together for Potence, its substantially greater than normal strength (not surprising, since its at least partially telekinetic.) It allows for the lifting of cars, and stuff like that. I'd guess Potence maybe doubles, triples, quadruples the estimate dependin on the number of dots... maybe up to around an order of magnitude greater than comparable strength (IE level 1 Potence is 2x greater than comparable level 1 strength, lvel 10 potence is an order of magnitude or so greater than level 10 strength, etc.... Then again thats just a guess. By some of that, level 1 potence is in fact greater than level 5 strength!)

Then again, the ability to lift cars being a "low level" ability and "buses" a mid level ability suggests that both our estiimates for high end (IE methuselah and Ante strength) are probably still conservative.

[The Yosemite Bear]

This is starting to get ugly...

[SirNitram]

This is starting to get ugly...

When the going get ugly, the ugly get professional.

This thread is under watch.

[Captain Cyran]

Yes, I know I was conservative with that. I wanted to show just a few of the things a weak 5th gen. can do, hense also showing why Anti's are considered to be gods by all except Caine.

What does being a god have to do anything with it? You were attempting to give an idea of their abilities, which I can applaud (unlike some of the Hellsing fans here....) and there's nothing wrong with being conservative. But I dont see how this proves anything "godlike", neccesarily. Godlike is a vague term that comes uncomfortably close IMHO to implying omnipotence (and a "no limits" fallacy.)

Well, what I'd meant was that is that mortals and even other vampires consider the Anti's to be gods for a good reason. I wasn't implying that they were, just that there was an impression of it and that was why.

But if what you said about what Potence does is correct, of adding tons to lifting ability, and also if it is true that the strength scale increases sharply, my strangth estimate may be far too low. Though my speed calculation should be sound.

From what I can pull together for Potence, its substantially greater than normal strength (not surprising, since its at least partially telekinetic.) It allows for the lifting of cars, and stuff like that. I'd guess Potence maybe doubles, triples, quadruples the estimate dependin on the number of dots... maybe up to around an order of magnitude greater than comparable strength (IE level 1 Potence is 2x greater than comparable level 1 strength, lvel 10 potence is an order of magnitude or so greater than level 10 strength, etc.... Then again thats just a guess. By some of that, level 1 potence is in fact greater than level 5 strength!)

Then again, the ability to lift cars being a "low level" ability and "buses" a mid level ability suggests that both our estiimates for high end (IE methuselah and Ante strength) are probably still conservative.

Yeah, the calcs probably are very conservative, but it doesn't surprise me much. I'll get my hands on the V:tM book sometime from my brother and see if I can figure out exactly how to determine Potence levels.

[LadyTevar]

Player's Guide to the Sabbat specifically states that Heightened Senses, Gleam of the Red Eye, or other abilities that allow Vampires to see in darkness still get a -3 penalty to their rolls. (meaning: 3 less dice available for the Perception roll.) Therefore, it would stand to reason that Hellsing Vampires would also have difficulty seeing through the mystical darkness.

Okay, that works. Of course, it probably wouldn't affect the superhuman/sixth senses, though it would still do enough to hamper him.

I think that's what they meant... Heightened Senses and Gleam of the Red Eye are Vampiric Disclipines of other clans, thus making them 'superhuman/supernatural'. Heightened Senses is part of the Auspex disclipline, which at higher levels allows other abilities many people would term as 'sixth senses' such as clairvoence(sp), astral projection, and telepathy.
Obtenebration would only hinder these abilities, not stop them entirely. Instead of being totally blinded or totally able to see in the darkness, Obtenebration limits these other discliplines to what most humans might be able to see in a dark forest at night with no moon: vague shapes, approximate positions of objects.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think that's what they meant... Heightened Senses and Gleam of the Red Eye are Vampiric Disclipines of other clans, thus making them 'superhuman/supernatural'. Heightened Senses is part of the Auspex disclipline, which at higher levels allows other abilities many people would term as 'sixth senses' such as clairvoence(sp), astral projection, and telepathy.

How does darkness hamper precognition or other types of ESP type powers, exactly? Clairvoyance I can see because it is bascially "seeing things in other locations." possibly, but why would darkness hamper telepathy (unless telepathy requires line of sight - then it makes sense, but that isn't really *interfering* with the operation of the actual power, its just making it difficult to "target" a subject.)

From what you described it affects mostly optical-types of detection or sensing, possibly obscuring other senses (if it acts as some sort of physical barrier, it might also affect sound/touch/scent too)

Obtenebration would only hinder these abilities, not stop them entirely. Instead of being totally blinded or totally able to see in the darkness, Obtenebration limits these other discliplines to what most humans might be able to see in a dark forest at night with no moon: vague shapes, approximate positions of objects.

I still question whether it might affect precognition (IE "sixth sense")

[Connor MacLeod]

ITs not that its neccesarily impossible (we could figure its something "weird" in whatever makes up the shadowstuff that does this, or how it affects the physical/mental processes of the person under its influence, etc.) but it doesnt seem definite that it does either.

[Tatterdemalion]

From what you described it affects mostly optical-types of detection or sensing, possibly obscuring other senses (if it acts as some sort of physical barrier, it might also affect sound/touch/scent too)

I think what she meant was that it hampers all of the five senses regardless of how supernaturally amplified they are.

[LadyTevar]

From what you described it affects mostly optical-types of detection or sensing, possibly obscuring other senses (if it acts as some sort of physical barrier, it might also affect sound/touch/scent too)

I think what she meant was that it hampers all of the five senses regardless of how supernaturally amplified they are.

Here is how Obtenebration is described:

** Shadow Play
This vampire can evoke an area of inky black matter. The darkness obscures light and even sound: most opponents trapped within are completely blind, and even characters with Gleam of Red Eyes or Heightened Senses suffer penalties of three dice to their Pools. The darkness is normally static: the vampire may move it about (at walking speed), but must fully concentrate on such a task.

So, light and sound are obscured, so you can't fight by either. Abilities that let you improve your vision or any other sense are also limited, and those with low ability in them (3 dice or less) may just as well be blind.


Quote Tags Fixed

[Connor MacLeod]

Basically then, its kinda how I guessed. Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

Just curious, any luck on the strength/Potence stuff regarding lifting cars vs buses?

[LadyTevar]

Basically then, its kinda how I guessed. Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

Just curious, any luck on the strength/Potence stuff regarding lifting cars vs buses?

No.. Looks like my dice book for Vampire has vanished somewhere... prolly with an ex.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, I guess that based on what we *do* have, its sstill probable that Alucard will win..

[Stormbringer]

Connor, I admit I don't know the calculations. I'm not going to make a fool of myself trying to make it look like I do.

[Tatterdemalion]

Ah, so you are apparently deeply involved the psychologica creation of Alucard, you can tell us an exact numerical statistic relating his ability to resist mind-control, which was not used on him during the show, against a hypothetical and totally different body of Vampire lore and magic running on different sources of power and relying on details that don't, in fact, exist in Hellsing?

I may not be "fucking brilliant", but I am well able to see where a task outmatches me. Since you are so awesomely smart, please, pray tell me this magic number.

*Holds up Vampire:Revised*

Actually you no longer get to make a willpower roll against dominate. The only way you can avoid it is:

A) By being a lower generation than the dominator. (Since Alucard has no generation this doesn't really enter the equation.)

B)By avoiding looking the dominator in the eye. (This comes down more to battle technique than anything else, so it's a matter of if Alucard figures out how Dominate works or not.)
C) If the dominator fails/botches his roll. (Unlikely to happen at methuselah level.)

D) If the subject has the 'Iron-Will' merit, in which case he can spend a willpower point to shake one attempt off. (Whether you want to factor the quagmire of merits and flaws is up to Storm as the thread starter, but since their an optional part of the game I think it best to work under the assumption that Alucard has none.)

That's what the rulebook says anyway.

[Tatterdemalion]

Hmm... well it appears I can't read. Willpower does factor in to dominate it seems, as it determines the difficulty of the dominate roll. So I guess it's a matter of deciding Alucards willpower.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, I admit I don't know the calculations. I'm not going to make a fool of myself trying to make it look like I do.

you made a sort of effort I suppose (shooting the knives out of the air.. for example.) I'm mostly focused on Bandit because he and others like him always scream whenever the issue of proof comes up - they always scream how its "impossible to perform objective analysis consistently so we should be able to selectively apply it and use subjective reasoning arbitrarily.)

I already touched upon the calcs earlier (at least most of the relevant ones.) I'll redefine a few of them for the sake of argument:

1.) We know in the last couple of Eps that the SAS Freaks were capable of picking up and throwing a human male into a wall at a speed of roughly 2-4 meters per second (Scaled relative to the nearby cars) with a single hand. This translates (conservatively) to a momentum of about 150-300 kg*m/s worth of momentum for a 70-80 kg human minimum, approximately. Roughly speaking, this translates to 10-20x normal human strength for a single hand (compared to a human hand propelling a half kilogram knife at 15-20 m/s roughly) as a low end.

Comparatively, Seras was able to match one of them in strength, and her strength is nowhere near Alucard's.


2.) Speed example were derived from episode 6, from both Walter and Luke Valentine based on distance covered (depending on the example, between 2-4 meters, approximately in .2-.3 seconds) - yielding a rough acceleration between 20-80 gees. Again, neither is neccesarily Alucard's level, and we don't know conclusively that he *does* possess s uper speed, but we know he possesses TK more than capable of generating similar acceleration, so its not impossible.

3.) The "TK/strength example was derived from Alucard "stopping" Set's charge - which logically requires him using his total strength. IT takes approximately 2-3 seconds to halt the forward progress, and appears to move subjectively no more than 1-2 meters in a second before stopping (in any event, it owuld be less than 10-20 m/s given that Alucard was not knocked off of the top of the tower of London, and this assumes he was at the very edge of one side and traveled to the other.) Scaling of Set in prior examples sets his diameter at roughly 1/2 a meter to 1 meter wide, and a length around 60-80 meters. Assuming an organic density approximate to that of humans (and yes, I know he's a giant glowy snake, but Set is physical and quite flexible. Solidity is likely to be not much different than any other organic entity.) Sets the mass (assuming a cylinder.)

Basically, I *know* its possib le to do the analysis, despite whatever Mr Bandit may claim - he is simply looking for an excuse to avoid having to do any real work to back up his claim. And when he gets challenged on it, he gets pissy. Yet apparently its perfectly alright for him to totally dismiss MY efforts at objective analysis as either irrelevant or by using little more than his own subjective impressions! Which is precisely why I (or in his debates, Mike) get pissed about this.

[SirNitram]

A small fub on my part accidentally removed some of the legit analysis, it seems, when removing Smiling Bandit's whining. Many apologies.

[LadyTevar]

A small fub on my part accidentally removed some of the legit analysis, it seems, when removing Smiling Bandit's whining. Many apologies.

Tsk tsk tsk.

No boobies for you, then.

[Audrie_Dawn]

Just a quick side note on Alucard's gun...

Based on the markings on the slide and the visuals in the anime, Alucard's handgun is a single-stack, double-action semiautomatic chambered for the .454 Casull round. It is normally loaded with blessed anti-vampire rounds -- assuming these are otherwise equivalent to full power Casull rounds, we're looking at 360-grain bullets at a muzzle velocity of 1500 feet per second.

[Connor MacLeod]

Just a quick side note on Alucard's gun...

Based on the markings on the slide and the visuals in the anime, Alucard's handgun is a single-stack, double-action semiautomatic chambered for the .454 Casull round. It is normally loaded with blessed anti-vampire rounds -- assuming these are otherwise equivalent to full power Casull rounds, we're looking at 360-grain bullets at a muzzle velocity of 1500 feet per second.

Its actually a 10" "long slide" variant which can yield a higher muzzle velocity ... but in reality the Casull is only available in revolver chambering, not semiautomatic. And thats only powerful by "human" standards - Alucard's Jackal is far more powerful than any human gun.

In the Manga, the Casull also demonstrates an ability to hit targets up to a kilomter away. This is far beyond the ability of any nomral pistol.