The OotS Thread III

[Imperial Overlord]

The whole thing about direct damage spells being ineffective mainly applies to monsters. Against PCs and things built like PCs they can be substantially more effective.

And this is leaving aside the fact that we're talking about Order of the Stick Land, where direct damage is an effective option in general.

The effectiveness of all spells is situational. Direct damage has the advantage of stacking with what party's warrior types are doing and if they have high alpha output, can potentially take out enemies (especially squishy casters) before they can do much of anything. Save or suck enjoys their excellent rep because they can bypass high hitpoint totals to cripple or kill enemies instantly, if the target isn't immune to attack form. Battlefield control can be devastating by isolating part of the enemy group or crippling their ability to fight effectively, but are fairly feeble if the enemy can get around them easily. Given the wide array of powers and immunities possessed by a large number of D&D's more powerful critters, wizards are playing a guessing game where they try to have the spells that will work the best for the situations they are most likely to encounter.

[Irbis]

Given the wide array of powers and immunities possessed by a large number of D&D's more powerful critters, wizards are playing a guessing game where they try to have the spells that will work the best for the situations they are most likely to encounter.

Uh, even if most players picking Wizards weren't the types likely to memorize resistances of most common monsters, the player can always call GM for knowledge check roll, and given spellcasters high Int, the fact many knowledge skills are crucial for them, and lots of skill points, you can bet they win most of these and GM has to divulge data on even homebrewed monsters. So, not really guessing.

[Jub]

Given the wide array of powers and immunities possessed by a large number of D&D's more powerful critters, wizards are playing a guessing game where they try to have the spells that will work the best for the situations they are most likely to encounter.

Uh, even if most players picking Wizards weren't the types likely to memorize resistances of most common monsters, the player can always call GM for knowledge check roll, and given spellcasters high Int, the fact many knowledge skills are crucial for them, and lots of skill points, you can bet they win most of these and GM has to divulge data on even homebrewed monsters. So, not really guessing.

Yeah, your average wizard should be able to get 18 intelligence early in their adventuring career and if you started off as a human that's enough to max out the five knowledge skills you'll need to ID every kind of monster, and still take Spellcraft and Concentration at max ranks. At higher levels, a wizard should be walking around with 24-28 Int (depending on items and starting intelligence) so you should be able to make your checks pretty easy even if you didn't prepare some sort of spell to give you a boost to knowledge checks.

For example a 15th level wizard with 24 Int can auto pass checks of DC 25 or lower and has an 80% chance of beating DC 30. That's pretty much enough to get the goods about any monster. If you throw in some 50gp tomes about each area of knowledge you can bring DC 30 into reach 90% of the time and DC 35 65% of the time. You almost never need a check higher than 35 for anything until the game goes epic so the wizard is set even without trying to get a skill bonus through a magic item or spell.

[Imperial Overlord]

Given the wide array of powers and immunities possessed by a large number of D&D's more powerful critters, wizards are playing a guessing game where they try to have the spells that will work the best for the situations they are most likely to encounter.

Uh, even if most players picking Wizards weren't the types likely to memorize resistances of most common monsters, the player can always call GM for knowledge check roll, and given spellcasters high Int, the fact many knowledge skills are crucial for them, and lots of skill points, you can bet they win most of these and GM has to divulge data on even homebrewed monsters. So, not really guessing.

That would be true if you picked the spells you have available when you encounter the monster, but you don't. It's a guessing because wizards are picking the spells well before the fight, not because they aren't memorizing the monster manuals (forced memorization of the monster manuals is one of D&D's perennial problems). Sure, if you're going to attack a frost giant steading you can expect frost giants and winter wolves, but that doesn't mean that's all you're going to find. If you're going into a weird area of the Underdark you could encounter almost any damn thing. If you're relying on locking down areas with walls of force and black tentacles and your enemies can teleport and dimension door around the place, then things aren't going to go too well.

[Imperial Overlord]

Let me give an example from personal experience. I was running Nalifan (Drow Necromancer about level 8 at the time) and the party was pursuing drow slavers into the Underdark. Our spells were chosen accordingly. Instead we got jumped into a confined space by a vampire sorcerer and his minions who succeeded in mind controlling the fighter types. It went bad fast with Nalifan barely being able to escape and the rest of the party either dead or mind controlled.

I came back the next day with a different spell selection and soloed the entire group, including enslaved PCs.

[PainRack]

Let me give an example from personal experience. I was running Nalifan (Drow Necromancer about level 8 at the time) and the party was pursuing drow slavers into the Underdark. Our spells were chosen accordingly. Instead we got jumped into a confined space by a vampire sorcerer and his minions who succeeded in mind controlling the fighter types. It went bad fast with Nalifan barely being able to escape and the rest of the party either dead or mind controlled.

I came back the next day with a different spell selection and soloed the entire group, including enslaved PCs.

Sounds like a fun session:D

[Jub]

Given the wide array of powers and immunities possessed by a large number of D&D's more powerful critters, wizards are playing a guessing game where they try to have the spells that will work the best for the situations they are most likely to encounter.

Uh, even if most players picking Wizards weren't the types likely to memorize resistances of most common monsters, the player can always call GM for knowledge check roll, and given spellcasters high Int, the fact many knowledge skills are crucial for them, and lots of skill points, you can bet they win most of these and GM has to divulge data on even homebrewed monsters. So, not really guessing.

That would be true if you picked the spells you have available when you encounter the monster, but you don't. It's a guessing because wizards are picking the spells well before the fight, not because they aren't memorizing the monster manuals (forced memorization of the monster manuals is one of D&D's perennial problems). Sure, if you're going to attack a frost giant steading you can expect frost giants and winter wolves, but that doesn't mean that's all you're going to find. If you're going into a weird area of the Underdark you could encounter almost any damn thing. If you're relying on locking down areas with walls of force and black tentacles and your enemies can teleport and dimension door around the place, then things aren't going to go too well.

Why didn't the wizard scry first and get the cleric to commune to confirm things? After they cast those spells they could prepare the rest of their spells for the day, after all nothing says you must do all of your spells in a large block. Also where are the scrolls the wizard should be scribing and hoarding, and the wand he could have bartered for after the clerics spell returned an answer of woe? If your wizard gets caught out, he's most likely doing it wrong or the DM is really pushing the pace. In the later case, everybody else in the party is also bad off and the wizard still has a few scrolls tucked away for just such an occasion.

[Simon_Jester]

The point here is that if you don't play a campaign where the wizard automatically always knows what he's getting into and tailors his spell lineup to match, then there is, yes, a "guessing game." The wizard has to make an educated guess about probable opponents and what he can take to counter them, which typically means a mix of different spells.

I mean, if you're fighting a single monster with huge hit point totals, you want save-or-die/lose/suck spells, obviously. If you're fighting large groups, battlefield control is desirable (unless they're weak enough that you can just blot them out of existence en masse with area effects). If you're fighting another wizard, on the other hand, and it isn't a foregone conclusion that they have saves high enough to laugh off anything you can dish out... well hell, direct damage might actually work if they didn't ward against it.

If you know in advance which of these threats you face, you can pick an arsenal of the appropriate spells, carefully choose appropriate magic items, and laboriously craft the right scrolls and items for the job. But that is NOT some kind of default condition that we can assume will 'always' hold for rhetorical purposes. It's not the way the wizard fights, just the way the wizard fights most effectively and powerfully.

[Irbis]

If you know in advance which of these threats you face, you can pick an arsenal of the appropriate spells, carefully choose appropriate magic items, and laboriously craft the right scrolls and items for the job. But that is NOT some kind of default condition that we can assume will 'always' hold for rhetorical purposes. It's not the way the wizard fights, just the way the wizard fights most effectively and powerfully.

Yes it is. A Wizard using all splatbooks CAN and WILL be prepared for everything. Direct damage? Pick force/sonic spells, quite a lot of stuff has common fire/cold/acid/whatever immunities, barely anything is immune or even resistant to these two types of damage. Save or die/sucks? Pick ones targeting REF save, it's weak point of both spellcasting/fighting types, keep a few contingency* spells and scrolls versus dexterity monsters/npcs. Don't play a Wizard, or even specialist Wizard, play focused specialist for more daily spells than even a Sorcerer has. Etc, etc, there is reason why Wizards are commonly thought to be Tier 1 class on optimization forums while most of others are Tier 3-5. They really can handle so vast array of threats on standard loadout you can devote your scrolls to a few outliers.

* yeah, class that can instantly show middle finger to anyone who DOES manage to outsmart/beat it thanks to action prepared months ago, actions that fire without Wizard's attention or effort devoted to them can be really not fun for any realistic opposing force.

[Civil War Man]

Trying to play a Batman Wizard is a really dangerous game, since it can and will kill the fun of anyone else in the group that does not powergame to that level. Plus, when you munchkin as much as you suggest, that's when the DM starts laying down the Anti-Magic Zones or starts throwing in monsters with high Spell Resist, multiple immunities, and/or high saves in everything.

Wizard is Tier 1 because you can break the game with it, not because you should break the game with it.

[Napoleon the Clown]

You don't even have to make yourself game-breakingly powerful when you're a Batman Wizard. A Wizard can be useful in almost all situations. It takes more effort to make a Wizard useless in a fight. The martial characters? Just throw something with damage sponge HP out there and they're useless. Or give it a higher AC. Or give it such a large attack radius that melee characters can't get in.

Anti-magic stuff will nerf the martial characters, too. They rely strongly on magic items to boost their stats and add extra effects to their weapons. SR isn't as bad for the martial characters, but it still makes their lives harder. And SR doesn't even stop a Wizard. Shapechange is a fun spell. There's also those delicious Summon Monster spells. The only thing that stops the Wizard completely is an anti-magic field, and that assumes the Wizard decides to camp in it. Summoning spells work outside the AMF, and I don't recall anything about summons going away if they enter an AMF. For that matter, I don't know of anything saying that AMFs make you revert to your original form if you've used a spell that changes your physical form. So the Wizard just needs to find a way to get off something that will turn them into a creature with a strength in the 40s and 15' or more reach and suddenly the martial types are still largely useless.

Evoker isn't the way you play an effective Wizard. Hell, relying on directly affecting your opponent isn't a good idea. Having ways to do HP damage? Good. Having save or dies? Good. Having ways to turn yourself into something scary? Very good. Having ways to summon your own tanks? Very good. Having all of these? Best. And a Wizard who has access to all of this isn't powergaming. They aren't being a munchkin. Powergaming would be doing stuff so that your save DCs are impossible to beat, or cranking up your caster level check to the point where SR 35 doesn't scare you. You can play a Wizard like I describe without making everyone else feel useless.

Example: Summon a creature to set up flank for the Rogue. Suddenly, the Rogue is getting easier sneak attacks. They will love you for this. Take steps to make the Fighter/Barbarian/whatever more able to crank up their power attack. They will love you for this. Craft your friends magic items that will help them do their thing more effectively. They will love you for this. Turn yourself into something that will let you keep out of harm's way, or can help back up your buddies. You can turn yourself into the teammate that uses your vast array of powers to make everyone else more able to feel like they're badass.

Same concept applies to Clerics, except you've also got stuff to buff your friends directly. Druids, too. Druids can use their animal friends to help their melee friends able to hit easier. Their animal companion can serve as a flank-buddy and as a means to get aggro off someone who's getting beat up enough they need to pull back for a second. Wildshape can be used to wade into melee and help set up flanks and to be able to use buffs on their friends, when needed. The tier 1 classes can make everyone else irrelevant, or they can play a role where they help bring down the baddy by hitting it directly and, more importantly, make their buddies more effective through directly buffing their buddies or through debuffing the enemies.

A Batman Wizard, played in a way that will help others also shine, is going to make everyone have a better time of things. Plan things out with your teammates and you can build a party that is equipped to take on stuff above CR and come out as if the encounter was at or below CR. A good DM will look at a party like this and make sure they challenge their tactics, yes. But if the Batman Wizard isn't running around trying to be God then they're less likely to be specifically targeted. Batman Wizards are bad when they try and do it all themselves, and that's the kind that would annoy me as a DM. If they're playing so that they're making the entire team more effective, though, I'm going to approve. And then promptly throw more challenging encounters at them. Batman Wizards can help the rest of the team become more effective, reducing the need to minmax for everyone. Batman Wizard is a problem if you're a glory-hog. If you're a team player, everyone will be made more effective because of you.

[Forgothrax]

It's easy enough to build a Mailman Sorc or something similar that can one-shot enemies, No SR, No Save. Direct damage does have significant applications, and it's always relevant.

That said, the "best" way I've seen to play the Tier 1 casting classes to their full potential is like what Napoleon suggested. Help the rest of the party shine; don't do it yourself. I still remember a game my group talked about... the player played a Batman Wizard with emphasis on buffing the party with a side of battlefield control and lots of utility. Didn't really do much on his own. The DM had them face down the BBEG in what was supposed to be an encounter they would narrowly escape... only for the wizard to panic and chuck some of the spells and tactics he had kept for an emergency... and took down the villain in a single round.

[Imperial Overlord]

Why didn't the wizard scry first and get the cleric to commune to confirm things?

Scry blocking is very common in just about every campaign I've played in and I know I'm not alone in that. It's pervasive in Faerun's Underdark, for example.

After they cast those spells they could prepare the rest of their spells for the day, after all nothing says you must do all of your spells in a large block. Also where are the scrolls the wizard should be scribing and hoarding, and the wand he could have bartered for after the clerics spell returned an answer of woe? If your wizard gets caught out, he's most likely doing it wrong or the DM is really pushing the pace. In the later case, everybody else in the party is also bad off and the wizard still has a few scrolls tucked away for just such an occasion.

I've never played in a world where resource crunch wasn't an issue. My spell selection has always been limited. Magic items have always been limited to down right rare and many of them have been sub-optimal. Timing issues are common, at least half the campaigns I've been in have featured some kind of ticking clock of varying severity. Crafting time is precious and item venders limited and might not have what you're looking for anyway. Enemy wizards are awesome, because you might be able to get your hands on their spellbook and add a few more spells to the arsenal as well as one or two useful magic goodies.

So yes, wizards are awesome if no one tries to stop their tricks and they have plenty of time and resources. The game is, however, not always in easy mode.

[Grumman]

Summoning spells work outside the AMF, and I don't recall anything about summons going away if they enter an AMF. For that matter, I don't know of anything saying that AMFs make you revert to your original form if you've used a spell that changes your physical form.

You're incorrect on both counts. Just read the entry for Antimagic Field:

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Basically, any magical effect that is not of instantaneous duration reverts back to normal as soon as the antimagic field comes into play. Baleful Polymorph, for example, is of "permanent" duration, which means that it is only the magic of the spell keeping the victim in their new form. Of course, many spells will have both types of effect - a wall of fire would be suppressed but the injuries caused by said wall would not.

[Jub]

Why didn't the wizard scry first and get the cleric to commune to confirm things?

Scry blocking is very common in just about every campaign I've played in and I know I'm not alone in that. It's pervasive in Faerun's Underdark, for example.

Then send in your familiar, invisible of course, and have him take a look for you. You get to share spells with him easy enough and your link has ridiculous range. Or just ask the party cleric to ask his god what you might face along your travels.

After they cast those spells they could prepare the rest of their spells for the day, after all nothing says you must do all of your spells in a large block. Also where are the scrolls the wizard should be scribing and hoarding, and the wand he could have bartered for after the clerics spell returned an answer of woe? If your wizard gets caught out, he's most likely doing it wrong or the DM is really pushing the pace. In the later case, everybody else in the party is also bad off and the wizard still has a few scrolls tucked away for just such an occasion.

I've never played in a world where resource crunch wasn't an issue. My spell selection has always been limited. Magic items have always been limited to down right rare and many of them have been sub-optimal. Timing issues are common, at least half the campaigns I've been in have featured some kind of ticking clock of varying severity. Crafting time is precious and item venders limited and might not have what you're looking for anyway. Enemy wizards are awesome, because you might be able to get your hands on their spellbook and add a few more spells to the arsenal as well as one or two useful magic goodies.

So yes, wizards are awesome if no one tries to stop their tricks and they have plenty of time and resources. The game is, however, not always in easy mode.

Make a homunculus, start the scroll and let him finish, you can get a little workshop going in a bag of holding. DM doesn't want to give you such a bag, take the feat and make your own. Cheap magic items take a day or two at most and if you make yourself tiny you can work on it safely tucked into somebody's pocket or a saddle bag. Suddenly travel time becomes crafting time and your crafting station fits into a large pocket. You did take a spell to make items tiny so you can set up mundane walls around your camp when you sleep at night or so you can have a pocket ballista right? Even AMF isn't an issue if you conjure acid and toss that in or make a wall of iron and shove it over that 10ft. wide pit the field is covering.

If you're having resource issues as a full caster, you're likely not playing like you have a retardedly high intelligence score. If your DM complains that you're breaking the game look at him and ask, 'Isn't breaking reality what wizards went to school to do?'

[Civil War Man]

If your DM complains that you're breaking the game look at him and ask, 'Isn't breaking reality what wizards went to school to do?'

With that kind of response, the DM has every right to arbitrarily kill off the wizard.

Wizard is Tier 1 because you can break the game with it, not because you should break the game with it.

[Imperial Overlord]

Then send in your familiar, invisible of course, and have him take a look for you. You get to share spells with him easy enough and your link has ridiculous range. Or just ask the party cleric to ask his god what you might face along your travels.

That's an excellent way to lose a familiar and the cleric isn't necessarily going to get a much better answer. See invisible is fucking pervasive in D&D. If your GM has scry blocking up, why would you believe your familiar will have an easy time of it or that the cleric will get an answer that isn't vague or cryptic? And that's good. The rangers and thieves should have something to do.

Make a homunculus, start the scroll and let him finish, you can get a little workshop going in a bag of holding. DM doesn't want to give you such a bag, take the feat and make your own. Cheap magic items take a day or two at most and if you make yourself tiny you can work on it safely tucked into somebody's pocket or a saddle bag. Suddenly travel time becomes crafting time and your crafting station fits into a large pocket. You did take a spell to make items tiny so you can set up mundane walls around your camp when you sleep at night or so you can have a pocket ballista right? Even AMF isn't an issue if you conjure acid and toss that in or make a wall of iron and shove it over that 10ft. wide pit the field is covering.

If you're having resource issues as a full caster, you're likely not playing like you have a retardedly high intelligence score. If your DM complains that you're breaking the game look at him and ask, 'Isn't breaking reality what wizards went to school to do?'

A bag of holding as a workshop? Your GM is insanely pervasive and that is also why you think that resources are easy to get a hold of. They can be, if your GM allows it. But if he allowed that and allowed scrying always to come up with your answers and your familiar to scout with little danger, then the game is in easy mode.

[Jub]

Then send in your familiar, invisible of course, and have him take a look for you. You get to share spells with him easy enough and your link has ridiculous range. Or just ask the party cleric to ask his god what you might face along your travels.

That's an excellent way to lose a familiar and the cleric isn't necessarily going to get a much better answer. See invisible is fucking pervasive in D&D. If your GM has scry blocking up, why would you believe your familiar will have an easy time of it or that the cleric will get an answer that isn't vague or cryptic? And that's good. The rangers and thieves should have something to do.

Then just buff the familiars hide check into the stratosphere instead, that tends to work. With some basic buffs it shouldn't be hard to get a tiny familiar well above the kind of spot check most monsters can make even with a 20. It'll usually be better than the rogue just due to being smaller and the wizard will get feedback from his familiar even if the familiar is spotted and killed. Toss on spider climb and suddenly the enemy has to be looking up to spot the familiar and not just get their base spot value and bam, recon over.

Make a homunculus, start the scroll and let him finish, you can get a little workshop going in a bag of holding. DM doesn't want to give you such a bag, take the feat and make your own. Cheap magic items take a day or two at most and if you make yourself tiny you can work on it safely tucked into somebody's pocket or a saddle bag. Suddenly travel time becomes crafting time and your crafting station fits into a large pocket. You did take a spell to make items tiny so you can set up mundane walls around your camp when you sleep at night or so you can have a pocket ballista right? Even AMF isn't an issue if you conjure acid and toss that in or make a wall of iron and shove it over that 10ft. wide pit the field is covering.

If you're having resource issues as a full caster, you're likely not playing like you have a retardedly high intelligence score. If your DM complains that you're breaking the game look at him and ask, 'Isn't breaking reality what wizards went to school to do?'

A bag of holding as a workshop? Your GM is insanely pervasive and that is also why you think that resources are easy to get a hold of. They can be, if your GM allows it. But if he allowed that and allowed scrying always to come up with your answers and your familiar to scout with little danger, then the game is in easy mode.

Why not a bag of holding workshop? The rules for a homunculus that can finish items exists in Ebberon's setting book, the workers themselves don't breath and you can fit tons of them into a bag of holding even without resorting to shrinking them first. If the DM thinks that sounds cheesy just shrink the wizard and have him do a one man version in somebodies pocket while they walk. Then all that normally wasted travel time suddenly isn't and your wizard has all the scrolls he'll ever need. All the spells needed to pull this version off exist in the PHB.

The pocket workshop spell and race requirements:

-A small sized caster
-Reduce person
-Shrink item

That's all SRD stuff, no cheesy splat books required.

That means you can make two 4th level scrolls at CL 10 per day or a heap of lower level stuff for utility freeing you up to spend each day loading for bear with your spell slots. Or, if say a journey takes a few days, you could easily craft a few grand worth of stuff. Don't have the right crafting skill? Fabricate or a spell that grants a massive skill bonus ought to do the trick. Need a divine spell, that's what the cleric who you shrink to help you is for.

At higher levels you can solve the issue by simply making and/or finding a demiplane where times runs slow enough next to that of plane your problem is on to basically be stopped. Now you have all the time in the world to make that critical item or talk strategy.

Really if the Wizard is lacking for anything, it's because the player isn't using his resources well enough or the DM really hates when players take an option he didn't plan for. With your spells you can make pretty much anything you need and have it on hand and ready to go when you need it. When you play a Wizard think like somebody with godlike intellect and the ability to rend reality asunder and go from there.

With that kind of response, the DM has every right to arbitrarily kill off the wizard.

Why? The Wizard, in universe, is a genius with the ability to alter reality after ~6 seconds of mumbo jumbo and hand movements, mere mortals with a bit of time of their hands have created a few ways to use these spells, that have existed in the D&D universe for many many years, to get broken effects. Would a genius with even more experience with the spells be expected to do any less?

Doing the optimal thing isn't min-maxing, that's playing a genius properly.

[Jub]

Also, you keep making it seem like a Wizard might not have access to stuff as low cost as scrolls and wands. It's not like I'm talking about splatbook items or metamagic rods here, I'm talking about utility scrolls and wands. If the wizard is starved for items under 2,000gp how is the fighter keeping pace? Or does your GM just like to bone Wizards specifically by not allowing them access to stuff they need?

EDIT: The bit about the demiplane in the above post should say faster instead of slower.

[Civil War Man]

With that kind of response, the DM has every right to arbitrarily kill off the wizard.

Why? The Wizard, in universe, is a genius with the ability to alter reality after ~6 seconds of mumbo jumbo and hand movements, mere mortals with a bit of time of their hands have created a few ways to use these spells, that have existed in the D&D universe for many many years, to get broken effects. Would a genius with even more experience with the spells be expected to do any less?

Doing the optimal thing isn't min-maxing, that's playing a genius properly.

Because if the DM tells you you are breaking their game, it is because your powergaming is actively impeding their and the other players' ability to enjoy the game, and your response to that is basically "Fuck you I'll do what I want."

The level of powergaming you advocate is fine if everyone in the group is doing it, but if the rest of your party is, say, a Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, and unoptimized healbot Cleric, it's common courtesy to tone it down a bit.

[Simon_Jester]

If you know in advance which of these threats you face, you can pick an arsenal of the appropriate spells, carefully choose appropriate magic items, and laboriously craft the right scrolls and items for the job. But that is NOT some kind of default condition that we can assume will 'always' hold for rhetorical purposes. It's not the way the wizard fights, just the way the wizard fights most effectively and powerfully.

Yes it is. A Wizard using all splatbooks CAN and WILL be prepared for everything. Direct damage? Pick force/sonic spells,... Save or die/sucks? Pick ones targeting REF save... Don't play a Wizard, or even specialist Wizard, play focused specialist for more daily spells than even a Sorcerer has. Etc, etc... They really can handle so vast array of threats on standard loadout you can devote your scrolls to a few outliers.

I am endlessly amazed by how badly the build-optimizers have missed the point of the game when they obsess over how STUPIDLY EASY RAARGH it is to turn an arcane spellcaster into an enemy-crushing demigod.

Yes, I am quite sure, if you carefully select whichever spells from the rulebook are most uniquely suited to acting as Kryptonite against your most probable opponents, and you carefully comb the splatbooks for wonky alternative character classes that make you "more wizard than wizards," you can come up with a combination of tricks that makes you an enemy-crushing demigod.

So what?

Seriously, so what? Build optimization isn't the point of Order of the Stick, isn't the point of virtually any imaginable campaign worth playing, and for that matter isn't the point of the game itself. You don't "win" at D&D by building an enemy-crushing demigod; you win by collaborative storytelling. Complaining because V (or V's opponents) have poorly optimized builds is just you sitting in the corner showing off how badly you've missed the point of the artwork you're criticizing.


Similar complaints apply to Jub, whose argument basically boils down to "officially, in theory, I can carry around a midget in a sack who does literally nothing but make magic scrolls for me, so I have an unlimited supply of scrolls!"

Who the hell would want to play a game on those terms? Does Jub actually think that this should be the norm in a Dungeons and Dragons game? That all stories should reduce to "LOL wizard gibs you with spells from his sack-midget's scrolls!"

If not, what's the point?

[Ahriman238]

Pretty much what simon says. Wizards, especially towards the beginning of the game need their team to handle any threat they don't have a spell prepared for. As the game progresses, the casters need to learn to work with their team to be more than a Wizard and his meat shields. Wizards bring options to the table, spells that help you get around easier, battlefield control, communication, buffs. Direct damage is the least of what they can do, a capability they share with everyone else.

Sure, you can build a Wizard that can smite everything that looks at him wrong, in much the same way you "can" (assuming the world's most permissive DM) play Pun-pun. But the game will suck for both you and everyone playing with you if it's all you. Wizards are supposed to be wise men, creative and intelligent in their use of magic, and there's no creativity in a Fireball.

[Civil War Man]

Seriously, so what? Build optimization isn't the point of Order of the Stick, isn't the point of virtually any imaginable campaign worth playing, and for that matter isn't the point of the game itself. You don't "win" at D&D by building an enemy-crushing demigod; you win by collaborative storytelling. Complaining because V (or V's opponents) have poorly optimized builds is just you sitting in the corner showing off how badly you've missed the point of the artwork you're criticizing.

A lot of people forget that OOTS is hardly a story about character optimization. The party started out as a high Int single-class Fighter, a low Int Bard, a healbot Cleric, an archer Rogue, an Evoker Wizard with Conjuration as their banned school, and a low Wisdom Ranger, and most of the development they've gone through has not be expressible via game mechanics.

[Irbis]

Sure, you can build a Wizard that can smite everything that looks at him wrong, in much the same way you "can" (assuming the world's most permissive DM) play Pun-pun. But the game will suck for both you and everyone playing with you if it's all you. Wizards are supposed to be wise men, creative and intelligent in their use of magic, and there's no creativity in a Fireball.

Wise men, yes. Incredibly wise, even. Let me ask you a question - you are wise, frail man that spent decades learning art of spellcasting, poring over old sorcerers tomes and grimoires, researching arcane beasts for spell components and inherent magic.

Why, in the name of Great Ctulhu, such person cannot do what takes roleplayers on Earth an hour in afternoon and do prepare for worst seeing you won't always have a buddy handy you can buff?

If you have one, great, but saying creative and intelligent person will gimp himself for no apparent purpose just because it offends some people that care more about 'story' than realism? If this wizard was a real person, being prepared to smite anything (and not become utterly useless without meatshield or two around) would be his second nature. Wizards are like that in say, Pratchett's works, and I for one love that portrayal.

Also, on a side note, wizards get incredibly potent save-or-dies on first level, too, they can solo monsters on almost all levels of play. Yes, party is very useful, but there is nothing using ranged weapons or coup de grace rules for even weakest spellcaster won't solve.

Seriously, so what? Build optimization isn't the point of Order of the Stick, isn't the point of virtually any imaginable campaign worth playing, and for that matter isn't the point of the game itself. You don't "win" at D&D by building an enemy-crushing demigod; you win by collaborative storytelling. Complaining because V (or V's opponents) have poorly optimized builds is just you sitting in the corner showing off how badly you've missed the point of the artwork you're criticizing.

I suggest investing some skill points into 'reading' category as all I criticized was inane, offhand comment that wizards are always reduced to guessing and are worthless without a party. No, they are not, which was proved repeatedly. My comment had literally nothing to do with OotS, it was about broad stroke, false statements.

Or is your wizard illiterate in order to give party barbarian one more occasion to shine?

Who the hell would want to play a game on those terms?

Sure, claim it's boring or that you wouldn't play this way. However, any claim that it can't be done, that real person wouldn't behave like this, or any other reply in the vein "no because I am offended by this" is plainly false.

Also, you know, people do play superpowered campaigns, and (what a shock!) these can be fun for everyone involved, provided GM is competent and not the "no because no" kind.

[Irbis]

Because if the DM tells you you are breaking their game, it is because your powergaming is actively impeding their and the other players' ability to enjoy the game, and your response to that is basically "Fuck you I'll do what I want."

Then said GM is clearly incompetent or the player behaving maliciously because proper time to ensure everyone is on the same page is BEFORE the game. Not during. Once machine starts running, I find stopping it kills fun for everyone and it's better to roll with it appropriately adjusting things.

The level of powergaming you advocate is fine if everyone in the group is doing it, but if the rest of your party is, say, a Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, and unoptimized healbot Cleric, it's common courtesy to tone it down a bit.

I will say something that will shock the 'YOU MISS THE POINT' guys - if your party is tier 4-6, then sorry, wizard is horrible choice to play. The class is just way too powerful and can be turned into tier 1 in a moment's notice barring the player being idiot who assigned Int 8 or something. Had tier 1 been unintended, all the capabilities wouldn't be in RPG book, but sadly, they are and ignoring it is being three Chinese monkeys at once.

Want to play something on the level of weak party? You don't like demigods? Pick warmage, shadowbinder, truenamer, beguiller or any other spellcasting class tooled more toward functioning in party, you will have more fun with simpler, but deeper options, as will have your low powered party/GM. But anyone showing righteous rage YOUMISSTHEPOINT! is still wrong, sorry.

Also, I love how all the 'OotS is not optimizing' crowd ignore the fact that V and Durkon were always by far most powerful members without even trying and last 20 strips were basically Roy hugging the cover while spellcasters were doing all the legwork. Someone said something about missing points?