Elminster VS Borys of Ebe.

[khursed]

Who would win if the dragon of Athas, Borys of Ebe butcher of dwarf, fought the sage of shadowdale, Elminster Aumar.

Borys of Ebe 30th level dragon, so 30th level psioniscist, 30th level wizard, champion of Rajaat.

Elminster Aumar, 26-36th level wizard, chosen of Mystra.

Who is your money on?

[mr friendly guy]

So are you saying Borys is a level 90 character?

[Imperial Overlord]

So are you saying Borys is a level 90 character?

No. Multiclassing worked differently in 2nd edition. The closest 3x equivalent would be a caster/psionicist with epic spellcasting and psionic abilities who has taken a powerful epic prestige class and been transformed permanently into the physical form of a powerful dragon.

As for who would win, where is this fight taking place? On Athas Borys's power is second only to Rajaat's, he can call upon the aid of the sorcerer-kings, and there is no divine aid. The Realms is a different matter entirely.

[khursed]

I'd have to say the fight must take place on neutral ground, where their allies and friends can't help either.

I'd put my money on Boris of Ebe, if it's a fair fight, otherwise, say Ed Greenwood writes it, bye bye Boris.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'd have to say the fight must take place on neutral ground, where their allies and friends can't help either.

I'd put my money on Boris of Ebe, if it's a fair fight, otherwise, say Ed Greenwood writes it, bye bye Boris.

Neutral ground is a little vague when one of the characters has magic that is powered by plundering the surrounding ecosystem.

[Solauren]

I should probably point something out

There IS a Dragon of Tyr prestige class. It was published in Dragon Magazine 339 (Please, no 'Dragon/Dungeon are not canon arguements. All 3.X Dark Sun stuff was in Dragon/Dungeon, so it's what we have). Specifically, the "Athasian Dragon" Prestige class

They had to be able to cast 9th level spells, and 6th level psionics. This would mean a Wizard 17/Psion 11 (26th level). It's also an Epic class, so even as Cerebramancer, you'd dealing with a 21st level character before they take the class. 5 levels is not going to make a huge difference.

Taking all 10 levels in Athasian Dragon gave you 7 more 'effective' levels of Wizard and Psion, making the resulting Dragon a Wizard 24/Psion 18, at Level 31 - 36 (depending on class make-up). This also means they have Spell Resistance of 42 - 47 (see below)

If anyone is interested, I could whip up 2 version of a 10th level Athasian Dragon for comparison to Elminsters official stats. (1 advancement would be via Cerebramancer, the other via Wizard/Psion mulit-classing).

[mr friendly guy]

So Borys under modern rules is a level 31-36 character? Elminster in 3E was level 35 was he, but IIRC only 29 of those were in a magic user class. I have no idea how to translate that into 4E.

Now keeping in mind that I haven't played for ages, but I do love reading fluff and stats, wouldn't Borys be more powerful?

He has a higher overall level. Psionic powers are supposedly overpowered. I assume he has more hitpoints given that the levels of dragon will give him more hit die, and he must have a high constitution score. Now Elminster has a high constitution score as well given his bonuses as a chosen of mystra.

Actually Solauren, I am interested in a comparison score between dragons and Elminster.

[Imperial Overlord]

Borys will have a crazy high constitution score. He's also quite martially skilled and can make good use of his draconic features (tail, huge claws, maw of doom, etcetera) in a fight.

[Solauren]

Okay, so I loaded up my copy of the original boxed set for Dark Sun, and found the description of the Dragon of Tyr.

I was after his Psionic and Magical abilities only. Obviously his physical stats will be determined by the Athasian Dragon prestige class in the 3.5 conversion. He is listed as having 35 Hit Dice.

He was originally a level 25 Psionist (Psion). His wizard level is not stated specifically, but it's at least 19th level (he has two wizard spells of 9th level ready)

However, a A Cross reference of Dragon Kings (which has the Dragon of Tyr class in it) would indicate that a 10th level Athasian Dragon
Gained an average of 3 4 sided hit dice per level (start at 30, go to 61 HD at full Dragon of Tyr)
Gained a level of wizard per Dragon of Tyr level, making them 30th level wizards.
Thaco was -3 (equal to a 23rd level fighter), it's claws did 2d10+15, Bite did 4d12, Breath Weapon was a 100' cone of superheated can (25d12 damage), and it's tail did 5d10, and ther was an 80% Chance that any spell used against it would fail.

They also continued full wizard advancement, meaning the Dragon of Tyr was also a 30th level wizard.
Please note, the original Dragon of Tyr class did NOT advance psionic ability, just wizard.

So, pre conversion, the original Dragon of Tyr is a bloody kiling machine.

It was a 30th level wizard, with access to 10th level Dark Sun Spells (let me put it this way; you think Epic magic is broken????), and the powers of a 25th level Psion.

It's class configuration would have to be, in 2e, to meet these parameters of the Dragon of Tyr Monster entry, and the Dragon of Tyr Class

Wizard 20, Psion 25, Dragon of Tyr 10.
Or a 55th level character.

The FInal result for the Dragon of Tyr should be a Wizard 30, Psion 25 or so.

So, with that in mind, here are the entry requirements for the 3.5 Athasian Dragon prestige class. I removed the special requirements, as well as the Race/ALignment requirements, as the original character was a evil human.

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks. (Minimum Level 21)
Feats: Epic Spellcasting (Spellcraft 24 ranks), Great Fortitude, any two metamagic feats, and any two metapsionic feats.
Spells: Must be able to cast 9th-level arcane spells and manifest 6th-level psionic powers.

So, to quickest plot out to this requirements would be the Cerebremancer Prestige Class from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (Minimum of Wizard 3/Psion 3 to take it)

So.....
Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10 = Wizard 13/Psion 13 (in powers)
This meats the Psionic Manifesting Requirements, but not the Spell casting requirements.
4 more levels are needed. Let's put those in wizard, as the Dragon of Tyr is a more powerful wizard then psion.

Wizard 7/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10 = Wizard 17/Psion 13

So, at 20th level, we meet most of the requirements. However, you need to be 21st level to take the Epic SPellcasting.
so, add a level of wizard

Wizard 8/Psion 3/Cerebramancer 10 = Wizard 18/Psion 13 <- Interesting, that's the level difference between the Dragon of Tyrs spellcasting and psionics in 2e.

so, assuming optimum feat choice, here is our starting Dragon of Tyr.

So, at minimum, the level configuration for the Dragon of Tyr should be
Wizard 8/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/AThasian Dragon 10.

This would make the effective caster levels for the Dragon of Tyr
Wizard = 8 (Wizard) + 10 (Cerebremancer) + 5 (Athasian Dragon) = 23
Psion = 3 (Psion) + 10 (Cerebremancer) + 5 (Athasian Dragon) = 18

To match the spellcasting and manifesting power it showed in 2E, our Dragon of Tyr needs 7 more levels of Wizard and Psionic abilities. That's either
7 more levels of Cerebremancer,
or 7 more levels of wizard, 7 more levels of psion, or
2 more levels of wizard, 2 more levels of psion, and 5 levels of archmage and archpsion

I will stat out 4 version of the dragon to meet these parameters
Version 1 - 'minimum to be a full AThasian Dragon'
Wizard 8/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Athasian Dragon 10 (Level 31)

Version 2 - Matches the original power of the Dragon of Tyr.
2a - Wizard 8/Psion 3/Cereberamancer 17/Athasian Dragon 10 - Level 38
2b - Wizard 15/Psion 10/Cereberamancer 10/Athasian Dragon 10 (WIzard 30, Psion 25) - Level 45.
2c - Wizard 10/Psion 5/Cereberamancer 10/Archmage 5/Archpsion 5/Athasian Dragon 10 - Level 45

And Since the first spellcasters were described as Sorcerers...
Version 3 - Level match to the original Dragon of Tyr (for the hell of it)
Sorcerer 10/ Wizard 5/Psion 10/Cereberamancer 10/Ultimate Magus 10/Athasian Dragon 10 (Sorcerer 17, WIzard 30, Psion 25) = Level 55.

If everyone agrees with these configurations, I'll start the stat up and post them as I finish.

Oh, for a comparison, here's the 3.5 edition stats summary for Elminster from the Epic Level Handbook

Male Human (Chosen of Mystra) Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5: CR 39.
AC 31, touch 19, flat-footed 27; Atk +25/+20/+15 melee (1d8+6/19–20, +5 thundering longsword) or +23/+18/+13 ranged touch (by spell); SA Sneak attack +1d6, turn undead 6/day; SQ Arcane fire, arcane reach, mastery of counterspelling, mastery of elements, spell power +4, Chosen immunities, Chosen spell-like abilities, detect magic, enhanced Constitution, enhanced Intelligence, evasion, silver fire, SR 21; AL CG; SV Fort +29, Ref +25, Will +29; Str 13, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 27, Wis 18, Cha 17. Height 6 ft. 2 in.

Solauren's note: SInce we are looking for 'as close to original' as possible, I'd also put the Phrenic Template on him, but that's me. In Pre-3e, he had some psionic ability. I'd also put the Spellfire Weilder Feat on him, as he was described as having a limited ability with it. No levels in a Psionic or Spellfire Class, however.

For a quick comparison, before I even stat thinks up...
a Dragon of Tyr has a Spell Resistance (and Power Resistance) of 11 + Character level. Even the weakest versions Sepll Resistance would be to much for Elminster to deal with, and that's before the Dragon get's in close and rips him apart.

[Imperial Overlord]

The sorcerer levels on Borys are wrong. He wasn't one of Athas's first casters. He also needs fighter levels.

[Solauren]

The sorcerer levels on Borys are wrong. He wasn't one of Athas's first casters. He also needs fighter levels.

Ultimate Arcanus adds to Sorcerer levels. How many additional levels would you suggest?
And considering the end result level, he's going to have insane martial skills even without fighter levels.

[Imperial Overlord]

The sorcerer levels on Borys are wrong. He wasn't one of Athas's first casters. He also needs fighter levels.

Ultimate Arcanus adds to Sorcerer levels. How many additional levels would you suggest?
And considering the end result level, he's going to have insane martial skills even without fighter levels.

I don't recall Ultimate Arcanus, but the Sorcerer class shouldn't be associated with Athas at all. It didn't exist when the world was being developed and Psionics fills the sorcerer niche anyway. Arcane magic breaks down into Preserving and Defiling, both based on the Wizard class. Retrofiting a 3.0/3.5 class onto a character who was never intended to have that class on a world that was never intended to have that class is a poor choice. The word "sorcerer" is tossed around a lot on Athas, but it just means Arcane spellcaster. Rajaat the First Sorcerer didn't have intrinsic magical abilities, instead discovering how to tap into the life of Athas through painstaking research and experimentation.

Borys of Elbe preferred to do his killing with a sword, most famously the Scourge of Rajaat. When the Champions turned on Rajaat he was one of the three most physically capable who attacked him with weapons why the rest hit the Warbringer with magic and psionics. The other two were Draegoth who split Rajaat's head with a two handed maul and Hammanu, the Lion of Urik who spent his adolescence and early adulthood as a soldier before being transformed into a nascent Dragon by Rajaat's magic. Borys should have at least high single digit fighter levels.

[Solauren]

So. drop the Sorcerer stuff and replace it with Fighter? Not an issue.

(Haven't started the stating yet anyway. I have a 20+ wizard (all 20th+ level) fight to prepare for this weekends adventure.)

[Aharon]

The numbers are nearly unimportant at those levels. If both characters are played to their full potential, they are equals because both have sufficient access to 9th level spells (usual Genesis + Astral Projection Cheese makes both of them as good as invincible).

If they aren't played to full potential, we get whatever result we favor.

You could also build Borys with less levels:
Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 6/Athasian Dragon 10 would be sufficient. (Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane for early entry, Mind Mage is found in Dragon Magazine 313).

[Imperial Overlord]

The numbers are nearly unimportant at those levels. If both characters are played to their full potential, they are equals because both have sufficient access to 9th level spells (usual Genesis + Astral Projection Cheese makes both of them as good as invincible).

That doesn't work on Athas.

[Aharon]

Why not? I thought they just can't access the Great Wheel, but are still a part of it? If it indeed doesn't, Elminster seems to have the advantage - unless the scenario includes a banlist for high-op tactics not used in WotC/Author-material.

[Imperial Overlord]

Why not? I thought they just can't access the Great Wheel, but are still a part of it? If it indeed doesn't, Elminster seems to have the advantage - unless the scenario includes a banlist for high-op tactics not used in WotC/Author-material.

They're isolated from most of the planes, particularly the Astral and Outer Planes. They have their own plane of the dead, The Grey. You can't pull "go to the Astral Plane and project to Athas" tactics.

[Blayne]

A optimized level 20 wizard can easily take out the Elminster as stated in the Epic Handbook, especially if you don't randomize his immunities so you can work around them.

If you get to customize your character however you want you win even if your dropped onto an island within 500 feet of him and have to roll initiative because you will always go first and if you can go first you teleport away and start casting protections on yourself, anti scrying protections and summon some epic level creatures like gibbering orbs, scry back to his location and then he will last maybe 4 rounds at most.

Since we're customizing Borys the same principles apply, you choose feats and abilities that insures he has initiative and some spare XP to burn on spells and then rinse and repeat. Additionally Elminster doesn't have epic level spellcasting in the Epic handbook which settles it, looking at the above its overkill. Elminster just isn't that strong compared to what any metagaming with access to the SRD can pull out.

Unless you rule that Elminster can shapechange into a 200 foot cubed adamantine and kills you by falling damage the one time I and a DM tested the above and the experiment ended there due to rules lawyering.

My strategy hinges on two things, Gibbering Orbs, easily are least two Simulcrums of them spamming Dysjunction to rip off Elminsters defences, and a simulcrum of a Hecatoncheires and abuse its [Su] summon Hecatoncheires ability to bring in a second real full HD one for free which is a CR 73 creature with about 100 attacks a round that can fly.

Also if you can get Borys to go first and he is I presume a Dragon of HD Huge or larger you can just bullrush and grapple Elminster and he won't be able to cast spells that require hand movement. Unless Dragon is just a title?

Unless I'm missing something the same 20th level character should also be able to kill Borys but only if he can do so before Bory's gets his turn, epic spellcasting tends to be the answer to anything.

[Aharon]

@Imperial Overlord
If on Athas, Borys is more likely to win, conceeded.
But I thought the battle does take place on neutral ground, not on Athas, anyway?

@Blayne
The stats of Elmi in the ELH don't include his prepared spells. Assuming moderate optimisation here, the eye rays of the Gibbering Orbs won't hit (Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image, a few sources of natural armor (spider skin, bark skin)+scintillating scales).
The Hec is a threat to badly prepared casters, but can be taken out by a 20th level character that knows what is coming. Again, Elmi's prepared spells aren't given. I assume at least some divination.

[Blayne]

+31 to its ranged touch attack plus whatever enchantments you can put on it prior to battle? It ain't missing, additionally you could always take the risk and fire off a burst yourself since you'll always go first during the surprise round plus your full round after that and then let the Gibbering orbs do their thing with extra bursts.

Regardless of Elminsters spell lists if he's caught flat footed its a death sentence in a high level encounter. Additionally Divination won't help Elminster as presumably you have anti scrying/anti divination enchantments while preparing for the engagement or otherwise raise them after teleporting away in the "dropped in roll init" scenario.

That and you can always cheese up a familiar into a solar* to act as support with full 9th level cleric spellcasting for extra goodness and shapechange yourself into a juvenile prismatic dragon and grapple him (or just have the gibbering orbs grapple him with swallow whole and then strip him of his stuff).

The problem here facing either character is *not* that they don't know what's coming but its effectively four to five epic level monsters plus a solar and the wizard who summoned them while unable to run away and caught in a surprise round as presumably he won't be able to divine that something is coming and even if there is some exception I don't know about he still likely won't be first in the turn order.

*Not 100% sure if its a solar but something along those lines I don't remember from when I did this myself.

[Aharon]

You ignored the miss chances.

AC:
Base 10+23 natural (shapechange pit fiend)+5 enh. nat (spider skin)+5 luck nat (amulet, item alteration)+5 deflection (ring)+5 untyped (weapon, lesser weapon augmentation (defending)+1 dodge(haste)+8 dex base +5 dex enh (divine agility via item)-1 size=66

Act first => Precognition, never surprised.

He will also have contingencies.

[Blayne]

All of those items would have their magic stripped if the character decides to fire off a burst of Dysjunction himself because he will still go first in the initiative order, also I believe your abusing the text of Precognition as I believe it doesn't work like that, or at least not in a way you can keep going for 24/7.

Additionally no matter how much AC you have you'll still get hit on a roll of a natural 20 so just bring in 4-5 gibbering orb simulcrums and thats 20 to 25 dysjunction rays until it hits, not counting all of the various spells that can boost their chances to beat that AC.

He has +31, with true strike it becomes +61, Gtr, Heroism becomes +65, meaning a roll of 1 and Elminster is stripped of his magic.

Also you can only have iirc one contingency at a time set up at a time and the only worthwhile contingency to have is to teleport out, which won't work as if we're smart we cast the more powerful dimensional anchor spell that locks around 100 miles in all directions to prevent teleportation in or out.

[Aharon]

All of those items would have their magic stripped if the character decides to fire off a burst of Dysjunction himself because he will still go first in the initiative order, also I believe your abusing the text of Precognition as I believe it doesn't work like that, or at least not in a way you can keep going for 24/7.

Why do you assume he will go first? How do you think I'm abusing the spell text? It outright says the caster is never surprised.

Additionally no matter how much AC you have you'll still get hit on a roll of a natural 20 so just bring in 4-5 gibbering orb simulcrums and thats 20 to 25 dysjunction rays until it hits, not counting all of the various spells that can boost their chances to beat that AC.

I assumed Gibbering Orbs work like beholders, meaning they have 1 spell/eye, so only one disjunction/round. Even if they have more than one, it is unlikely to succeed, since you continue to ignore miss chances.

He has +31, with true strike it becomes +61, Gtr, Heroism becomes +65, meaning a roll of 1 and Elminster is stripped of his magic.

True Strike is 1) personal, and 2)only applies to one attack.

Also you can only have iirc one contingency at a time set up at a time and the only worthwhile contingency to have is to teleport out, which won't work as if we're smart we cast the more powerful dimensional anchor spell that locks around 100 miles in all directions to prevent teleportation in or out.

@more powerful dimensional anchor
Which spell would that be?

@Contingencies
Contingency
Greater Shadow Evocation (Contingency)
Chain Contingency
for 5 personal contingencies.

Also, Craft Contingent spell for up to 35 more contingencies (costs a bit, but Elminster is descriebe as having access to virtually any item, which crafted contingencies count as).

[Blayne]

I was looking at the wrong spell, there's a level 1 seer spell that's similar, but nevertheless its only 10 minutes per level so 4-5 hours meaning you can time it so that you teleport in when its not active, like when he's sleeping. Or teleport in invisible, teleport out (combat is over) and then teleport back in and his foresight is used up, surprised!

I meant http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm which I misremembered but you only need it to keep Elminster from teleporting out long enough to immobilize him; adjust, adapt etc.

Additionally we have the opportunity to craft a character either the Dragon specified above or a hypothetical level 20, meaning we can abuse whatever cheese we want to insure we go first and always go first Elminster does not have that luxury.

Heck there's a level 1 spell as a swift action that basically is "Always go first: The Spell, the End thanks for playing." Though I would have to look it up, its in the Batman Wizard guide on the WotC forums.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters ... ingOrb.htm Has 5 rays it can put to any single target and 24 attacks per round in total it can point in any direction, so each Gibbering Orb has five.

And are you really suggesting that throughout the entirety of 3.5e there isn't a spell thats basically true strike but for Other? I am extremely skeptical. Heck while we're at it why not just get a wand or gauntlets of true strike and just give them to the Gibbering Orb and have them use it himself? He clearly has the INT to do it.

Also what miss chance?

"Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target."

Additionally it doesn't matter if True strike is only for one attack you have two Gibbering Orbs at a minimum, so thats two attacks that will always hit, in case he has an energy transformation field I would use them on two dysjunctions and with that he has no defences and no magic items.

Additionally

@Contingencies
Contingency
Greater Shadow Evocation (Contingency)
Chain Contingency
for 5 personal contingencies.

Uhm, "Chain Contingency" doesn't exist in 3.5e dude. Also Shadow'ed contingency can't stack with real contingency either because:

1) It mimics the whole spell including the "You cannot cast more than one contingency at a time on yourself" rule or my personal favorite:

2) Since it is casted as an illusion spell and you as the caster know for a fact it is not real, thus it has no effect on you.

So you are stuck with one contingency spell, and Elminster does not have the Craft Contingency feat; nor do I see anything online that it can be casted on an item, only on a "person or creature", so I have no idea how or why you would think it counts as an item.

3) Contingency I'm pretty sure is also personal only, meaning that you cannot have someone else craft a contingency for him it won't work.

There's other tactics as well though some conflict, such as casting Anti magic field on the Gibbering orb which is a simulcrum and thus a construct and unaffected by it, its rays still work and just plop it right next to Elminster which shuts off his contingencies and then Elminster gets glomped.

[Solauren]

Anti-magic Field.

Borys tears Elminster apart.

Sorry, even the weakesst feasible write up I could do for Borys, he rips Elminster apart.
He can counter-spell Elminster until Elminster is out of power, then rip him apart with Psionics, or just rip him apart.

There is a reason Dark Sun was considered 'over-powered' in many circles.