Game of Thrones Season 4 discussion (book spoilers included)

[Vympel]

New season begins soon, discussion goes here. Open slather on spoilers. Companion thread for TV only spoilers to be created as well when I get the chance.

[MrDakka]

So is the Hound still on Arya's list?

[Napoleon the Clown]

Based off stuff in the books, very much so. We can't be sure if HBO will change that, but I doubt it will. Arya's not big on the forgive-and-forget concept. If you haven't read up on it: The Hound gets wounded and the wound gets infected. Arya considers finishing him off herself but ends up not doing so. It's somewhat ambiguous as to if the Hound actually did die or not, or if he was saved and took on a new life. Time will tell.

[Crown]

Parenting with the Hound 101; too many men to kill on an empty stomach!

I'm so happy this is back on!

[Ziggy Stardust]

Great first episode of the season. Avoided the Bran subplot, which is my least favorite (seriously, the two Reed kids are just really, really annoying). The Hound and Arya's little sitcom is always a treat.

Why is Alliser Thorne such a douchebag, anyway? One of my only problems with the show is that when they want you to dislike a character, they sometimes go a big over-the-top and cartoonish in making him look like a jackass. Of course, as was the case with Jaime and The Hound, they are often able to later add some subtlety and sympathy to even these characters. But still, Thorne is just such an ass for no apparent reason.

[Scrib]

Great first episode of the season. Avoided the Bran subplot, which is my least favorite (seriously, the two Reed kids are just really, really annoying). The Hound and Arya's little sitcom is always a treat.

Why is Alliser Thorne such a douchebag, anyway? One of my only problems with the show is that when they want you to dislike a character, they sometimes go a big over-the-top and cartoonish in making him look like a jackass. Of course, as was the case with Jaime and The Hound, they are often able to later add some subtlety and sympathy to even these characters. But still, Thorne is just such an ass for no apparent reason.

It's especially bad because Alliser Thorne is such a straight "mean teacher"/Snape character.

That said there are reasons: Alliser Thorne served the Targs if I recall correctly. He did his job for his king and in return Robert Baratheon's rebellion led to him being sent to The Wall. Granted, it was Tywin (Robert was generally merciful...most of the time) but Robert was the rebel, he pardoned Tywin and so I suspect that he hates all the Usurpers.

Also: Jon Snow undermined him. It is not for Jon Snow to decide how Sam was to be trained. Now, this makes sense to all of us modern people because we don't want to beat people but Sam was-and is- a coward. It was Thorne's responsibility to either whip him into some sort of shape or make absolutely sure that he was worthless (even if it seemed pretty obvious from the start) Jon Snow rushed in where he had no right to be, and "fixed" the problem . As far as Thorne is concerned it's not his decision.

And this ties into the talk Tyrion gave him about unconsciously flaunting his class privilege: in comes this little bastard from the oldest house in Westeros and not only do you hate his family the little shit won't learn his place like everyone else. The Wall has a hierarchy (of free men) godsdamnit! It's the closest thing to a meritocracy this side of the Wall. He doesn't get to just do whatever the fuck he wants because daddy taught him how to handle a sword, you're the damned Master-at-arms!

And really, being suspicious to some degree is sensible. Being disdainful of the wildlings to some degree is sensible. The real question is how he responds to the warnings he got. But the maester made the decision for him.

[Scrib]

Also: Cersei is a bitch for no reason. In the books Jaime was being more than a little fucking unreasonable. I really hope that we get some nuance here beyond just punting the bitchiness to acceptable characters to make others look better (a la Joff murdering the bastards)

And the guy who met Thormund is fucking awesome. A horrible person but played really well. I already want him dead.

[TheHammer]

I'd like to know how Janos Slint was suddenly apparently part of the leadership of the nights watch despite being a relatively "new recruit", who should by all rights, be lower ranked than Jon Snow. Granted, being a former commander of the city guard of Kingslanding might merit such, but I seem to recall Benjin chiding Jon about having to "earn his place" in the Nights Watch.

I'm also curious as to how leadership issues are handle amongst the watch. I haven't read any of the books, maybe its explained there, but clearly its not purely based on seniority - although seniority certainly helps. Now that the previous Lord Commander is dead, who makes the decision on the new commander? The nights watch "elders"? The King? I wonder if its similar to how Supreme Court Justices are selected.

[Scrib]

I'd like to know how Janos Slint was suddenly apparently part of the leadership of the nights watch despite being a relatively "new recruit", who should by all rights, be lower ranked than Jon Snow. Granted, being a former commander of the city guard of Kingslanding might merit such, but I seem to recall Benjin chiding Jon about having to "earn his place" in the Nights Watch.

I'm also curious as to how leadership issues are handle amongst the watch. I haven't read any of the books, maybe its explained there, but clearly its not purely based on seniority - although seniority certainly helps. Now that the previous Lord Commander is dead, who makes the decision on the new commander? The nights watch "elders"? The King? I wonder if its similar to how Supreme Court Justices are selected.

Jon has to earn his place because he's not a distinguished person; he's just a noble's bastard. It's not that there's a hierarchy that you have to climb step by step with set time limits like the Cursus Honorum, it's that you need skills and actions and Jon had neither. Janos Slynt was a former commander and as such he had a certain amount of "preference".And classism probably helped there too really. Also: he is Thorne's toady and Thorne is Acting Commander.

Which leads us to the other point. The Lord Commander makes appointments. The Lord Commander is elected by all the brothers.

[Vympel]

*grabs the episode and hugs it*

With one opening sequence, the showrunners easily dispatched my pet peeve since Season 1 - the lack of recognition of Ice's identity as a Stark family heirloom. Not only did they make seeing it in action, in Ned's hand, and against Ned's neck, in the last part of the "previously" segment, but they had its reforgining make a beautiful opening to the season - with Tywin tossing the now useless, wolf-skin scabbard into the fire a wonderful touch.

There was so much to like about this episode I don't know where to start. How good was Dontos Hollard in his scene?! Olenna Tyrell and Brienne interacting was gold. Brienne and Jaime in King's Landing. Tywin and Jaime. Tyrion and Oberyn. Oberyn talking about Rhaegar leaving his sister for another woman. Arya and the Hound was just great. The dragons! I could go on and on and on.

[Scrib]

I already dislike Oberyn as well. Which is a good thing, even though it hints at a certain moral provincialism in me. He's clearly dangerous, he's clearly not willing to make things comfortable for anyone and he's clearly going to cause problems.

[Crown]

I already dislike Oberyn as well. Which is a good thing, even though it hints at a certain moral provincialism in me. He's clearly dangerous, he's clearly not willing to make things comfortable for anyone and he's clearly going to cause problems.

I already dislike Oberyn as well.

...

I dislike Oberyn

Kill it! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!

Dude Oberyn is (like Affleck in Phantoms) ... the BOMB yo!

[Crazedwraith]

Also: Cersei is a bitch for no reason. In the books Jaime was being more than a little fucking unreasonable.

In the books? All Jaime did to piss her off there was refused to kill Tyrion for her. and he pissed off other people just by trying to hold to his vows and actually do the job of Commander of the Kingsguard they gave him. Kinda of unreasonable from the pov of Cersei and Tywin but not really actually unreasonable.

I've not seen any of the show since S1 but given that they seem to have got Jaime back home much sooner, that seems like it should have a big knock effect for the rest of the story.

[Scrib]

Also: Cersei is a bitch for no reason. In the books Jaime was being more than a little fucking unreasonable.

In the books? All Jaime did to piss her off there was refused to kill Tyrion for her. and he pissed off other people just by trying to hold to his vows and actually do the job of Commander of the Kingsguard they gave him. Kinda of unreasonable from the pov of Cersei and Tywin but not really actually unreasonable.

I've not seen any of the show since S1 but given that they seem to have got Jaime back home much sooner, that seems like it should have a big knock effect for the rest of the story.

Uh...no.Jaime wanted to be open about their relationship. Well...that and he wanted to tell Joffrey that he was a bastard born of incest. Really, he wanted to take Cersei and go public but if he couldn't he seemed to want to leave, which is absurd.

As for how unreasonable it is for him to stay Kingsguard: he lost his hand: he sucks now. He is now suspected of incest so it's insane for him to stick around both Joff and Cersei and be constantly seen with them. Also insane to not go marry and maintain the Rock to dispel the rumours.

That said: Martin was also pretty happy to conveniently split him from his family. I suppose it's easier to build sympathy when you snark off to Tywin a la Tyrion and stop fucking your sister.

[Crazedwraith]

Uh...no.Jaime wanted to be open about their relationship. Well...that and he wanted to tell Joffrey that he was a bastard born of incest. Really, he wanted to take Cersei and go public but if he couldn't he seemed to want to leave, which is absurd.

As for how unreasonable it is for him to stay Kingsguard: he lost his hand: he sucks now. He is now suspected of incest so it's insane for him to stick around both Joff and Cersei and be constantly seen with them. Also insane to not go marry and maintain the Rock to dispel the rumours.

That said: Martin was also pretty happy to conveniently split him from his family. I suppose it's easier to build sympathy when you snark off to Tywin a la Tyrion and stop fucking your sister.

If we're talking books you mean Tommen not Joffery? Must be overdue a re-read because the 'lets be open about the incest' thing slipped my mind in comparison to the fight about Tyrion and the one with Tywin. (refreshing my memory it goes alter incest and a fight about being open about it > arguement with Tywin > cersei tries to seduce him and get him to kill Tyrion in the white tower? Then in Feast Cersei orders him into the riverlands and he reluctantly goes)

Yeah, I see why it would advantageous for politics for him to do what Tywin says. But that doesn't make it unreasonable for him to say 'No. I have a job. I took an oath. I'm going to keep them.'

[Scrib]

Hm, you may be right. They probably did speed up Jaime's arrival and that's whats causing the problem. Either way, whichever son it was, Cersei had reasons beyond "lol, missed me!" As I recall the fight about Tommen happened relatively soon after he arrived. I'm hoping that this will be dealt with so I won't get on it now.

As for not doing what Tywin says: sure (Although one could argue that, in this situation advantageous politics is the only reasonable path, YMMV). However,while Cersei was more than a little paranoid at the time of his arrival and their break-up their relationship didn't end on this LOL, YOLO note. And it probably won't here because Jaime needs to... discover certain things.

As for your memory...more or less. First (or second)the incest thing, then Tyrion then she asked him to be Hand and he told her to fuck off then Riverlands.

[Crown]

Oh and bye the way Vympel for season five please use the following in the opening post, because lets be honest we were all feeling it;

[Pelranius]

I keep on getting this weird notion that Cersei will end up killing Tywin and pinning the blame on Tyrion (Tywin might take a more active role in the Purple Wedding).

Also don't care for Oberyn (I imagined him to be a lot more oily, the actor is good but he comes off just a tad stuffy).

[Vympel]

Oh and bye the way Vympel for season five please use the following in the opening post, because lets be honest we were all feeling it;

Duly noted

It's definitely happening with ratings the first episode got - highest ever. Exceeded Season 3 premiere by 2 million or so.

[Ralin]

I'd like to know how Janos Slint was suddenly apparently part of the leadership of the nights watch despite being a relatively "new recruit", who should by all rights, be lower ranked than Jon Snow. Granted, being a former commander of the city guard of Kingslanding might merit such, but I seem to recall Benjin chiding Jon about having to "earn his place" in the Nights Watch.

I'm also curious as to how leadership issues are handle amongst the watch. I haven't read any of the books, maybe its explained there, but clearly its not purely based on seniority - although seniority certainly helps. Now that the previous Lord Commander is dead, who makes the decision on the new commander? The nights watch "elders"? The King? I wonder if its similar to how Supreme Court Justices are selected.

Jon has to earn his place because he's not a distinguished person; he's just a noble's bastard. It's not that there's a hierarchy that you have to climb step by step with set time limits like the Cursus Honorum, it's that you need skills and actions and Jon had neither. Janos Slynt was a former commander and as such he had a certain amount of "preference".And classism probably helped there too really. Also: he is Thorne's toady and Thorne is Acting Commander.

Which leads us to the other point. The Lord Commander makes appointments. The Lord Commander is elected by all the brothers.

Slynt is also the former lord of Harrenhall, don't forget. Technically. And he presumably does have actual leadership and organizational skills even if he is corrupt and a horrible person.

And hell, Jon Snow got plenty of preference. You think Maester Aemon would given a regular newbie the time of day if one came to plead his fat cowardly friend's case? His first assignment was to be the Lord Commander's personal steward; and it's outright said the Old Bear probably meant to groom him for command.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Also: Jon Snow undermined him. It is not for Jon Snow to decide how Sam was to be trained. Now, this makes sense to all of us modern people because we don't want to beat people but Sam was-and is- a coward. It was Thorne's responsibility to either whip him into some sort of shape or make absolutely sure that he was worthless (even if it seemed pretty obvious from the start) Jon Snow rushed in where he had no right to be, and "fixed" the problem . As far as Thorne is concerned it's not his decision.

Meh, I understand that. I don't think Thorne should be bro-hugging Snow or anything. I just think the show-runners went overboard in trying to make Thorne more ornery than is necessary.

The scene that really stuck out in my mind as being wildly silly was when Jon was training, at some point Thorne (out of anger over the whole Sam thing) tells 3 other recruits to attack Snow. Snow easily beats them off, and Thorne's response is something along the lines of "Go clean the kitchens. That's all you're good for."

Um … well, clearly that isn't all he's good for if he just took out 3 guys in like 8 seconds.

I understand on paper why Thorne would act the way he does, I just feel like the show doesn't balance his character right, and have just turned him into a scowling cardboard cut-out whose only purpose is to act as a villain of sorts for Snow to overcome.

[Ziggy Stardust]

On another note, I really hope this season the show does something more interesting with the sequences north of the wall. I found season 3 to be terribly disappointing in that regard. I mean, the first 2 seasons they always built up the areas north of the wall as being incredibly mysterious, explicitly magical, dangerous, and full of all sorts of strange wonders/terrors. Instead, we get about 5 seconds of screen time for the White Walkers, 5 seconds of screen time for a giant building a big tent, and like 12 hours of Jon Snow pouting. I want the area north of the wall to feel exotic and strange and remote. I just don't feel like they have really portrayed it even remotely as interesting as people have talked about it.

[Scrib]

Also: Jon Snow undermined him. It is not for Jon Snow to decide how Sam was to be trained. Now, this makes sense to all of us modern people because we don't want to beat people but Sam was-and is- a coward. It was Thorne's responsibility to either whip him into some sort of shape or make absolutely sure that he was worthless (even if it seemed pretty obvious from the start) Jon Snow rushed in where he had no right to be, and "fixed" the problem . As far as Thorne is concerned it's not his decision.

Meh, I understand that. I don't think Thorne should be bro-hugging Snow or anything. I just think the show-runners went overboard in trying to make Thorne more ornery than is necessary.

The scene that really stuck out in my mind as being wildly silly was when Jon was training, at some point Thorne (out of anger over the whole Sam thing) tells 3 other recruits to attack Snow. Snow easily beats them off, and Thorne's response is something along the lines of "Go clean the kitchens. That's all you're good for."

Um … well, clearly that isn't all he's good for if he just took out 3 guys in like 8 seconds.

I understand on paper why Thorne would act the way he does, I just feel like the show doesn't balance his character right, and have just turned him into a scowling cardboard cut-out whose only purpose is to act as a villain of sorts for Snow to overcome.

Well...it was clearly punishment. Snow can't get away with that shit.

But Thorne has some characterization here. and here That's about it. But it is essentially what was speculated here. Privileged bastards skate through,not prepared etc.And funnily enough, when Sam does get out in the cold what does he do? Fuck up. If you watch the whole second video it makes his hate make more sense. Jon went out of his way to completely undermine him.

But this is a bit of a common criticism of Snow's story. He seems like the hero and he gets convenient baddies and he rarely has to really fuck shit up himself. Even when he kills someone like the Halfhand it was for a good cause. Even when he fucks Ygritte there's some convenient reason (at least in the books)

[Mr Bean]

Finally saw the episode
1. Poor Styr, to go from Magnar of Then the one lord north of the wall with a proud if small people who rever him as a living god to a punk rock cannibalistic obvious badguy.
Granted the Thens could be people eaters but one of the main reasons for picking Styr's group was because the Thens had disipline which 99% of other wildlings lacked. So taking a detour to raid a village bad idea.

2. Hello Oberyn, welcome to the section in my head where Arya and Tyrion hang out, the "this is what the book characters look like now". I was kind of iffy on his casting but I loved the interactions between him and his paramour.

3. I loved seeing white book and getting to see Jamie and Brienne hang out.

4. Odd way they are taking sir Dontos which auto-corrected turned into Sir Doritos twice.

*Edit
5. Can I say how perfect the child signpost was? They got that so perfect. It brought back my post way back in the day on the Reddit ASOIAF thread about what the cruelest single act in the books (And now the show). As nasty as the red wedding is, nothing tops taking 163 children marching them out of the city and day by day probably about ten a day marching out nailing one to a cross then herding the children on. I wonder if they bothered to hide it from the other slaves or made them watch as day by day more children were pulled from the column to be nailed up. Either way it's the worst form of cruelty because it's organized and planned cruelty on an industrial scale.

[Ralin]

The scene that really stuck out in my mind as being wildly silly was when Jon was training, at some point Thorne (out of anger over the whole Sam thing) tells 3 other recruits to attack Snow. Snow easily beats them off, and Thorne's response is something along the lines of "Go clean the kitchens. That's all you're good for."

Um … well, clearly that isn't all he's good for if he just took out 3 guys in like 8 seconds.

Thorne probably thought it wasn't all that impressive. As Tyrion/Donal Noye points out Jon had the advantage of growing up with a master-at-arms to train him, whereas the three he was up against had probably never held swords in their lives. I'm guessing Thorne was thinking "lol peasants" more than anything else.

Plus he does constantly insult all of the new recruits from what we see.