Cthulhu and the incident with the boat

[libertyjim]

I'm not absolutely certain that this belongs on FAN but I hope it does. Please move if not.

I've been itching to discuss lovecraftian horrors for a while but revision and Christmas have gotten in the way until now. I would actually like to chat about a lot more than Cthulhu and the boat incident but I thought I'd try to keep the topic specific. Also I don't plan on flooding the board with lovecraftian horrors so don't worry too much. With that said lets get to the discussion.

For those that don't know Cthulhu is a giant octopus/dragon/humanoid monster/maybe sorta god from the story 'The Call of Cthulhu' by H P Lovecraft (1926). The incident with the boat occurs at the finale of the story in which a protagonist ploughs a steam boat (a boat of the time one assumes) into Cthulhu. The result is a little ambiguous and has caused much argument over the nature of Cthulhu and his invulnerability or lack thereof. Sometimes people misquote the story either to troll or just out of ignorance and it annoys me so I thought I'd cover the subject now. Specifically people misquote the story so that they can state how Cthulhu either isn't impressive because he gets killed by a boat or conversely is invincible because the ramming of the boat had no effect.

Here's the quote (correct as of the Commemorative Edition of the Necronomicon):
'The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves , and a sound that the chronicler would not put to paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where - God in heaven! - the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam.'

If you can make sense of that (difficult in parts I know) then what seems to happen is that the yacht known as the Alert gets driven through Cthulhu cutting into him or perhaps splitting off a part of his body but he seems to have a strong healing factor and heals the wound quickly. After this the only eye witness account no longer discusses Cthulhu; only of Johansen and his crew's escape. This gives rise to questions like 'Why didn't Cthulhu eat Johansen and the rest of the crew?' and 'Did Cthulhu just get bored and leave or was he actually injured and needed time to heal or maybe he died?' I personally think that the second is most likely; I think Cthulhu while theoretically unkillable was slowed down by his injury and that gave Johansen time to get away.

In support of this position the 5th edition of the Call of Cthulhu game states that 'at 0 hitpoints, Cthulhu bursts and dissolves into a disgusting, cloying greenish cloud, then immediately begins to reform. He needs 1d10+10 (11-20 for you non-rpg nerds) minutes to regain full solidity and, when he does, he then has a full 160 hit points once again.' So then theoretically Cthulhu can't be permanently killed so long as this rule stands. Not the original work I know but I believe we can take it into account.

What do you think? Also feel free to discuss things you think might kill Cthulhu permanently and/or other things that relate to Cthulhu.

[biostem]

I haven't had a lot of experience in either the mythos or game, but I always viewed Cthulu as a sort of "embodiment" of eldritch power, insanity, and forbidden knowledge, rather than just some big octopus-headed monster. To me, it would be more about the person piloting that yacht having squared away their mental state and focusing on defeating this adversary, than simply getting something massive enough to move fast enough, in order to bring down this beast. If it was just a matter of needing to deal enough damage to put the monster down, then I could conceive of a situation where some trained military personnel simply blast the thing with RPGs, then collect portions of it in separate containers, to prevent it from reforming...

[libertyjim]

I haven't had a lot of experience in either the mythos or game, but I always viewed Cthulu as a sort of "embodiment" of eldritch power, insanity, and forbidden knowledge, rather than just some big octopus-headed monster. To me, it would be more about the person piloting that yacht having squared away their mental state and focusing on defeating this adversary, than simply getting something massive enough to move fast enough, in order to bring down this beast. If it was just a matter of needing to deal enough damage to put the monster down, then I could conceive of a situation where some trained military personnel simply blast the thing with RPGs, then collect portions of it in separate containers, to prevent it from reforming...

Oh I do agree that the point of the story isn't really about the physical capabilities of Cthulhu or how tough he is but rather what he implies. I just thought I'd stick to objectively what the author wrote rather than what he intended since I'm posting here on SDN and I know how you lot value objectivity. Just because lovecraftian horrors are supposed to be impossible to understand by there very nature doesn't mean we can't discuss what we do know about them. As for the situation you suggest with separate containers I have two counter points:
1. the Cthulhu goo is probably toxic or otherwise dangerous (could be overcome)
2. it might be extremely difficult to contain. On speculation based on the non-euclidean nature of R'lyeh (the city in which Cthulhu lives) the goo might somehow be able to 'escape' containment because it and Cthulhu may be extra dimensional. I'll try to find a quote about R'lyeh's dimensions:
'He said that the geometry of the dream-place he saw was abnormal , non-Euclidean, and loathsomely redolent of spheres and dimensions apart from ours.' Also later 'twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of craven rock where a second glance showed concavity after the first showed convexity.' Just because the city is non-euclidean doesn't necessarily mean Cthulhu is but well he does live there and his spawn produced the city so I think it's fair to assume that he is.

Also 'Cthulu' is an alternative spelling to the original 'Cthulhu.'

[biostem]

But ramming him with a boat objectively disrupted his structure, so it must have some effect. Did the story deal with the aftereffects of the person being exposed to the goo or gasses Cthulu released when struck? If not, then there's no reason to conclude that they are necessarily toxic. If you can estimate the tonnage of the yacht and the speed that it was traveling at, then you can come up with a value necessary to cause such damage, (which I'm confident is less than some bombs, RPGs, or other military hardware can inflict).

[libertyjim]

But ramming him with a boat objectively disrupted his structure, so it must have some effect. Did the story deal with the aftereffects of the person being exposed to the goo or gasses Cthulu released when struck? If not, then there's no reason to conclude that they are necessarily toxic. If you can estimate the tonnage of the yacht and the speed that it was traveling at, then you can come up with a value necessary to cause such damage, (which I'm confident is less than some bombs, RPGs, or other military hardware can inflict).

Admittedly no the story didn't suggest the gases and liquids were anything more than smelly; it just seemed like a reasonable assumption because everything in lovecraftian horror is the bane of human existence but no you're right I can't make that assumption. He was definitely affected by the ramming and an attack of greater force could have more of an effect but that doesn't take away from the point that he will reform afterwards.

[biostem]

But ramming him with a boat objectively disrupted his structure, so it must have some effect. Did the story deal with the aftereffects of the person being exposed to the goo or gasses Cthulu released when struck? If not, then there's no reason to conclude that they are necessarily toxic. If you can estimate the tonnage of the yacht and the speed that it was traveling at, then you can come up with a value necessary to cause such damage, (which I'm confident is less than some bombs, RPGs, or other military hardware can inflict).

Admittedly no the story didn't suggest the gases and liquids were anything more than smelly; it just seemed like a reasonable assumption because everything in lovecraftian horror is the bane of human existence but no you're right I can't make that assumption. He was definitely affected by the ramming and an attack of greater force could have more of an effect but that doesn't take away from the point that he will reform afterwards.

I certainly grant that. That's why, to me, it's more about the concept of Cthulu always being there - ready to tempt you with forbidden knowledge, or to remind you of some lost love or death you could have prevented - an ongoing torment that you cannot simply overcome with firepower and strategy. That's why, to me, it's more about the person choosing to overcome their fear, (even if just temporarily), in order to muster up the courage and will to face it head-on.

[Batman]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And most of Lovecraftian horror is actually pretty pathetic as physical threats go. It's all about twisting and molding and seducing a person's mind (and occasionally their body) rather than brute-forcing the rest of the world. A lot of Lovecraftian Horrors were stopped by private persons with limited and decidedly real-world resources. Lovecraft Horror doesn't stomp on cities and take over the world and stuff...it drives individuals and small communities mad. Cthulhu the World-Devastator didn't happen until long after Lovecraft's death from what I can tell.

[libertyjim]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And most of Lovecraftian horror is actually pretty pathetic as physical threats go. It's all about twisting and molding and seducing a person's mind (and occasionally their body) rather than brute-forcing the rest of the world. A lot of Lovecraftian Horrors were stopped by private persons with limited and decidedly real-world resources. Lovecraft Horror doesn't stomp on cities and take over the world and stuff...it drives individuals and small communities mad. Cthulhu the World-Devastator didn't happen until long after Lovecraft's death from what I can tell.

Not sure if a nuke would actually work. Do you think non-euclidean creatures could be destroyed by euclidean weapons? I suppose its possible for the radiation of a nuke to move into dimensions we can't perceive but that would require explanation and experiments because we don't record an unexplained loss of radiation as far as I know.

While I agree that generally lovecraftian horrors only affect small communities Cthulhu did drive several people around the world insane. Would have to re-read to get exact numbers. I do stick to Lovecraft's original works but there are a few city stompers there and a few universe stompers.

[biostem]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And most of Lovecraftian horror is actually pretty pathetic as physical threats go. It's all about twisting and molding and seducing a person's mind (and occasionally their body) rather than brute-forcing the rest of the world. A lot of Lovecraftian Horrors were stopped by private persons with limited and decidedly real-world resources. Lovecraft Horror doesn't stomp on cities and take over the world and stuff...it drives individuals and small communities mad. Cthulhu the World-Devastator didn't happen until long after Lovecraft's death from what I can tell.

Not sure if a nuke would actually work. Do you think non-euclidean creatures could be destroyed by euclidean weapons? I suppose its possible for the radiation of a nuke to move into dimensions we can't perceive but that would require explanation and experiments because we don't record an unexplained loss of radiation as far as I know.

While I agree that generally lovecraftian horrors only affect small communities Cthulhu did drive several people around the world insane. Would have to re-read to get exact numbers. I do stick to Lovecraft's original works but there are a few city stompers there and a few universe stompers.

Here's the problem you run into - if ramming Cthulu with a boat works, (even if just temporarily), then anything that can deliver an equal or greater amount of force should work as well. The question would be whether it would be worth it to actually resort to nuclear weapons, since you may very now be faced with a huge irradiated crater, plus a very angry Cthulu reforming itself, in an area where no one can easily travel to, in order to try fighting it again or performing any sort of cleanup.

[Batman]

Who's to say there's any Chtulhu left TO reform? He was not inconsiderably inconvenienced by being rammed by a yacht (a 1920s one to boot) . How do you know his 'nebulously recombining' remains would survive even a small nuclear detonation?
And why would there be a huge irradiated crater? Last I checked the incident happend at sea/close to an island nobody knew existed. Who cares if that Island is irradiated?

[libertyjim]

Who's to say there's any Chtulhu left TO reform? He was not inconsiderably inconvenienced by being rammed by a yacht (a 1920s one to boot) . How do you know his 'nebulously recombining' remains would survive even a small nuclear detonation?
And why would there be a huge irradiated crater? Last I checked the incident happend at sea/close to an island nobody knew existed. Who cares if that Island is irradiated?

Well like I said it may not matter how hard you hit him; he'll still reform assuming he partially exists outside of the first three dimensions (I explained earlier why I think that is a reasonable assumption). You are right about the area not mattering though. R'lyeh is supposed to be close to the point in the ocean furthest from any considerable land mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%27lyeh

[Batman]

If we assume real world physics don't apply why bother discussing it? The only possible answer is 'we haven't the foggiest'.

[libertyjim]

If we assume real world physics don't apply why bother discussing it? The only possible answer is 'we haven't the foggiest'.

https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic ... 32&t=26144

[Batman]

And yet you apparently didn't understand a single word of it. You're claiming Chtulhu can survive being nuked because he partially exists out of normal space-time.
Prove it.

[Batman]

Chtulhu and his brethren were never a threat physically the way Wells' Martians were (not in the original works at any rate). They didn't conquer. They corrupted.

[libertyjim]

And yet you apparently didn't understand a single word of it. You're claiming Chtulhu can survive being nuked because he partially exists out of normal space-time.
Prove it.

I'm arguing that a non-euclidean city was almost certainly made by non-euclidean beings. Therefore Cthulhu and his spawn are non-euclidean. What about that doesn't make sense to you? Also I'm just supporting my own point of view not claiming that its more or less valid than the point of view of anybody else. I get why you think Cthulhu wouldn't survive a nuke I just don't share your opinion.

[libertyjim]

Also I'm just supporting my own point of view not claiming that its more or less valid than the point of view of anybody else.

Missed the edit window on that. I realise that sentence is somewhat redundant; what I was really trying to say is that I'm enjoying our disagreement and the debate that comes with it Batman and wanted you to know that.

[Esquire]

I don't think people are using "non-Euclidean" the right way. Even planetary geometry isn't really Euclidean, it just looks that way because we're very small. S non-Euclidean creature doesn't have extra dimensions to hide in, it just lives in an area of differently-curved spacetime than the average human does.

[Elheru Aran]

Non-Euclidean is really a poor term anyway. There's a hell of a lot of geometry that's not Euclidean, which only means geometry in two or three flat planes. Newtonian geometry, for example (if I'm thinking of the right guy anyway, might have been someone else) allows you to do geometry on the surface of a sphere.

No, it's better to consider "non-Euclidean" a code term for what we would term alternate realities, alternate dimensions, that kind of thing, where standard physical laws may not apply. Places like R'lyeh are where portions of those alternate realities temporarily exist in ours, and we would only be able to interpret what we could see with our necessarily limited senses. An Escher picture makes sense if you look at it long enough; I imagine it would be much like that.

So what does that have to do with Cthulhu?

Either he's in our reality, he's not, or he's in both, sort of straddling the fence as it were. The last explanation is probably it. If he's not in our reality, then we wouldn't be able to do anything to him. If he's in it, we could hurt him, as long as he's vulnerable. If you can drive a boat through his head, he's probably vulnerable enough to kill with sufficient force. But if he's just going to come back together... that suggests that he's only in our reality enough to affect things within it. The fact that he can drive people insane from just looking at him suggests as well that he's outside our reality enough that we can't comprehend what we are looking at because it can't fit within our sensory parameters.

[Simon_Jester]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And most of Lovecraftian horror is actually pretty pathetic as physical threats go. It's all about twisting and molding and seducing a person's mind (and occasionally their body) rather than brute-forcing the rest of the world. A lot of Lovecraftian Horrors were stopped by private persons with limited and decidedly real-world resources. Lovecraft Horror doesn't stomp on cities and take over the world and stuff...it drives individuals and small communities mad. Cthulhu the World-Devastator didn't happen until long after Lovecraft's death from what I can tell.

It's fairly explicitly stated that Cthulhu or entities like him, when awake, could rapidly corrupt the whole world to the point of destroying civilization by 'teaching' us new ways to 'shout and revel and kill.'

Not sure if a nuke would actually work. Do you think non-euclidean creatures could be destroyed by euclidean weapons? I suppose its possible for the radiation of a nuke to move into dimensions we can't perceive but that would require explanation and experiments because we don't record an unexplained loss of radiation as far as I know.

There is no direct evidence that it would take a weapon capable of reaching more than three spatial dimensions to permanently disrupt Cthulhu's form.

There is, however, indirect evidence. We know from At the Mountains of Madness that the Elder Things colonized Earth tens or hundreds of millions of years ago, and warred against Cthulhu and his spawn for an immensely long period of time. Given what we know the Elder Things' technology to be capable of, and knowing what we now (not when Lovecraft wrote the story) know to be possible, it is almost inconceivable that the Elder Things lacked nuclear weapons technology.

So there's a good reason to think that "just nuke Cthulhu" isn't actually a long term answer to your Cthulhu problem. If it were, then presumably the Elder Things would have already done it.

[libertyjim]

There is no direct evidence that it would take a weapon capable of reaching more than three spatial dimensions to permanently disrupt Cthulhu's form.

There is, however, indirect evidence. We know from At the Mountains of Madness that the Elder Things colonized Earth tens or hundreds of millions of years ago, and warred against Cthulhu and his spawn for an immensely long period of time. Given what we know the Elder Things' technology to be capable of, and knowing what we now (not when Lovecraft wrote the story) know to be possible, it is almost inconceivable that the Elder Things lacked nuclear weapons technology.

So there's a good reason to think that "just nuke Cthulhu" isn't actually a long term answer to your Cthulhu problem. If it were, then presumably the Elder Things would have already done it.

Haven't read At the Mountains of Madness but I did read The Shadow Out of Time which was about the Great Race of Yith which had time travel technology. They could transplant minds through time and space; essentially swapping their minds with that of another being (apparently almost any other being) from another time or world even. Due to their time travel technology they apparently had knowledge about most of the universe's history. They feared the Elder Things so much that they left their bodies and time behind to live on as insectoids long after the human race existed. The fact that the race that had time travel tech feared the Elder Things makes me think they were suitably more advanced than Yith at least combat-wise.

The term 'non-euclidean' doesn't necessarily have to do with extra dimensions but from what I can tell does imply it. So the men from the alert see concavity and then convexity in the same spot because they're only seeing the object in three dimensions? I think that was the intent of the author.

[Simon_Jester]

My impression is that the Great Race of Yith were not particularly warlike. Given their ability to swap minds with other entities throughout all of time and space, they would be very likely to flee rather than fight even a moderately competent opponent. Their fear of the Elder Things may simply be a result of their not wanting to fight even if (in theory) they could.

That said, the Elder Things' "schtick" is still their high technology, including directed energy weapons. If just shooting at Cthulhu with big guns was all it took to destroy him, then it's a safe bet the Elder Things tried that. Although to be fair, at that time Cthulhu was presumably protected by an entire civilization of his spawn, so firing nuclear missiles at R'lyeh might well just have got them shot down by antimissile defenses, firing ray guns may have just gotten them stopped with shields, et cetera.

As to the geometry...

Quite a few Lovecraft stories link the idea of "non-Euclidean" geometry and extra dimensions or spatial curvature that allows for strange results. Basically, physical space as experienced by humans IS Euclidean to within the limits of our ability to observe it, so the only way to make that NOT be true is either with very large structures*, or by doing something very unnatural and unlikely to the basic geometry of space itself.

*Say, having people walk around on a sphere several miles across, in which case you could build a triangle with three straight sides following the surface of the sphere and three right angles at the corners without anyone noticing the subtle curvature.

[libertyjim]

My impression is that the Great Race of Yith were not particularly warlike. Given their ability to swap minds with other entities throughout all of time and space, they would be very likely to flee rather than fight even a moderately competent opponent. Their fear of the Elder Things may simply be a result of their not wanting to fight even if (in theory) they could.

That said, the Elder Things' "schtick" is still their high technology, including directed energy weapons. If just shooting at Cthulhu with big guns was all it took to destroy him, then it's a safe bet the Elder Things tried that. Although to be fair, at that time Cthulhu was presumably protected by an entire civilization of his spawn, so firing nuclear missiles at R'lyeh might well just have got them shot down by antimissile defenses, firing ray guns may have just gotten them stopped with shields, et cetera.

As to the geometry...

Quite a few Lovecraft stories link the idea of "non-Euclidean" geometry and extra dimensions or spatial curvature that allows for strange results. Basically, physical space as experienced by humans IS Euclidean to within the limits of our ability to observe it, so the only way to make that NOT be true is either with very large structures*, or by doing something very unnatural and unlikely to the basic geometry of space itself.

*Say, having people walk around on a sphere several miles across, in which case you could build a triangle with three straight sides following the surface of the sphere and three right angles at the corners without anyone noticing the subtle curvature.

Yith did indeed have energy weapons of some kind: 'An enormous army, using camera-like weapons which produced tremendous electrical effects, was kept on hand for purposes seldom mentioned.' But yeah I think Elder Things were just superior in that sense and the Yith were thinkers more than fighters.

Good example for real life non-euclidean geometry. It's probably fair to say that Cthulhu isn't so large that we cannot notice some subtle curvature or something. If he is non-euclidean then it would most certainly be in a very unnatural way (or at least in a way that humans can't really comprehend).

There is also the argument of principle but I'm not sure if that will fly here. The argument goes 'As humans we aren't supposed to be able to beat Cthulhu therefore we can't on principle.' Suggesting that Cthulhu can be beaten is against the author's intention to make a creature we cannot defeat. I would say however that Lovecraft could have designed the creature a little better if that was his intention; he could have made it more clear that we could not do anything more than inconvenience Cthulhu.

[Batman]

That's essentially writer's intent. You're right not many people here will accept that. This is pretty much a WYSIWIG place-what you see is what you get. If the author wanted for his foe to be invincible, he shouldn't have given us a story in which he can clearly be beaten.

[libertyjim]

That's essentially writer's intent. You're right not many people here will accept that. This is pretty much a WYSIWIG place-what you see is what you get. If the author wanted for his foe to be invincible, he shouldn't have given us a story in which he can clearly be beaten.

Well yes but that doesn't directly apply hear because it isn't clear whether Cthulhu can be beaten or not. What we know for certain is that he can be damaged but heals himself extremely quickly. He isn't explicitly beaten in the story but he isn't explicitly unbeatable either. Going back to your previous statement that all we can say is 'We haven't the foggiest,' I agree that we can't come to objective conclusions but we can certainly make judgements with the evidence at hand and based on that evidence I'm inclined to believe that Cthulhu is pretty tough, too tough to be killed with current human technology in any case.