Limitations on HPverse Immortality

[Eternal_Freedom]

I've been pondering this for a few days now. We know that Voldemort (and at least a handful of other Dark Wizards in history) used Horcruxes to stave off death. This involves splitting off a portion of your soul and leaving it in a nigh-invulnerable container kept in a safe place.

Now, ignoring the fact that Voldemort made six Horcruxes, they appear to work as advertised. If your body, which contains your "primary" soul is killed and/or destroyed, your "primary" soul remains in this mortal realm. This is similar to a ghost but more capable, able to possess people and possibly has other powers. It can be resurrected by at least one Dark ritual which, crucially, does not require the presence of your Horcrux.

Now then, my question is this. What happens if you are killed by a method other than spell fire or similar things? What if, for instance, your body (and primary soul) were thrown through that Veil of Death in the Department of Mysteries? Or was given the Dementor's Kiss (which extracts and apparently consumes your soul)? Would your Horcrux/horcruxes provide any protection from this?

[Crazedwraith]

We had a discussion on this not so long ago but there weren't many posts: here

As to the main question. Well, whatever the writer wants to get happen I guess? I see two possibilities: The Horcruxes somehow stop the primary soul's destruction. Or You regenerate out of the Horcrux's bit of soul. Like what was happening with the Diary in Chamber Of Secrets.

The Dementor idea is particularly interesting since that explicitly doesn't kill you. You can 'live' without a soul.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, I think the Dementor would do bad things to someone using Horcrux immortality to live on. Now I have a mental picture of a Dementor chewing on Tom Riddle's diary...

Speaking of which. I'm guessing that potentially, if Soul A is destroyed, resurrects as Soul A.1, and then is killed again, the next convenient Horcrux can resurrect as A.2 by possessing whomever is convenient. IIRC the Riddle diary was going to possess Ginny?

[Eternal_Freedom]

That would appear to be the case. Though if soul fragment A is destroyed and fragment A1 is used to resurrect the wizard, you'd be resurrecting him as he was at the time the Horcrux was made - the Riddle emerging from the diary appeared to be 16 or 17 and lacked no knowledge of what had happened after it was made - Ginny had to tell him by writing in it.

That of course raises the question of whether you're even resurrecting the same wizard, or in fact if a successful resurrection from a Horcrux is possible - Diary-Tom certainly possessed Ginny, and was apparently draining her life and possibly magic, whether that would have been a viable body for the soul fragment I don't know.

And of course, what happens if the wizard is "killed," soul fragment A is left wandering around as a ghost...and soul fragment A1 is resurrected from the/a Horcrux. Which one of them is the "real" dark wizard? Is their magical power split between them, making them both weaker?

[Vendetta]

The horcruxes themselves don't seem to be the direct source of the soul regeneration though, they're not respawn points and they're not consumed by the process, they're more like anchors that prevent the soul from passing on despite being unhoused.

It's only the diary because of its nature as a diary (a repository for the thoughts of the writer) that managed to produce an independent manifestation.

Presumably being anchored by a horcrux would prevent a dementor from being able to feed.

[Eternal_Freedom]

"Soul anchors" is my interpretation of horcruxes - the fact that none were involved in Voldie's resurrection points to this.

I don't see why having one or more horcruxes would stop a Dementor feeding - they're separate fragments in their own containers, there doesn't appear to be a link between them and the main fragment. Since we know that a Dementor pulls your soul from your body at least (we don't know what happens to it) I would think the primary fragment would get pulled out like any other soul - whether the horcruxes would prevent it's consumption is something I don't know.

Of course, since Voldie apparently had a deal with the Dementors it is likely not something he ever considered an issue - though that in itself is a stunningly bad call; they are creatures that can breed but cannot be killed, and he allowed them to roam muggle britain indiscriminately. That's just...so incredibly bad I can barely describe it.

[Elheru Aran]

On Dementors: Perhaps they have a fairly short natural lifespan, and if isolated without souls to feed on and emotions to leech energy/whatever from, they die off quickly enough? Certainly it's possible to repel them with the Patronus charm, so I imagine it's also possible to contain them, as they seem to be physical creatures rather than immaterial ghosts.

So now I'm picturing Voldemort teaching Dementors a 'lesson' by sticking one inside an invisible fence and letting it starve...

Anyway. Yeah, the Riddle Diary soul-fragment wasn't Voldemort proper, certainly it wouldn't have had his decades of magical knowledge and experience, but considering that apparently Voldemort was capable of making a Horcrux at that age, perhaps he was aware of the difficulty? On the other hand, he seems to have lacked enough forethought to have set up backup plans for resurrection; possessing Quirrell and Pettigrew's ritual were more or less improvised.

[Solauren]

Voldemort was overconfident, so he didn't have any quick resurrection set ups going.

However, I don't think his return in 'Goblet of Fire' was 'improvised'.

All indications was that Quirrel was a 'recent recruit'. Simply put, he was a newbie, and not a marked Death Eater. Voldemort couldn't really trust him (and probably didn't). I mean, he was the Muggle Studied teacher, and had worked for Dumbledore for years.

In that instance, would Voldemort have trusted him with a Resurrection? Probably not. The Stone on the other hand, why not? It was there.


Let's fast forward to the end of 'Prisoner of Azkaban'.
Peter is exposed as a Death Eater, and can no longer hide as a Rat in the Wizarding world. Having lived as Scabbers for 10+ years with the Weasleys, he knew Arthur worked for the Ministry of Magic. He also knew Voldemort was 'alive' so to speak. He was out of options, so he went and found Voldemort.

Between then and the first of the school year, Voldemort had a plan to be resurrected, a new body, a new Horucrux, and had contacted Barty Crotch Jr.
So in less then 3 months, he had a resurrection set up. He just had to do a complex plan to do it.
(Personally, I would have just had Barty assign essays in class, turn Potters into a Port-key, and hand it back to him, but that makes for a short novel)

That doesn't sound improvised. Especially since all information given is that Peter wasn't a particularly skilled wizard. Yet, he managed to fashion a new body for Voldemort? More then likely, it was something Voldmort had set up in case he was defeated, but the collapse of his 'loyal followers' and the nature of his destruction tossed his plans out the window. I wouldn't be surprised if he set up was known to a few people like the LeStranges (and possibly only Bellatrix) but when they got captured torturing the Longbottoms (they wanted to know what happened to Voldemort after all), that derailed those plans.

Now, for the Horucrux's.
I would say that all any of the 'total soul kill' effects work on Horucrux's, and affect all parts and the creating wizard.
I mean, those things have to have some sort of vulnerability beyond mere physical destruction. Otherwise, just find a really awesome hiding spot for your Horucux after enchanting it beyond destruction, and set up a nice (or several+) resurrection set up somewhere, and you are good to go.

So, something had to be taking horucrux wizards over the centuries, otherwise HP-verse would be swimming in them.

My bet is the Veil of Death and/or Dementors. Dementor sucks up part of the soul, and knows where the rest of it is somehow, and goes hunting the rest of it. Veil of Death, part of it goes through, and the rest are drawn into it.

That's my take on it anyway.

After all, while there is a lot of spell/effects cross-over, Harry Potter isn't Dungeons and Dragons. (Avdra Kadavra = Power Word Kill for example).

[Tribble]

To be fair to Voldemort he didn't know whether or not the Horcruxes would even work as he seemed surprised that he had survived. That might help explain why he didn't have a backup plan beforehand - merely surviving when he should have died was the backup plan. Also IIRC he did other unspecified "experiments" as well.

Of course, in a sense everyone starts off immortal as while their physical body will eventually die they have a soul which simply moves "on".

Actually this makes me wonder; if a Horcrux is destroyed is it really dead, or does it just move "on" in whatever state it was in since the physical object carrying it was destroyed? Was the chink of Voldemort we saw in limbo really him, or his Horcrux?

[Lonestar]

. Or You regenerate out of the Horcrux's bit of soul. Like what was happening with the Diary in Chamber Of Secrets.

It's worth noting that the diary contained fully one-half of Riddle's soul, which was much greater and more intact than the tiny bit of soul left in the Voldemort Lich, even if the Lich technically was the primary, original soul.

This is probably why the Diary Horcrux acted like, well, a soul. The others seemed to just have baked in defensive mechanisms. Presumably most Horcruxes that are just back up soulstone will be similarly "mostly like" a real soul.

[Tribble]

. Or You regenerate out of the Horcrux's bit of soul. Like what was happening with the Diary in Chamber Of Secrets.

It's worth noting that the diary contained fully one-half of Riddle's soul, which was much greater and more intact than the tiny bit of soul left in the Voldemort Lich, even if the Lich technically was the primary, original soul.

This is probably why the Diary Horcrux acted like, well, a soul. The others seemed to just have baked in defensive mechanisms. Presumably most Horcruxes that are just back up soulstone will be similarly "mostly like" a real soul.

Did Voldemort literally have to split his soul in half each time? IIRC what was unusual was that Voldemort was aiming for 7 Horcruxes right from the beginning while no one else had tried more than splitting their soul in two. Given that murder rips the soul apart its possible that he learned how to lop off portions rather than literally splitting the remainder in two each time. IIRC the diary became particularly powerful due to Ginny's prolonged exposure and her pouring her heart (and thereby lifeforce) into it. IIRC the locket was actively resisted and spread amongst the group (and yet despite that it still had an impact) while the others were destroyed shortly after being obtained.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've been pondering this for a few days now. We know that Voldemort (and at least a handful of other Dark Wizards in history) used Horcruxes to stave off death. This involves splitting off a portion of your soul and leaving it in a nigh-invulnerable container kept in a safe place.

Wonder who else used them.

I think it was stated somewhere that Herpo the Foul (parselmouth, same guy who came up with Basilisks) invented them, but its hard to keep straight canon from "fanon".

Now, ignoring the fact that Voldemort made six Horcruxes, they appear to work as advertised. If your body, which contains your "primary" soul is killed and/or destroyed, your "primary" soul remains in this mortal realm. This is similar to a ghost but more capable, able to possess people and possibly has other powers. It can be resurrected by at least one Dark ritual which, crucially, does not require the presence of your Horcrux.

Pretty much.

However, there are indications I believe that making Horcruxes causes physical mutation (at least past a certain number) and possibly mental instability, as well as the obvious spiritual damage to the soul which the Horcrux capitalizes on (wasn't it suggested by Harry's vision of Dumbledore during his near-death experience in Deathly Hallows that Voldemort's fate was to be stuck as a tortured soul fragment between this life and the afterlife?).

Now then, my question is this. What happens if you are killed by a method other than spell fire or similar things? What if, for instance, your body (and primary soul) were thrown through that Veil of Death in the Department of Mysteries? Or was given the Dementor's Kiss (which extracts and apparently consumes your soul)? Would your Horcrux/horcruxes provide any protection from this?

Its never stated anywhere in anything canon, to my knowledge.