Marvel Studios' Black Widow - Official Teaser Trailer.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Link.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm. I'm not thrilled by the teaser, but this movie is so long-overdue that I'll still go see it on principle.

I just wish it had been five years earlier or so.

[FaxModem1]

Looks cool, but I gotta admit, the more it resembles a Jason Bourne film, the less interested I am in watching it. Whereas seeing the cool suits and people doing martial arts in a red and black room makes me want to see it. Hopefully it'll be good.

[Gandalf]

So is she the only one in her family with an American accent? Also, because they're going back to the origin established in Ultron, I wonder if they'll address her apparently monstrous infertility?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

They're bringing in the Red Guardian, a character I hadn't heard of before today. Apparently they're going with the Alexei Shostakov version, who in the comics was Romanov's husband.

[madd0ct0r]

They're bringing in the Red Guardian, a character I hadn't heard of before today. Apparently they're going with the Alexei Shostakov version, who in the comics was Romanov's husband.

I got mixed up with the Boys and thought it was Love Sausage (Vasilii Vorishikin)



I hope it's not to dark and brooding a film. I like a bit of comedy with my fantasy.

[LaCroix]

maybe we finally find out what happened in Budapest...

[EnterpriseSovereign]

She and Hawkeye remember it very differently.

[Raw Shark]

I thought it was kind of a running joke that Black Widow doesn't get her own movie because she's pretty much the village bicycle of Marvel... Y'know, always a feature in somebody else's story.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, thankfully they did give her one. I hope its good.

I also hope it ends with an after credits scene showing her and Original Gamora alive in the Soul Stone, followed by the words "Black Widow will return", but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

[Vendetta]

I thought it was kind of a running joke that Black Widow doesn't get her own movie because she's pretty much the village bicycle of Marvel... Y'know, always a feature in somebody else's story.

Less of a running joke more of a contractual obligation with Scarlett Johansson. Her contract had her as supporting for X number of appearances.

[Raw Shark]

I thought it was kind of a running joke that Black Widow doesn't get her own movie because she's pretty much the village bicycle of Marvel... Y'know, always a feature in somebody else's story.

Less of a running joke more of a contractual obligation with Scarlett Johansson. Her contract had her as supporting for X number of appearances.

I meant in the comics. She's been involved with pretty much everybody.

[Vendetta]

I thought it was kind of a running joke that Black Widow doesn't get her own movie because she's pretty much the village bicycle of Marvel... Y'know, always a feature in somebody else's story.

Less of a running joke more of a contractual obligation with Scarlett Johansson. Her contract had her as supporting for X number of appearances.

I meant in the comics. She's been involved with pretty much everybody.

Yeah, but in the comics they've all been at each other.

Kitty Pryde seems to be on a personal mission to cross off everyone named Peter in the entire universe.

[Raw Shark]

Kitty Pryde seems to be on a personal mission to cross off everyone named Peter in the entire universe.

Yeah, well. Like most of my exes, you can see right through her...

[The Romulan Republic]

Comics writers think women are there to look sexy and be love interests (or damsels in distress). News at 11.

[Gandalf]

Comics writers think women are there to look sexy and be love interests (or damsels in distress). News at 11.

They're also there to reproduce and make more superheroes. Poor sterile monster Black Widow.

[The Romulan Republic]

Comics writers think women are there to look sexy and be love interests (or damsels in distress). News at 11.

They're also there to reproduce and make more superheroes. Poor sterile monster Black Widow.

Its been a long time since I watched it, but I actually think people make more of that single scene than they should. It came across badly, obviously, but I do not think the film's intent was to say "Natasha is a monster because she can't have children". I think the intent was to say that Natasha thinks she is a monster because of what the Red Room did to her, and her inability to have children is symbolic of that to her. Its a fine distinction, perhaps, and clearly wasn't very clearly conveyed, but I do not think the intent was to say "Women are only valuable as child-bearers", which is how its been represented.

If we want to talk Marvel sexism, I was much more disturbed by the deaths of Gamora and Natasha, or that stupid try-hard faux feminist group pose in the final battle of Endgame. Frankly, this is a case of people not distinguishing between what the character thinks in-character, and the actual message the author is trying to send. Which is silly. People don't think that Joss Whedon is a devout Christian (hint: he's an avowed atheist) because he wrote Captain America or Sheppard Book as one. So while there are many grounds on which you could fairly call Joss Whedon sexist, I don't see why he should be seen as sexist for writing Black Widow as someone with internalized misogyny and general self-loathing.

Granted, Endgame didn't help at all by having one of her reasons for suicide be that she doesn't have a family. Sure, "Hawkeye's kids need their dad" is a fairly compelling argument, but in that context it seemed a final confirmation that she was less valuable because she couldn't have children.

That's the tragedy of Natasha Romanoff. Despite everything she did to atone for her crimes, all the people she saved, all the people she loved, and who loved her, she died believing that her life was worth less, because she didn't have a family. Only she did. She had the Avengers, and she Clint's family too, which she was very much a part of.

And say what you will about Whedon (and I could write a long essay on his flaws), Whedon always recognized that the family you create is no less important or meaningful than the family you are born into.

[Gandalf]

Its been a long time since I watched it, but I actually think people make more of that single scene than they should. It came across badly, obviously, but I do not think the film's intent was to say "Natasha is a monster because she can't have children". I think the intent was to say that Natasha thinks she is a monster because of what the Red Room did to her, and her inability to have children is symbolic of that to her. Its a fine distinction, perhaps, and clearly wasn't very clearly conveyed, but I do not think the intent was to say "Women are only valuable as child-bearers", which is how its been represented.

Right. She thinks she's a monster. But what of the bit where she states that being infertile makes killing easier? In a film all about creation, she's the one who can't join in. The film also doesn't go back to rectify this towards the end, instead she seemingly gets to play babysitter to the Avengers and aunt to Hawkeye's kids.

If we want to talk Marvel sexism, I was much more disturbed by the deaths of Gamora and Natasha, or that stupid try-hard faux feminist group pose in the final battle of Endgame.

Meh. My wife absolutely loved that bit, because it's one of the few times something like that has been on screen. You and I may not have been the target market for that sequence.

Frankly, this is a case of people not distinguishing between what the character thinks in-character, and the actual message the author is trying to send. Which is silly. People don't think that Joss Whedon is a devout Christian (hint: he's an avowed atheist) because he wrote Captain America or Sheppard Book as one. So while there are many grounds on which you could fairly call Joss Whedon sexist, I don't see why he should be seen as sexist for writing Black Widow as someone with internalized misogyny and general self-loathing.

Granted, Endgame didn't help at all by having one of her reasons for suicide be that she doesn't have a family. Sure, "Hawkeye's kids need their dad" is a fairly compelling argument, but in that context it seemed a final confirmation that she was less valuable because she couldn't have children.

That's the tragedy of Natasha Romanoff. Despite everything she did to atone for her crimes, all the people she saved, all the people she loved, and who loved her, she died believing that her life was worth less, because she didn't have a family. Only she did. She had the Avengers, and she Clint's family too, which she was very much a part of.

And say what you will about Whedon (and I could write a long essay on his flaws), Whedon always recognized that the family you create is no less important or meaningful than the family you are born into.

I call Joss Whedon sexist for all manner of reasons, from writings like this to his real world actions. Dude loves rape jokes it seems, and his excuse for cheating on his wife was fucking creepy.

Also, I'd be a bigger believer in Widow's "atonement" if when called on her past actions by the government, her response wasn't "fuck you I know the Avengers."

[The Romulan Republic]

Right. She thinks she's a monster. But what of the bit where she states that being infertile makes killing easier? In a film all about creation, she's the one who can't join in. The film also doesn't go back to rectify this towards the end, instead she seemingly gets to play babysitter to the Avengers and aunt to Hawkeye's kids.

I think you could interpret that either way, either as confirmation that Natasha was only valuable if she could raise children, or as showing that she doesn't need to have biological children in order to find fulfillment or be a worthwhile person. Though I'd need to watch the film again.

Again, I would prefer to interpret it as Natasha having internalized misogyny as part of her self-loathing. We could have had a very interesting arc of her overcoming that in herself. Sadly, the opportunity was largely wasted, both in AoU and in subsequent films.

Meh. My wife absolutely loved that bit, because it's one of the few times something like that has been on screen. You and I may not have been the target market for that sequence.

If it makes people happy, I suppose there are worse things. But it struck me as the film trying to win brownie points by loudly proclaiming how feminist it was after a decade of films that were anything but.

I call Joss Whedon sexist for all manner of reasons, from writings like this to his real world actions. Dude loves rape jokes it seems, and his excuse for cheating on his wife was fucking creepy.

No argument there. Whedon's feminism is at best behind the times and at worst a ruse to shield his own bad behaviour, and so its hard to give him the benefit of the doubt on anything. I think if the Ultron thing were taken in isolation its perhaps not as bad as its made out to be, but if you put it in the larger context of his actions its harder to interpret it charitably.

Also, I'd be a bigger believer in Widow's "atonement" if when called on her past actions by the government, her response wasn't "fuck you I know the Avengers."

IIRC that was in the aftermath of the Winter Soldier catastrophe, which revealed that the government had been systematically infiltrated by literal Neo-Nazis, and then said government, after being at best utterly incompetent and at worst Nazi collaborators, were trying to judge her and Cap for the actions they took to thwart the Nazi takeover.

I'm not a big fan of the libertarian anti-government subtext running through a lot of superhero works, but I'm going to give Natasha a pass on that one.

[Gandalf]

I think you could interpret that either way, either as confirmation that Natasha was only valuable if she could raise children, or as showing that she doesn't need to have biological children in order to find fulfillment or be a worthwhile person. Though I'd need to watch the film again.

Again, I would prefer to interpret it as Natasha having internalized misogyny as part of her self-loathing. We could have had a very interesting arc of her overcoming that in herself. Sadly, the opportunity was largely wasted, both in AoU and in subsequent films.

Yeah, if more was in that film to back up that interpretation, I'd be more inclined to support it. Even if a subsequent film backtracked a bit. I agree completely that it's a waste of opportunity.

If it makes people happy, I suppose there are worse things. But it struck me as the film trying to win brownie points by loudly proclaiming how feminist it was after a decade of films that were anything but.

I just saw it as fanservice, like a lot of these films.

No argument there. Whedon's feminism is at best behind the times and at worst a ruse to shield his own bad behaviour, and so its hard to give him the benefit of the doubt on anything. I think if the Ultron thing were taken in isolation its perhaps not as bad as its made out to be, but if you put it in the larger context of his actions its harder to interpret it charitably.

Indeed. I wonder how a younger person today would interpret Whedon's early work.

IIRC that was in the aftermath of the Winter Soldier catastrophe, which revealed that the government had been systematically infiltrated by literal Neo-Nazis, and then said government, after being at best utterly incompetent and at worst Nazi collaborators, were trying to judge her and Cap for the actions they took to thwart the Nazi takeover.

I'm not a big fan of the libertarian anti-government subtext running through a lot of superhero works, but I'm going to give Natasha a pass on that one.

The exposed material that she wikileaked also exposed stuff that she had done back when she was a villain.

[FaxModem1]

A character analysis of Black Widow. Essentially, Natasha went from someone who reflected off others, sometimes to her detriment, to finally achieving her one sense of self as time went on, and dying a fully realized person:



IE, being a supporting character gave her the chance to have a full on character arc that being a prime character wouldn't have been possible with due to the lack of taking chances with leading characters(for instance, Tony's alcoholism kind of disappears after Iron Man 2).

[The_Saint]

The one disappointment I have is that it's not likely to be the R18 comedy (like Deadpool) that the comics were. As a reader of the 90s/early 2000s Black Widow comics I always thought it amusing during MCU Phase 1 when everyone was clamouring for a Blackwidow movie without realising the implications of what kind of movie it would have to be.

[Raw Shark]

Kinda sounds like New Girl. "Yeah, I'm a shameless raging slut who can easily kill you. You want to make me apologize?"

I have been told told that my taste in women carries a little baggage.

[Darth Yan]

A former friend of mine described Whedon as "trapped in the 90s" and I think that's fair. By those standards he's progressive but the world's moved on. He hasn't. And as Romulan said going after Natasha at that point would have looked more like Ass covering. In real life something like Project Insight would have had MASSIVE implications on the entire government; Watergate would have looked tame by comparison. So Othey would have gone after the person who revealed the misconduct in a fit of pique.

Back in the 80s Officer Frank Laverty testified for the defense on behalf of a kid on trial for his life. He revealed things he had discovered (such as the fact another man was the likely killer) and how he gave all his notes to his superior. The Superior was than forced to testify and admit that yeah he'd buried that and they did it as a matter of course. The judge rightfully threw the case out, but the police and prosecutors retaliated against Laverty and destroyed his career. The fact that they were forced to abandon the practice of just throwing evidence in a safe and ignoring it also irritated them

The Government in this case seemed more like the CPD retaliating against Laverty for exposing their misconduct

Natasha is also fighting to atone every day with her current actions.

[madd0ct0r]

The one disappointment I have is that it's not likely to be the R18 comedy (like Deadpool) that the comics were. As a reader of the 90s/early 2000s Black Widow comics I always thought it amusing during MCU Phase 1 when everyone was clamouring for a Blackwidow movie without realising the implications of what kind of movie it would have to be.

Could you expand on that? I didn't realise that Black Widow comics had a streak of comdey in them?