Was Durin's Bane under Saurons thumb?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-27 07:04am

Here is an interesting middle earth question. Was the Balrog which dwelt in Moria under Sauron's command, or at the very least respected Sauron's authority. A friend and I were discussing this after watching LotRs.

On one hand, how would Sauron know about Durin's Bane? The dwarves didn't know what sort of creature they unleashed and it's doubtful that any orcs would be able to identify it, beyond it being evil and far more powerful that the lot of them.

Also, if Sauron knew about the Balrog and the Balrog recognized Sauron as a higher up on Team Morgoth, he's have almost certainly put the old demon to work doing something useful, like kicking over Galadriels house.

On the other hand, it is rather odd that the Balrog permitted Sauron's orcs to live in Moria unless he thought that Sauron was the boss. After all, Sauron was Morgoth's second in command, even back before most of the Balrogs were exterminated. The Balrog may have remembered this and thus didn't go on a orc kicking spree.

Also Sauron promised Moria to the dwarves had they joined him. It would have been impossible to turn Moria over to the dwarves unless the Balrog was willing to relocate. This, however, is a very weak argument, since Sauron may well have been giving them a false promise or even that he knew full well what was waiting for the Dwarves if they returned to Moria. The Dwarves take the bait, help Sauron win the war, go back to Moria, and whoops! The Balrog evicts them. Balrogs can't possibly make good landlords.

So what do you all think?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-27 07:17am

The Balrogs were there for the bitch slapping of Melkor by the Valar, the survivors are kinda disillusioned by the whole "take over the world thing" and really don't care.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2003-06-27 07:27am

No I don't think so, but the ring might have made Sauron powerful enough to bring the Balroq back in the fold.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-27 07:34am

The Balrog was independent. It may simply have allowed the Orcs to live because it liked having things around that where both evil and afraid of it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-06-27 09:12am

IIRC, the Green Books section at The One Ring.Net have answered this question.

I think their answer was that Durin's Bane was pretty much acting independently, just being drawn by all the noise and by the power of the Ring.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-06-27 03:07pm

Here are some essays that I've found on the topic

http://tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/btaylor.html
http://tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/sauronvs.html
http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB4.html

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-06-27 06:12pm

Unfinished Tales and some of the History of Middle Earth books make the point pretty clear that it was not under Sauron's thumb.

Durin's Bane was independent. The surviving Balrogs considered themselves on a par with Sauron after Morogoth's fall, after all. They were Maiar same as him. Sauron couldn't have commanded any of them and Durin's Bane most likely hadn't cut a deal with Sauron.

It mostly used the Orcs as minions. They would be very fearful of such an age old devil. Especially since the Balrogs served as commanders of Orc in battle.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-27 07:38pm

Ah, the general concensus is that he wasn't working for Sauron.

It poses an interesting question, then, what Sauron intended to do about it, had the Balrog not have been killed by Gandalf. Sauron possessed no minions that could have possibly fought the Balrog, though the Nazgul together might be able to harrass him. Sauron himself would have to fight the Balrog, but without the Ring, Sauron wasn't at the top of his game.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-06-27 07:57pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:It poses an interesting question, then, what Sauron intended to do about it, had the Balrog not have been killed by Gandalf.

Probably work out a deal untill Sauron had no more use for him.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Sauron possessed no minions that could have possibly fought the Balrog, though the Nazgul together might be able to harrass him. Sauron himself would have to fight the Balrog, but without the Ring, Sauron wasn't at the top of his game.

On the contrary, Glorfindel felled Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, in combat. The Nazgul should be able to kill the Balrog though they'd probably take casualties doing so.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-27 08:18pm

Stormbringer wrote:On the contrary, Glorfindel felled Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, in combat. The Nazgul should be able to kill the Balrog though they'd probably take casualties doing so.

It took Gandalf to kill the Balrog in after a week long chase and a battle royale without worrying about restricting his powers. Gothmogs death was a result of a Tolkien Heroic Slaying of Vastly More Powerful Monster, a standard plot element in Tolkien stories. It's like asking how Bard the Bowman was able to slay Smaug with a single arrow when dragons of Smaugs have shrugged of hundreds of arrows being fired at them by generic archers or how Eärendil killed Anacalagon the Black with a sword, even though the dragon was so huge that when it fell, it crushed an entire mountain range.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-27 08:29pm

Why would Sauron even care? I'd just leave the Balrog alone if I were him. Its no threat, and it doesn't seem to want to leave Moria.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-06-27 08:29pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:It took Gandalf to kill the Balrog in after a week long chase and a battle royale without worrying about restricting his powers. Gothmogs death was a result of a Tolkien Heroic Slaying of Vastly More Powerful Monster, a standard plot element in Tolkien stories. It's like asking how Bard the Bowman was able to slay Smaug with a single arrow when dragons of Smaugs have shrugged of hundreds of arrows being fired at them by generic archers or how Eärendil killed Anacalagon the Black with a sword, even though the dragon was so huge that when it fell, it crushed an entire mountain range.

That's true. But you can't take the Authorial Fiat cop out.

Balrogs have been slain by vastly weaker creatures and more than just once. There was also Ecthelion slaying one or more Balrogs in defense of Turgon. It's not out of the range of possibility that the Balrog should fall to the Nazgul.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-27 08:38pm

Stormbringer wrote:That's true. But you can't take the Authorial Fiat cop out.

Cop out or not, it's how things worth in just about any mythology you can name. Being a Hero (not the capital H) is the most powerful thing in a mythology and allow humans to win fights they honestly shouldn't.

Balrogs have been slain by vastly weaker creatures and more than just once. There was also Ecthelion slaying one or more Balrogs in defense of Turgon. It's not out of the range of possibility that the Balrog should fall to the Nazgul.

Then again, the Nazgul should be weak by your logic, since the greatest of them was slain in battle by a shieldmaiden of little skill compared to many of the players in the story, along with the giant flying monster he rode upon. Alas the Heroic Slaying of Vastly More Powerful Monster is just a cop out.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-27 08:42pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:That's true. But you can't take the Authorial Fiat cop out.
Cop out or not, it's how things worth in just about any mythology you can name. Being a Hero (not the capital H) is the most powerful thing in a mythology and allow humans to win fights they honestly shouldn't.

Balrogs have been slain by vastly weaker creatures and more than just once. There was also Ecthelion slaying one or more Balrogs in defense of Turgon. It's not out of the range of possibility that the Balrog should fall to the Nazgul.
Then again, the Nazgul should be weak by your logic, since the greatest of them was slain in battle by a shieldmaiden and hobbit of little skill compared to many of the players in the story, including the crowd of warriors he just got done killing, along with the giant flying monster he rode upon. Alas the Heroic Slaying of Vastly More Powerful Monster is just a cop out.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-27 08:43pm

Damn it, that was supposed to be an edit... crap. Why the heck isn't there an edit button in this forum?

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-06-28 01:53am

Earendil was "powered" by the Silmaril when he moshed Ancalagon.

Gothmog, Durin's Bane, and Ecthelion's Balrog are the only ones mentioned that are killed I believe. And in each case the slayer died with the slayee. But the Nine, if they weren't forced to conceal themselves and were prepped for open war like they were at the end, then they could probably have killed Durin's Bane.

Without the Ring Sauron, I think, would still be able to beat Durin's Bane if he felt the Balrog was a threat. Gandalf, after turning White, stated that he would never be ready to confront Sauron directly, and still seemed to genuinely fear him, when he disregarded all of his other servants. If "powered up" Gandalf (in a way) doubted his chances against Sauron, Durin's Bane would have less hope. Sadly, in reading this it sounds like I'm resorting to A-B-C debating, but thats the way it is.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-28 02:30am

NeoGoomba wrote:Earendil was "powered" by the Silmaril when he moshed Ancalagon.

The problem is the mechanics of it. Anacalagon was the size of a mountain range. Even superpowered, Earendil could only thrust in his sword so far, which likely wouldn't even go through his skin, much less something vital. Only an act of Mythological Heroics would allow a person to scratch something that big with a sword.

Gothmog, Durin's Bane, and Ecthelion's Balrog are the only ones mentioned that are killed I believe. And in each case the slayer died with the slayee. But the Nine, if they weren't forced to conceal themselves and were prepped for open war like they were at the end, then they could probably have killed Durin's Bane.

How? Not to resort to ABC logic either, but it's doubtful that that the Nazgul together could have taken Gandalf uncloaked, and it took that much to fight the Balrog.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-06-28 10:46pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: How? Not to resort to ABC logic either, but it's doubtful that that the Nazgul together could have taken Gandalf uncloaked, and it took that much to fight the Balrog.

The thing that keeps popping up in my head is the phrase "Few even of the Wise can withstand the Nine together when united under their fell Captain". At no time are all Nine pitted against Gandalf or the company in combat. Gandalf only dueled with four or five on Weathertop, and he only drove them off, not killed them, and the Witch King wasn't there. All Nine together probably would have succeeded in killing him. Plus since all Nine are supposed to be great warriors and sorcerers in their own right, they could overwhelm the Balrog with their numerical superiority wheras Gandalf took him on mano-a-mano. Like a capship duel between either two ships of equal power, or one powerful ship against nine less powerful ships. Since the one now has to split its attention and capabilities, the nine still have only one target.

Theres a section in the Unifinished Tales which talks about how the Nazgul were diminished of sorts when in Black Rider mode. The reasoning was if they rode out in full power, they would radiate so much fear, malice, etc, that it would have been impossible for Sauron to conceal their movements for as long as he did. I don't know if that pertains to this much, but I do believe that the Nine could probably take Durins Bane.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-29 02:11am

When did Gandalf ever face the Nazgul?

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-06-29 02:17am

Howedar wrote:When did Gandalf ever face the Nazgul?

On Weathertop, before the hobbits and Strider got there

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-29 02:24am

I don't remember that in the book...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-06-29 02:41am

Howedar wrote:I don't remember that in the book...

Gandalf retells the story at Rivendell.

Bug-Eyed Earl · Post by **Bug-Eyed Earl** » 2003-06-29 03:01am

The other replies probably explained why, so I can safely say "Probably not" and leave it at that.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-29 07:30am

NeoGoomba wrote:The thing that keeps popping up in my head is the phrase "Few even of the Wise can withstand the Nine together when united under their fell Captain". At no time are all Nine pitted against Gandalf or the company in combat. Gandalf only dueled with four or five on Weathertop, and he only drove them off, not killed them, and the Witch King wasn't there. All Nine together probably would have succeeded in killing him. Plus since all Nine are supposed to be great warriors and sorcerers in their own right, they could overwhelm the Balrog with their numerical superiority wheras Gandalf took him on mano-a-mano. Like a capship duel between either two ships of equal power, or one powerful ship against nine less powerful ships. Since the one now has to split its attention and capabilities, the nine still have only one target.

The question is is if the Nazgul are on the Maiar level. Even cloaked, there were still like five of them jumping Gandalf at Weathertop, and he forced them to retreat, even though he himself was under similar restrictions as you describe below.

Theres a section in the Unifinished Tales which talks about how the Nazgul were diminished of sorts when in Black Rider mode. The reasoning was if they rode out in full power, they would radiate so much fear, malice, etc, that it would have been impossible for Sauron to conceal their movements for as long as he did. I don't know if that pertains to this much, but I do believe that the Nine could probably take Durins Bane.

Gandalf was under very similar restrictions you know, to the point that he didn't even want to magically create a small fire because he knew that in doing so it would risk reveal who he was to any evil thing nearby, and at that point, all the Istari except for maybe Saruman were trying their damnedest not to be indentified as anything other than old men with magic tricks. That's why Gandalf cultivated a reputation as being a travelling old conjurer who was skilled with smoke and mirrors and knowledgable but wasn't someone of any real power. The only real time he every fought with anything close to his real power was on top of Silvertine against Durin's Bane, and that wrecked the mountain. You could also argue that he was also being open about his identity at the Seige of Minas Tirith, when he was shooting beams of light at the Nazgul and counteracting the fear and madness they were inflicting upon the city. Of all the people in the city, he was the only one that would face the Witch King directly without fear, and at that point, ole daddy Angmar most certainly was out of Black Rider mode. They had no power on him, and I doubt they'd have much more of an effect on a Balrog, who kind of trumps them in the magical evil department. The only other person to also do this was Eowyn, at that was a massive act of plot.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-06-29 02:32pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Gandalf was under very similar restrictions you know, to the point that he didn't even want to magically create a small fire because he knew that in doing so it would risk reveal who he was to any evil thing nearby, and at that point, all the Istari except for maybe Saruman were trying their damnedest not to be indentified as anything other than old men with magic tricks.

Only when the Company set out from Rivendell did Gandalf conceal himself like the Nazgul did, so Sauron's spies wouldn't notice them.

From miles away Frodo and Strider could see the blasts of Gandalf's magic on Weathertop, so he must not have cared about stealth then, especially knowing that he would have attracted the other Ringwraiths, which was why he departed and didn't wait to take them all on. If he wanted to maintain stealth he could have simply evaded all of them, since he had Shadowfax with him.

I was always under the impression that the Istari were restricted by the Valar not in the displays of power, but in dominating Men by force of their power. They had the power to control Men, but were forced to use them like chess pieces. Gandalf the White was just allowed more liberty on that matter. Thats just my take on that though, could be wrong.