Foot Race, Kenshin vs Jedi & could Kenshin block blaster

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » 2003-07-31 04:47am

Who'd win in a foot race?

I tried to find the old page that had Obiwans speed calc from Ep1. But it was deleted. But basiclly it was he supposively moved 1meter in 0.033 (due to frame rates, it couldn't have been any smaller) seconds right?

While when Kenshin jumped jump, he crossed about his height in about 0.033 seconds, or roughly 1.6 meters. But that was a jump, not running. Although running is coorelated with jumping. I have no idea how it works out. Though couldn't in theory a person leap forward at that speed, and when he lands just do the same? Thus would be similar to running, but with extremely long strides.

So unless I made a mistake with Yoda's or Kenshins calcs, Kenshin should be slightly faster.

Next (since this is coorelated with Kenshins speed, I figured that I might as well include it in this topic, so others aren't flipping back and forth between two topics) is if Kenshin could block blasters.

First piece of data used to do this is that Kenshin saw the order of the attacks from the kuzu ryu sen. So in order to do this, we much figure out how long it took to execute the kuzu ryu sen. Or rather, the least amount of running space needed to do so.

Which comes to the second piece of data, which is that Kenshin performed the attack from about 1 meter away. Since the kuzu ryu sen uses running and multi arm swinging, we need the calcs from Kenshins running (which could be approximated from the topic above). So lets do that calc.

Kenshin jumped up a little past his height in about 0.033 seconds (ie his feet past where his head was before he jumped). He's about 5'4", or aroundly 5.33(repeated) feet. Or 1.61(repeated) meters. So he accelerated to 1.61 meters/0.033 seconds^2, or 1.61 meters in 0.001089 seconds

Figuring that, the approximate time for him to accelerate past 1 meter (distance shown that he can still do the kuzu ryu sen-althought the size limit for the kuzu ryu sen may be even smaller since we don't have any data that says otherwise) would be about 0.0006738 seconds. Which means that all nine hits have to be done before that time, hence that gave at most 0.0006738 seconds for the 9 cut attack to occur. Or (assuming that each time for each cut was about equal) 0.00007486 seconds to start to finish per attack.

Kenshin was able to read this attack so that he could still see the order. That is see each attack done. Hence that means that he could at least detect an attack in 0.00007486 seconds (at most, he may still be able to di even better, but was never faced with such a situation). Given that, he would also have to swing his sword in the right direction to block. Given the speed of each attack of the kuzu ryu sen, we're given with the approximate time needed to go into the blocking stance. Which is also 0.00007486 seconds. Thus from recognizing the attack to going into a defensive posture should only take him 0.00014973 seconds.

Which would mean that in order for a blaster gun to overwhelm him, it'd need to fire more than 6678 blaster shots a second, or 24042073 shots an hour.

By which we gather that Kenshin shouldn't have any trouble between adjusting between blaster shot, as long as the timing between each shot is greater than or equal to 0.00014973 seconds (and that the shots are slow enough for him to block). Which brings up the next point. At what speed of blast can Kenshin handle. Factors in this, depend on how far away the shot is, and the speed of the shot. But to form some conformity,we'll look into the speed of the blast that he could handle from 1 meter away.

From 1 meter away, the blast will have to travel that distance in less than 0.00014973 seconds to stand a chance at hitting Kenshin. Or 1meter /0.00014973 seconds. Or similarly to the number of bullets Kenshin could handle in a second, 6678 meters per second. In which case, as far as evidence shows, Kenshin could at least block an object going this fast. And til new evidence shows up which debunks my work so to his reaction time, and hand speed, these numbers stand, and in fact could only get better.

Ways for these numbers to get better, is to look closer at the scene where Kenshin does the Kuzu Ryu sen against Soujirou. Given that Kenshins sword was about a meter long (an average length of katana's and katanalike swords), he obviously would have had to complete all nine attacks before the spacing between him and his opponent got too small. Also noticing that in the anime, when Hiko and Kenshin finished trading kuzu ryu sens, the arm swings stopped when they were about a 6-10 inches apart. This is nothing more than an educated guess from the vantage of the view point given. Thus would decrease the amount of time needed to execute all nine attacks, and thus each individual attack which Kenshin could preceive.

Also when you take into account the Hiten Mitsurugi style to read the opponent to predict the attack, this cuts down on the reaction time even more. And would thus lead to better numbers, which would lead to him being able to handle faster gun fire, and more rapid shots.

So given this, is there still doubt that either Kenshin or his master (Hiko) could block blaster shots from say Star Wars? Or Modern machine gun fire?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-07-31 05:20am

Only thing I want to say is that the Hiten Mitsurugi dealt mainly with predicting moves in swordfights. Kenshin's had no experience against blaster users, even if he might adapt quickly.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-31 06:35am

Shinova wrote:Only thing I want to say is that the Hiten Mitsurugi dealt mainly with predicting moves in swordfights. Kenshin's had no experience against blaster users, even if he might adapt quickly.

I think this depends on the speed of the blaster bolt. Early in the series, Kenshin was barely able to block a bullet with his sakabatou.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-07-31 11:41am

Well Kenshin has shown what can only be called pre-cog before. Example, at least in manga, Sanosuke drags Kenshin off to a gambling parlor and Kenshin uses to Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu to predict how the dice are going to land, meanwhile complaining to Sanosuke what an abuse of his style it is.

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-07-31 12:12pm

Assuming that Kenshin was facing the gunman, at a decent range, and had paying attention, while going all out, completely unlike the one time he blocked a bullet in his own series? If we assume that his sword can survive blasterfire if it can't already, then Kenshin casually tracks the gunner's (or gunners') arms, sights and trigger finger and gets his blade in between every shot for a good long time, unless he's completly overwhelmed by numbers, since hand held blasters don't have a rate of fire even remotely comparable to modern automatic weapons.

Against a modern machine gun, he's screwed, unless he starts dodging gunfire (not outrunning individual bullets, just getting out of the way of where the guy is aiming), cause they have speed comparable to his own weapon, and a rate of fire too fast for him to keep up with. According to Hiko, their full speed techniques are random, though Kenshin has shown that he can use it with precision at least for the first shot (the bullet blocking), and can make himself hit 9 spots in a set pattern. OTOH, he wasn't even able to tell that he'd missed Soujirou with the Kuzu Ryu Sen until after Soujirou whacked him, so he can't actually percieve at those speeds for the entire time. Combine this with the fact that you don't have to pull the trigger for each bullet on an uzi or a machine gun, then Kenshin loses a valuable tell for when a bullet is gonna fire, so he'll probably only be able to block one or two shots before the rate of fire causes his untimely ventilation.

In a foot race? 99.9999999% of the stuff that Kenshin has been shown doing completly blows away 99.9999999% of the stuff that Jedi have ever even began to approach. Kenshin finishes the race, runs back to the starting line, has a nice cup of tea, and then runs over the Jedi 1 meter before finish line, even before the caffiene buzz hits him.

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-07-31 12:15pm

Minor nitpick: The dice trick doesn't seem to be precog, so much as it is him tracking the motion of the dice with his ears, since he was closing his eyes and focusing when he did it.

OTOH, he seems to have some sort of plot driven, midrange, spiritual precog. He started dreaming about the Shinsengumi and Saitou on the day that Saitou had come to the dojo, and Tomoe's spirit told him that Kaoru was still alive (the entire point of that ghost was that it wasn't Tomoe's actual soul, just the image of Tomoe in his own heart, just like Enishi's, if I understood it). Misao had the same thing happen to her with Hannya's ghost, regarding Aoshi's redemption, though in that case, it might actually have been the real deal, since it talked about returning to heaven, IIRC.

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » 2003-08-01 12:52am

The Drunkard Kid wrote: Against a modern machine gun, he's screwed, unless he starts dodging gunfire (not outrunning individual bullets, just getting out of the way of where the guy is aiming), cause they have speed comparable to his own weapon, and a rate of fire too fast for him to keep up with. According to Hiko, their full speed techniques are random, though Kenshin has shown that he can use it with precision at least for the first shot (the bullet blocking), and can make himself hit 9 spots in a set pattern. OTOH, he wasn't even able to tell that he'd missed Soujirou with the Kuzu Ryu Sen until after Soujirou whacked him, so he can't actually percieve at those speeds for the entire time.

I have to disagree. As I calcuated, he should be able to preceive the location of each bullet, and move his weapon in the way of the said bullets.

For Soujirou, ever think that with Soujirous speed, that at the last minute, with timing less than 0.00007486 seconds got around to Kenshins back. Then considering that after he finished the attack, Kenshin wasn't even looking at Soujirou. He was gazing downward. Because I supposed that Kenshin assumed that the kzu ryu sen would hit, and didn't pay much attention to Soujirou... which admitively is out of character for Kenshin. But how else would you explain his gazing as if the fight was over.

Combine this with the fact that you don't have to pull the trigger for each bullet on an uzi or a machine gun, then Kenshin loses a valuable tell for when a bullet is gonna fire, so he'll probably only be able to block one or two shots before the rate of fire causes his untimely ventilation.

I'm failing to understand this? He can read the path of the bullet before it fires, can preceive the bullet in flight to further help his prediction of the bullet direction, and can move his weapon in the said path. Yet you think he won't be able to do so?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-08-01 09:35am

Before I think of either HoS or closing this topic because it's nothing more then a repeat of your former, I'll be sporting.

You mind actually providing clips or pictures?

And don't go spewing links...provide actually pictures so OTHERS can analyze.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-08-01 10:42am

Personally I don't know where you could get the clip but I suggest the incident where a drop of water falls and Kenshin and Soujiro attack each other. I've seen the incident used effectively in DMs concerning Kenshin before and its something quantifiable.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-08-01 01:13pm

Ghost Rider wrote: And don't go spewing links...provide actually pictures so OTHERS can analyze.

Yeah, because Wong already has pictures from TPM showing how fast Jedi can haul ass.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-08-01 02:09pm

Did he previously link to thissite

Just out of curiosity.

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » 2003-08-01 03:50pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Before I think of either HoS or closing this topic because it's nothing more then a repeat of your former, I'll be sporting.

You mind actually providing clips or pictures?

And don't go spewing links...provide actually pictures so OTHERS can analyze.

Did you even look at the links in the previous topic? I would assume not, as those links where to pictures. Where one could analyze the given information.

But fine, if you want bandwidth to be increased, here are the pictures.

And the scene in the manga where Soujirou and Kenshin were a about a meter apart when Kenshin did the Kuzu Ryu Sen

Also consider another fact that my calculations did NOT take into account that Soujirou began running at him with Shukuchi (2 steps shy) Which was a speed greater than Kenshin's aka greater than 1484 meters per sec^2. So you have two people going at least 1484 meters per second^2 towards each other. And one of them does the kuzu ryu sen, from a meter apart. Which would mean that he did all nine attacks in even less time. Assuming that they started at the same time (though Soujirou did start first, it is unknown how much time past between him starting and then Kenshin doing the Kuzu Ryu Sen, so to make it easiler, though this gives us a higher number in terms of time, it gives us a high bound of the time limit of the kuzu ryu sen), they meet in about .5 meter.

So Kenshin had at most 0.0003369 seconds to do all nine attacks. Or 0.00003743 for each attack. And again thats not even considering that at some point it becomes awkward to do the 9 attacks, due to closeness to the enemy. And judging from before, all nine attacks are completed by about the time they were 6 inches apart. Which means he had to do all nine attacks in 0.34848 meters. Or in 0.0002348 seconds, or each attack in 0.000026 seconds.

Thus he is able to preceive an attack in 0.000026 seconds, and able to get to the guard in an additional 0.000026 seconds. Or 0.000052 seconds for the total of recognizing and getting to the guard position.

So there are the facts.

Kenshin accelerated to 1484 meters/sec^2.
Kenshin is able to preceive an attack in 0.000026 seconds.
Kenshin is able to get to a guard or counter attack in 0.000026 seconds.
Kenshin can change his guard quickly enough (and preceive the gun fire) to block 19631 shots a second.

1 shot/0.000052sec = x/1 sec
And for a shot to be too fast for Kenshin to react to would have to travel faster 19631 meters a second.
1 meter/0.000052 sec = x meter/1 sec

Assuming that the item he chooses to block the blaster or bullets with, can withstand the punishment from blocking the blaster/bullets.

BTW how long was Obiwans light saber in Ep1. As if its shorter than a meter, then its obvious that they did not travel 1 meter in 0.033 seconds. Plus Obiwan was faded, but he wasn't truely invisible. One could easily pick out their bodies if they just looked at the frames (if you were to move the frames back and forth, its easier to see where Obiwans body was). Where in the frame where they were first "invisible" the lightsaber was just barely behind Obiwans back(starting point of the blade), and in the next frame, the beginning of the blade was ahead of Obiwans body. For proof, look at the brownish mass that moves from frame 1 to frame 2.

This is why using the lightsaber as a measuring tool for how far they went in 0.033 seconds is faulty. The arm moves when running.

On a side note, rather than close the so called thread necromancy, why not just prune all topics that haven't been responded to in about a week? Wouldn't that solve the so called Thread Necromancy problem?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-08-01 07:13pm

Your point?

Oh wait the manga is supposed to show incalculable speed because of what again?

Plus not even going to gloss over your bullshit that Jedi are limit to frames persecond because that alone is enough to make one wonder if you grasp Suspension of disbelief.

So...he jumps high...approximately 3 m/s...maybe a bit less.

Your point?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-08-01 07:42pm

FOG3 wrote:Did he previously link to thissite Just out of curiosity.

Yeah, an amazing pile of tripe....

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-08-01 09:25pm

Okay 50 G doesn't just break suspension of disbelief it slams a Semi full of High Explosives into it. At 50 G you're saying Obi-wan just broke the Sound barrier in .608 seconds! Yeah right

.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-02 12:48am

FOG3 wrote:Okay 50 G doesn't just break suspension of disbelief it slams a Semi full of High Explosives into it. At 50 G you're saying Obi-wan just broke the Sound barrier in .608 seconds! Yeah right .

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon did not accelerate to the full 50-100 gravities. They actually only accelerated for a small fraction of a second, whereas the 50-100 gravities assumes a FULL second of acceleration. I believe Mike only estimated the top speed in taht instance at about 20-30 meters per second (which is quite reasonable since they basically made it down that long hallway in a matter of seconds).

Had they accelerated for a full second, things would have looked/been much different (but it doesnt mean they DIDN'T.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-02 12:49am

slight correction: by saying "they did not accelerate to the full 50-100 gravities" - I was indicating they were not accelerating for a full second's worth of time (you might recall one "gravity" is about 9.8 m/s^2)

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » 2003-08-02 03:05am

Ghost Rider wrote:Your point?

Oh wait the manga is supposed to show incalculable speed because of what again?

Funny, cuz I did calcuate the speed.

Plus not even going to gloss over your bullshit that Jedi are limit to frames persecond because that alone is enough to make one wonder if you grasp Suspension of disbelief.

.... what is your point? 1st frame, they're semi invisible, with the beginning of the lightsaber around Obiwans back. Very next frame of the movie, Obiwans moved around about 2 feet, but with his arm moving back and forth, it appears as though the lightsaber traveled a meter (or rather just shy of it).

Are they limited to fps? Heck no. But the proof is still there, staring at us in the face. in 0.033-0.034 they traveled about 2 feet. What with this don't you understand.

So...he jumps high...approximately 3 m/s...maybe a bit less.

Forgetting that it wasn't 1 sec? There was a 0.033 sec between frame 1 and 2, and 0.034 between frames 2 and 3. Where he goes past 3 meters in the second set of 2 frames, aka in 0.034 seconds.

Your point?

That since running speed is coorelated with jumping speed, and at the beginning of a sprint, people initally jump. Hence Kenshin is fast to put it bluntly.

Yeah, because Wong already has pictures from TPM showing how fast Jedi can haul ass.

I tried posting links to the images rather than directly posting the images because I know that there are still a lot of people on dail up, that wouldn't want to wait for 3 rather large pictures to display. But hey, if thats what you all want, I gave ya the pics. So don't complain that they slowed the site down.

Personally I don't know where you could get the clip but I suggest the incident where a drop of water falls and Kenshin and Soujiro attack each other. I've seen the incident used effectively in DMs concerning Kenshin before and its something quantifiable.

I could easily create a clip. Infact I did, but I deleted it as there was a site that already had it. Also in the anime they slowed down the charging of the two people so we could see it and make it seem more dramatic. Which I just know some people on here would say that bullshit about oh, they didn't move so fast, since it took a second for the sweat drop to fall, and then before it hits the ground, they showed 5 seconds of footage of them running towards eachother, yet the drop didn't hit the ground. So that doesn't make any sense, so lets throw it out. But that site you linked to pretty much explains it. Yet people say that its utter garbage, yet don't supply any reasoning as to why.

Minor nitpick: The dice trick doesn't seem to be precog, so much as it is him tracking the motion of the dice with his ears, since he was closing his eyes and focusing when he did it.

hmm, well Kenshin must have damn good ears, to know how the dice were before, then being able to tell exactly how the dice bounced off of the wall of the cup as well as eachother to accurately predict whether or not it was a good roll. Just think about it, thats almost a daredevil deat.

Only thing I want to say is that the Hiten Mitsurugi dealt mainly with predicting moves in swordfights. Kenshin's had no experience against blaster users, even if he might adapt quickly.

He did block a bullet from behind, and in the anime he effortlessly dodged shots from a gatling gun (notice that due to how the bullets were feed into the barrel of the gun, and that you could turn it on an axis, it was far superior to the gatling guns of that day). He also ran through a group of hired gun men on his way to Kanryu's estate.

He may not have experience with blasters, but he is experienced with guns of his era, and those slightly above his era. The only thing he may have trouble with at the beginning is adapting to the speed of the blaster bolt. But given my calcuations, he should adapt quickly.

Also, what were Mikes Calcs on the Jedi's speed again? I recall that he some how got them accelerating at 1277 m/s^2. But no matter what I try I can't seem to reproduce those numbers. How'd he get those?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-02 03:23am

I repeat: we do NOT see them moving at supersonic or hypersonic speeds in those instances (this applies to the Kenshin calc as well as the TPM calc) becaue they are only accelerating for a FRACTION OF A FUCKING SECOND. They are not moving at the full acceleration value.

I should note that the lack of sonic booms would also that unless Kenshin generated sonic booms and some fairly substantial heat from atmospheric friction in the manga, he was clearly moving at subsonic speeds in the latter example (hint: you can't arbitrarily apply the first calc you did to the second unless it fits the facts. IE no sonic booms or friction, no full accel.)

I consider it rather unlikely he is moving at supersonic (much less anything approaching or exceeding hypersonic).

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » 2003-08-02 03:43am

ok, now I think I agree with what your saying.

While the Jedi accelerated for that 1 frame and then stopped accelerating. Kenshin did at least accelerate for twice as long as the Jedi (as seen in the last two pictures). And he was off the screen before we could know for sure at one time he stopped accelerating.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-02 04:02am

ShinjiGohan wrote:ok, now I think I agree with what your saying.

While the Jedi accelerated for that 1 frame and then stopped accelerating. Kenshin did at least accelerate for twice as long as the Jedi (as seen in the last two pictures). And he was off the screen before we could know for sure at one time he stopped accelerating.

Er, what?

Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon topped out at 20-30 M/s roughly because tahts the fastest they were moving (they covered 1 meter in about .04 seconds, - because Mike is using theatrical framerates which differ from the 30 fps NTSC - which averages out to about 25 m/s)

Kenshin's velocity works out much the same way. If he covers 2 meters in .033 seconds (which is 1/30th a frame - NTSC) he's moving at ~61 meters per second)

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-08-02 04:12am

One quick question: Can people of Kenshin-verse kill inertia?

ShinjiGohan · Post by **ShinjiGohan** » 2003-08-02 04:12am

Actually from shown speed. Kenshin was going at about 97.94 meters/sec before he left the screen.

What I was trying to say is that we don't know how much longer Kenshin accelerated after he left the screen. As after the frame where he leaves the screen, it pans to Hiko, where he waits for a second or two, then slightly bends his knees, and then he jumps.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-02 04:16am

You can't "kill" inertia any more than you can kill momentum:

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... ch=inertia

2. resistance to change: the property of a body by which it remains at rest or continues moving in a straight line unless acted upon by a directional force

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... h=momentum

3. physics measure of movement: a quantity that expresses the motion of a body and its resistance to slowing down. It is equal to the product of the body’s mass and velocity.

Please tell me noone requires an explanation of momentum and inertia.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-02 04:18am

ShinjiGohan wrote:Actually from shown speed. Kenshin was going at about 97.94 meters/sec before he left the screen.

Whatever. It was a hypothetical example.

What I was trying to say is that we don't know how much longer Kenshin accelerated after he left the screen. As after the frame where he leaves the screen, it pans to Hiko, where he waits for a second or two, then slightly bends his knees, and then he jumps.

Thats fine, but it doesnt affect anything much. We can limit it by whether or not he went supersonic or remained subsonic though. So unless you get shockwaves, he's not moving faster than around 330 m/s roughly.