paladins

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-08-01 05:26am

do you think some paladins should be the iron fist of justice, with no moral qualms about executing evil enemies? I had a long argument with my gm about that (I wanted to play an inquisitor style paladin - even god has to take out the trash every now and then) but he didnt go for it.

any thoughts?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-01 07:56am

Hey, if I were to play a paladin, I'd rather play them as some sort of "iron fist of justice" than those sword-wielding mormon missionaries they often end up as.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-08-01 08:29am

While I wouldn't go so far as to say Paladins should be played that way, I don't see why they can't.

IMHO, the 'Iron Fist Of Justice', the sword-wielding mormon missionary

and the Prince Valiant carbon-copy are all viable Paladin personas.
Of course, there could be valid reasons why any of those aren't applicable in a given gaming environment. Without knowing why your GM opposes your concept of Paladin I can't really say much one way or the other.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-08-01 09:07am

he has a very set peice world, and wants the story to go *exactly* the way he says. its a meh.

and, if I have holy powers to *slay evil* then I want to *slay evil*. . . not allow 200 newly captured prisoners to go, cuz its against my morals to kill them.

particularly when the bastards could slaughter my party, given a second chance.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-08-01 09:13am

a Paladin is LAWFUL GOOD. What that means is they follow the law for the good of others. Vigilanteism is NOT what a paladin does... unless the god/goddess he/she is a paladin of is of vigilanteism. A paladin is a fighter for justice AND religion. You must remember that as well. A paladin cannot cast his spells (ie. lay on hands) without guidance from a god/goddess.

I have played several very successful paladins in my time. And as far as your GM is concerned, it is his world. He can do/say as he pleases. NEVER fuck with the GM for your character is weak and tastes good dipped in chocolate.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-08-01 09:41am

Enforcer Talen wrote: and, if I have holy powers to *slay evil* then I want to *slay evil*. . . not allow 200 newly captured prisoners to go, cuz its against my morals to kill them.

particularly when the bastards could slaughter my party, given a second chance.

Except at least if wer're talking D&D Paladins here, that goes against the 'lawful' part of their nature. Mercilessly killing your enemies in battle is one thing, murdering helpless POWs is quite another.
Paladins represent GOOD (well, usually). BUT they also represent LAW and JUSTICE. Enemies or not, evil or not, those POWs have certain rights. A Paladin need not have any qualms seeing every last one of them executed, but he MUST make sure they get a fair trial.

Oh, and Kelly, I find the image of a 6'8'' warrior, clad in steel head to toe, dipped in chacolate mildly disturbing. Not List-quality disturbing, but disturbing.
Especially since chances are sometime, somewhere, there is a campaign where it happened...

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-01 10:12am

Kelly Antilles wrote:a Paladin is LAWFUL GOOD. What that means is they follow the law for the good of others. Vigilanteism is NOT what a paladin does... unless the god/goddess he/she is a paladin of is of vigilanteism. A paladin is a fighter for justice AND religion. You must remember that as well. A paladin cannot cast his spells (ie. lay on hands) without guidance from a god/goddess.

This does not mean the paladin can't be relentlessly fierce against the unrepentantly evil.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-01 12:45pm

It depends entirely on the setting. In some places, Paladins can afford to be all spiffy and nice. However, in some places(Particularly the D&D realms of Planescape and Ravenloft), the options of being nice and kind quickly vanish. There are inquisitor style Paladins out there.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-01 12:53pm

SirNitram wrote:It depends entirely on the setting. In some places, Paladins can afford to be all spiffy and nice. However, in some places(Particularly the D&D realms of Planescape and Ravenloft), the options of being nice and kind quickly vanish. There are inquisitor style Paladins out there.

And in the Warhammer World, Inquisitor-Style would be the only way that's entertaining.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-08-01 01:09pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote: This does not mean the paladin can't be relentlessly fierce against the unrepentantly evil.

No, it doesn't mean that.

And as Nitram pointed out, it depends on the world as well. My favorite paladin pc was in Ravenloft. It's hard to stay LG in such a dark place, especially surrounded by CG and CN pcs.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-08-01 01:11pm

You mean, Diablo II style paladin, who kicks ass, takes names, and does a bit of healing on the side?

Hells yes.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-01 01:20pm

Kelly Antilles wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote: This does not mean the paladin can't be relentlessly fierce against the unrepentantly evil.
No, it doesn't mean that.

And as Nitram pointed out, it depends on the world as well. My favorite paladin pc was in Ravenloft. It's hard to stay LG in such a dark place, especially surrounded by CG and CN pcs.

There's also the fact you have to go about it another way. It is literally impossible to be a 'Kill the evil for the glory of good!' paladin, because everywhere around you is evil. It outnumbers you, outguns you, and outsmarts you.

Throw in the fact the Dark Powers, the mysterious entities which control Ravenloft, seem to have a fetish for Paladins, and it gets bad. And, as one of my parties found out, there's nothing the fiends trapped in Ravenloft love more than corrupting a Paladin...

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-08-01 01:23pm

SirNitram wrote: There's also the fact you have to go about it another way. It is literally impossible to be a 'Kill the evil for the glory of good!' paladin, because everywhere around you is evil. It outnumbers you, outguns you, and outsmarts you.

Throw in the fact the Dark Powers, the mysterious entities which control Ravenloft, seem to have a fetish for Paladins, and it gets bad. And, as one of my parties found out, there's nothing the fiends trapped in Ravenloft love more than corrupting a Paladin...

I love Ravenloft.

I had a serious beacon to the powers that be. Not only was *I* lawful good, I had a lawful good mount that was in a talisman. Then you add the lawful good sword I ended up with... Whee! Evil found me with no problems.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-01 01:37pm

It would be interesting to see a campaign run in Three Kingdoms China. Though of course you'd have to tone down the magic considerably (albeit not totally disallow it, if going off of Romance of the Three Kingdoms)--but I understand there are some worlds where the power is limited, so that isn't impossible.

...Imagine for a moment the place where the theories of Sun-Tzu were aggressively put into practice by a bunch of scheming, amoral nobles to try and either preserve a dying Empire, or carve chunks out of it. A place where morality is so totally different from our own that when a starving hero arrived at a huntsman's cottage and the huntsman had no food for him, the huntsman slew his wife and boiled her arm for the hero. The hero got suspicious of the taste of the meat and went outside and found the corpse. Stunned by the magnitude of the sacrifice, he memorialized the chief minister that the huntsman be rewarded with gold for such a show of loyalty to one of the Imperial officers, which was done (this is the hero of a central epic to Chinese culture, mind you, and whom was probably considered the equivlant of Lawful Good by Confucianism).

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-01 01:58pm

I've always played Paladins exclusively. I love em. There's something about being the goody goody in a group of very gray characters that appeals to me. My favroite twist on the paladins characters I played was playing an older paladin who had been around the block a couple of times. The group had a younger paladin, raw fresh faced and full of zeal. He cozied up to me right away since he figured he had a lot to learn from me and was quickly horrified at my "practicality."

My paladin was still a good guy but he'd be damned to go into a dark dank cavern without knowing why we were going in there and what we were facing. It was a cool way of showng what a paladin could grow into with the right experience. Then there were the endless arguments of why we had a thief in the group and wasn't it our duty to stop him from thieving to which my paladin always responded that the skills of thieving could always be bent towards the motives of good under the right influences and it was better to put up with venial evil in the short term and profit from the skills when it really mattered like picking the lock of the corrupt Lich's secret strong box.

It was a great RP experience because it really became a mentor/mentee relationship. Ahh...I miss those days.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-08-01 02:25pm

then there are Paladins for other groups *VEG* imagine an Arab Paladin and a Christian Paladin going at it in the D+D RP

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-08-01 03:36pm

You can quite happily ne a 'take-no-prisoners' smite the evil kind of paladin.

As long as you uphold the law and the tenets of whichever god you choose.

See Keldorn in BG2 for details, religious intolerance with a big fucking sword.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-01 03:54pm

There are many ways to play a Paladin, many more than alot expect. Just because you're being Lawful Good doesn't mean you can't have a very complicated character.

Some examples...

Born Into Paladinhood: The Noble's Heir. Now, Paladins tithe like crazy, but they tend to accumulate money, land, and titles. They often find themselves wed to noblewomen they've saved, or with grateful princesses hanging off them. When they settle down and have a child, they raise they with the ideals of good. But when the child takes up the family class and goes out, the world isn't the simplistic world they grew up in. Very traditional in some ways, but complicated as they are 'upper class' and slummin' it as an adventurer.

Earned Paladinhood: Evil reformed. Perhaps you didn't always do the right thing. That's how you got into this mess. Now you've been given a crash course in your new role, and have a deity looking over your shoulder. Will you be able to walk away from your old life, or will it pull you back? Ideally a multiclass character, perhaps a few levels of Rogue and one of Paladin at the start. Emphasis on temptation big.

Paladinhood thrust upon you: The Reluctant Paladin. Much like Evil Reformed in basics. Maybe your fledgling Sorcery got out of hand. Maybe your half-fiend nature got discovered. Maybe you were the only one left in the town who could hold a sword. Whatever it was, now you're knee deep in trouble; will you embrace your role as savior, or will you turn back to what you once were?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-08-01 04:07pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:he has a very set peice world, and wants the story to go *exactly* the way he says. its a meh.

Exactly the way he says as in what he says goes period, (Which I agree with him on and that makes perfect sense).

Or do you mean, the storyline is going to go this way, and no other way? (Which is absolutly preposterous)

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-08-01 04:25pm

I'm surprised no one else has recommended a reading of The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon, yet. I don't think you're likely to see a more accurate depiction of Paladin behavior.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-08-01 04:50pm

Ted C wrote:I'm surprised no one else has recommended a reading of The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon, yet. I don't think you're likely to see a more accurate depiction of Paladin behavior.

Eeeeek! I totally forgot about it!

Yes, I highly recommend this, for it shows both the good and bad sides of Paladin-hood, with all the rewards and all the woes.

And she kicks Major Ass!!!

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-01 05:05pm

I like playing Paladins. I was a "badass Paladin" once, that was fun. I upheld law and justice 'expediently'. I almost beat our rogue to death for stealing from me. Things got awkward after that.

Most fun was a clumsy Paladin. I had a Dex of 7. I did all my combat mounted, because my unmounted penalties were so bad.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-08-01 08:23pm

Oye...There are more than one type of paladin you know, saying 'paladin' is like saying Tyr and Kelemvor are the same god...they aren't...Tyr..favours justice...where as Kelemvor favours smiting down evil where'er it appears..(I think...from what I can remember)

The ideals of any paladin differs from person to person...yes...but..it also depends on the God they follow...

For example.

Kelemvor - Lord of the dead, Judge of the damned.
Torm - The Loyal Fury (big on honour and duty)

You cannot seriously expect the paladins of those gods to follow the same code...they would have one to suit their god. So no....not all paladins are nessicarily 'nice' people....or gallants...

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-08-01 09:35pm

Kelly Antilles wrote: I have played several very successful paladins in my time. And as far as your GM is concerned, it is his world. He can do/say as he pleases. NEVER fuck with the GM for your character is weak and tastes good dipped in chocolate.

the last game I played with him, an intense combat scenario, none of us gained levels. half the party died, and I *lost* 3 levels.

you'll note I dont play with him anymore. fun guy, lousy gm.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-08-01 09:36pm

Captain_Cyran wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:he has a very set peice world, and wants the story to go *exactly* the way he says. its a meh.
Exactly the way he says as in what he says goes period, (Which I agree with him on and that makes perfect sense).

Or do you mean, the storyline is going to go this way, and no other way? (Which is absolutly preposterous)

the second.