Destroying the One Ring

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-08-07 07:38am

Could the One Ring really be destroyed by applying enough heat to it?

First, I looked up the temperature of lava. The hottest I could find are the Hawaiian volcanos, with lava temperatures around 1,160 degrees C. The range for a volcano such as Mount St. Helens is lower, around 900-1000 degrees C. An Iron Age bloomery can manage temperatures from 800-1500 degrees C. We've seen iron weapons and armor in use in Middle Earth, therefore I feel it a safe assumption that they have such smelteries. Unless Mount Doom is abnormally hot, its magma should fall within the range of temperatures an Iron Age smelter is capable of producing.

As supporting evidence I would point to the scene where Gandalf puts the ring into the fire. Some rise in temperature would be expected from this, yet when the ring is pulled out of the fire and placed directly into Frodo's hand it is "quite cool." The appearance of lettering on the ring is the sole change caused by it's exposure to heat in this instance.

I got the volcano data here and the bloomery data here

Note: I just moved and my Lord of the Rings novels are in a box somewhere. I'm going by what I saw in the movie version of Fellowship of the Ring. Also, I'm tired and all the posts I'm seeing in my search are blurring together. If this argument has been previously posted, someone please delete it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-07 10:02am

Gandalf himself said that destroying the Rings of Power was a simple matter of the furnace being hot enough. Perhaps Mount Doom is far hotter than any normal volcano, and Sauron's power makes it much tougher to destroy than it would normally be, but the widespread claim that even an infinite amount of heat would have no effect is nothing more than asinine stupidity. Doesn't stop LOTR fanboys from treating it as fact, though.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-08-07 10:08am

Oh god, here we go again ...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-08-07 10:23am

It has...and in great volume.

Somewhere along the line, it was discussed that it can be and Mt. Doom was the only place in MIDDLE EARTH not the universe.

So keep it civil or one of us will lock it guys.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-08-07 11:02am

Darth Wong wrote:Gandalf himself said that destroying the Rings of Power was a simple matter of the furnace being hot enough. Perhaps Mount Doom is far hotter than any normal volcano, and Sauron's power makes it much tougher to destroy than it would normally be, but the widespread claim that even an infinite amount of heat would have no effect is nothing more than asinine stupidity. Doesn't stop LOTR fanboys from treating it as fact, though.

I'll have to look in my copy of the books, but in the movie all they say is that the One Ring can only be destroyed in Orodruín. The Ring isn't just gold metal - it's the Will and Power of Sauron, in a world where magic is a force every bit as real and tangible as any other.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-07 11:04am

However, advanced blast furnaces don't exist in Middle Earth. So the point is moot. And who cares?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-08-07 11:21am

Smiling Bandit wrote:However, advanced blast furnaces don't exist in Middle Earth. So the point is moot. And who cares?

So all those monthes ago when asked whether a hotter source could destroy the One Ring, numerous response were...

"ONLY MOUNT DOOOOOOM!!!"

So this is to address that we don't get Plasma Torch vs One Ring with numerous vague and unknown responses of the One Ring's durability.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-08-07 11:50am

Only Mount Doom?!

Did these people just not pay attention? The Elven forge of the country that made the Rings of Power was said to be capable of it but it no longer existed. Being eaten by a dragon was said to be able to destroy it but the last dragon Smaug was killed. Mount Doom was just they only option stilll in existence.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-07 11:54am

These debates always degenerate into something really scary, like the debate where the fanboys stated that Vader's lightsaber could not effect the Witch King at Minas Tirth because his magic was more powerful than a lightsaber.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-07 12:08pm

That is actually possible. Well, it would affect him, but the question is, will Vader kill him with one blow (He ain't easy to kill, you know), and will the Witch-King's weapon-destroying charm work on the lightsaber? All it needs to break is the grip/power source or the crystal.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-08-07 12:11pm

I stand corrected, and should have waited until I had the book handy. Conceded.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-07 12:46pm

Dragonfire is noted as being able to destroy lesser rings.. It's how several Dwarvish ones were lost. However, it's noted that the One Ring is tougher to destroy than the lesser rings, and that only one of the legendary dragons could even have tried.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-08-07 01:00pm

FOG3 wrote:Only Mount Doom?!
Did these people just not pay attention? The Elven forge of the country that made the Rings of Power was said to be capable of it but it no longer existed. Being eaten by a dragon was said to be able to destroy it but the last dragon Smaug was killed. Mount Doom was just they only option stilll in existence.

Just out of curiosity... Where was it said that an Elven Forge could destroy the ring or that being eaten by a dragon would do it? A few quotes would be nice.

Bartman · Post by **Bartman** » 2003-08-07 01:02pm

FOG3 wrote:Only Mount Doom?!
Did these people just not pay attention? The Elven forge of the country that made the Rings of Power was said to be capable of it but it no longer existed. Being eaten by a dragon was said to be able to destroy it but the last dragon Smaug was killed. Mount Doom was just they only option stilll in existence.

Um no, I think it was you who wasn't paying atention. Celebrimbor's forge is never mentioned in conjuction with the one ring. And dragons are specifically mentioned as being incapable of destroying it, although they could destroy the other great rings.

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself." - FotR

There are two ways to destroy the ring according to Tolkien's writings, the aforementioned "only Mt Doom" and it could also be destroyed by someone with "greater smithcraft" than Sauron.

"The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made." - Letter #131

As far as I am concerened this gives us two limits, even if they are not particularly useful or specific. Our lower limit is that no Dragon could destroy it. If only we knew exactly how many watts Ancalagon put out.

The second limit is is an upper limit. Apparently some form of "smithcraft" was sufficient to destroy the ring. Unfortuately we don't have any detailed descriptions of the construction of any of the great magical artifacts in ME. So we don't know if the elves had at some point the equivalent of foundries or blast furnaces. But we do know that the ring could be destroyed by somthing that could be described as smithcraft. But the ring could be destroyed under conditions where molecular bonds still hold.

This leads me to conclude that to destroy the ring all one had to do was apply enough energy. The exact amount of energy is of course highly debatable.

However as beyond hope pointed out in the original post, volcanic lava temperatures are lower than the temperatures that are likely to be found in Middle Earth smelters. Added to that is the fact that we have seen at least one ME artifact survive a lava bath (one of the silmarils). So the ring may well have been made to be able to resist such temperatures. We also have other examples of volcanos in ME, although there we know of no active volcanos in North East ME at the end of the third age. Despite this no one suggests using any alternative to Mt Doom. This suggests to me that the ring was uniquely vulnerable to the heat of the pace of its forging. And that is a common motif in the Northern European myths Tolkien drew heavily from.

My conclusion? Most volcanoes would probably not do in the Ring, but a blast furnace probably would.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-07 01:18pm

Smithcraft is probably sort of magic ability and/or knowledge that is independent of temperature.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-08-07 01:36pm

The fact that the silmirillions were also made using this "smithcraft" somewhat supports your view CaptainChewbacca.
I think we have the problem of intent vs. capabilities. To one camp, it seems that the intent of Tolkien was that the One Ring was indestructible except for by one of greater smithcraft (everyone of such a nature was gone, or very well hidden) or by Mount Doom where it was forged. However since Tolkien never actually made his intention for this come to light, we can have another camp, who believes that the Ring is easily destroyed by something hotter than lava.
Therein lies the problem, both parties could be correct. LOTR is a fantasy novel, and as such can do things completely scientifically impossible, and claim magic. However, it must still be governed by science as well. Depending on how you interpret the book, you get exteme high and low ends.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-08-07 01:37pm

Well the wizards clearly have gunpowder, or someone in middle earth knows enough about chemistry to make decent fireworks...if it were possible to kill the ring with ordinary heat, wouldn't they use the chemicals?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-07 01:48pm

Perhaps one must combine chemistry and theurgy to destroy the Ring if they don't have lava.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-08-07 01:53pm

To me, it's always been clear that Mount Doom was the hottest place on Middle Earth, and that the matter was only applying enough heat to destroy the Ring. Since the other Great Rings could all be destroyed if eaten by a dragon (and, in fact, some of the dwarven rings were), I see no reason why the One Ring would have been immune to any amount of heat. IIRC, the other rings were all meltable at different temperatures. Even lesser dragons could destroy some of the lesser rings, but the elven rings (for example) could only be eaten and destroyed by very powerful dragons.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-07 02:02pm

Such is certainly not even suggested, even though you have one of the most potent wielders of thaumaturgy and gunpowder on Middle Earth in the party. Gandalf can't smoke the ring.

Ancalagon The Black, the legendary Wyrm who is specifically stated couldn't muster the heat, is stated to breath fire in the Similrillian, turning the humans caught in the cone of fire into ash. Assuming that's heat similar to modern cremation, that's 1600+ degrees C.

Several parties(Elves and Dwarves) seem able to manufacture steel, so I went a-looking for the temperatures required for that. I'm sure someone can find better numbers, but all I could get out was something called a 'slot furnace' and temperatures of 2200 - 2400 degrees F. Looking into Damascus Steel, we get temperatures in the same region: 2300 degrees F. This comes out to the same range of temperatures(1000-1600 C) stated earlier, so we are no closer, sadly.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-08-07 02:11pm

Smithcraft could also be taken as meaning "superior knowledge of smelting and forging techniques." I'd also rate it as highly likely that Tolkein had no clue what the temperature of a volcano is compared to the temperature of a smelter (I didn't either until I looked them both up) and simply assumed that no furnace would reach the heat of Mount Doom. It was the fact that the ring doesn't get hot in the fire that made me wonder about it. Perhaps the enchantment which gives the ring it's unnatural durability could be treated as a "shield" which must be overpowered to break the enchantment (and destroy the ring?)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-08-07 02:12pm

It seems, then, that we know that the Ring cannot be melted by less than about 1900K, but have no information on its thermal resistance above about 2100K.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-07 02:19pm

beyond hope wrote:Smithcraft could also be taken as meaning "superior knowledge of smelting and forging techniques." I'd also rate it as highly likely that Tolkein had no clue what the temperature of a volcano is compared to the temperature of a smelter (I didn't either until I looked them both up) and simply assumed that no furnace would reach the heat of Mount Doom. It was the fact that the ring doesn't get hot in the fire that made me wonder about it. Perhaps the enchantment which gives the ring it's unnatural durability could be treated as a "shield" which must be overpowered to break the enchantment (and destroy the ring?)

Perhaps if we found a way to reveserse the polarity of the shield's tetryon particles we could initate a nadion burst that would reduce the ring to its component atoms.

Anyway, I agree with Ossus, that has always been my view on it, Mt. Doom was the hottest place in ME. Sauron forged his Ring of power in the hottest furnace known to them thus, it's magical immunity to all but the fires of Mt. Doom.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-08-07 02:20pm

SirNitram wrote:Such is certainly not even suggested, even though you have one of the most potent wielders of thaumaturgy and gunpowder on Middle Earth in the party. Gandalf can't smoke the ring.

Ancalagon The Black, the legendary Wyrm who is specifically stated couldn't muster the heat, is stated to breath fire in the Similrillian, turning the humans caught in the cone of fire into ash. Assuming that's heat similar to modern cremation, that's 1600+ degrees C.

Actually, it's a good bit hotter than that - it takes two hours at 2200 degrees F to reduce a human body entire to ash. A brief moment at those temperatures will render a charred corpse, rather than a scattering of ashes.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-07 02:22pm

Stravo wrote:
beyond hope wrote:Smithcraft could also be taken as meaning "superior knowledge of smelting and forging techniques." I'd also rate it as highly likely that Tolkein had no clue what the temperature of a volcano is compared to the temperature of a smelter (I didn't either until I looked them both up) and simply assumed that no furnace would reach the heat of Mount Doom. It was the fact that the ring doesn't get hot in the fire that made me wonder about it. Perhaps the enchantment which gives the ring it's unnatural durability could be treated as a "shield" which must be overpowered to break the enchantment (and destroy the ring?)
Perhaps if we found a way to reveserse the polarity of the shield's tetryon particles we could initate a nadion burst that would reduce the ring to its component atoms.

I will stab you so much.

As a brief aside, going by both descriptions of Mt. Doom and the visuals from the film, we aren't seeing lava like in Hawaii. Even there, a noticable crust forms as it moves. This is not what we saw at Oroduin, where the lava ran free and liquid. This is more comparable to the Mantle, where temperatures skyrocket to 3000 degrees C... A nice, comfortable upper limit for our discussion.