Force Sub: Romans at the Battle of Charm

[Stormbringer]

Instead of the rebel horde that was annihilated there's Gauis Julius Casear and six veteran Roman legions doing the beseiging of Charm. They do have the socerors that the Rebels did but otherwise it's all the Romans.

So do they actually manage to break through or are they doomed to failure?

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Battle of Charm?

[Alex Moon]

Battle of Charm?

From the Black Company books, by Glen Cook. The battle of Charm was the deciding battle that ended the White Rose Rebellion against a sorceress called The Lady. The White Rose Rebels beseiged the citidel at Charm, which was the Lady's capital. Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of soldiers assaulted a series of fortifications surrounding the citadel.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

From the Black Company books, by Glen Cook. The battle of Charm was the deciding battle that ended the White Rose Rebellion against a sorceress called The Lady. The White Rose Rebels beseiged the citidel at Charm, which was the Lady's capital. Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of soldiers assaulted a series of fortifications surrounding the citadel.

How long did the battle last? And did they have any siege equipment?

P.S. Which six legions, from when? From the civil war era, or from the Gallic wars? Do they have the usual auxiliary support?

[Alex Moon]

From the Black Company books, by Glen Cook. The battle of Charm was the deciding battle that ended the White Rose Rebellion against a sorceress called The Lady. The White Rose Rebels beseiged the citidel at Charm, which was the Lady's capital. Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of soldiers assaulted a series of fortifications surrounding the citadel.

How long did the battle last? And did they have any siege equipment?

P.S. Which six legions, from when? From the civil war era, or from the Gallic wars? Do they have the usual auxiliary support?

I don't have the books with me, so I can't tell you the specifics, but I believe the battle lasted several days of constant fighting, and seige engines were used. The Rebels were assaulting a network of walls/ trenches under heavy fire from catapult and ballista, as well as archers. In addition, both sides had wizards throwing around a hell of a lot of powerful spells.

[Stormbringer]

How long did the battle last? And did they have any siege equipment?

It lasted four days of heavy fighting. The Rebels had seige equipment but none of it was particularly good and it wasn't used very well.

P.S. Which six legions, from when? From the civil war era, or from the Gallic wars? Do they have the usual auxiliary support?

Gallic Wars and yes they would have the auxilliary support.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How long did the battle last? And did they have any siege equipment?

It lasted four days of heavy fighting. The Rebels had seige equipment but none of it was particularly good and it wasn't used very well.

P.S. Which six legions, from when? From the civil war era, or from the Gallic wars? Do they have the usual auxiliary support?

Gallic Wars and yes they would have the auxilliary support.

Caesar never met a fortress he couldn't take.

[Symmetry]

Caesar never met a fortress he couldn't take.

I can assure you that he never met anything like Charm. Heck, in Caesar's time nobody was using the concept of defense in depth with multiple curtain walls, nor were any of the opposing commanders as competant as The Lady.

The basic setup at Charm was the Lady's tower (something like 50 stories tall, really wide, magically reinforced) surounded by ring after ring of moats and palisades and thickets of sharpened stakes.

The roman legions might be far more disciplined than Journey's troops, but they weren't as fanatical either. They'd probably have an easier time dealing with the outer defenses of Charm than the White Rose rebellion did, but I don't know of anything in the Roman arsenal that would make much of a dent in the tower itself, and the allied mages seem to have been outclassed by The Lady and her Taken.

The Black Company probably would have to have retreated into the tower, but I think the battle would have eventually turned out the same way.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Do the Romans have a cut-off date that they must take the fortress by? If not, then they set up their siege walls and wait; for years if necessary. Caesar isn't stupid, he's not going to assault such a heavily held fortress unless he has to.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Do the Romans have a cut-off date that they must take the fortress by? If not, then they set up their siege walls and wait; for years if necessary. Caesar isn't stupid, he's not going to assault such a heavily held fortress unless he has to.

And, of course, if they are going to be attacked by an outside force, they can always set up a second line of fortifications to defend their camps and siege-works around, ah, Charm is it?, just like at Alesia. Granted, the position is more serious, but if The Lady runs out of food before Caesar does, or he finds a way to defeat the attacking army...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Roman Fortifications at Alesia

Detail of section.

The Romans were outnumbered six-to-one at Alesia but were able to man the fortifications sufficiently as to repel combined attacks by the Gauls both trapped inside and attacking to relieve the defenders from the outside.

[Symmetry]

Do the Romans have a cut-off date that they must take the fortress by? If not, then they set up their siege walls and wait; for years if necessary. Caesar isn't stupid, he's not going to assault such a heavily held fortress unless he has to.

I seem to recall that the countryside had been completely razed, and that the tower had lots and lots of supplies. Thus, I'm not sure that time would work in Caesar's favor.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I seem to recall that the countryside had been completely razed, and that the tower had lots and lots of supplies. Thus, I'm not sure that time would work in Caesar's favor.

Well, that just brings up more questions. Are we giving Caesar the additional, oft forgotten details that made the Roman Army what it was: logistics? If we do, then Caesar will be recieving supplies and can hold out indefinitely (guerrillas could be extinguished by punitive expeditions). If we don't, then he probably won't succeed in an assault and will have to settle for routing whatever relief force arrives and visiting devastation upon the entire nation etc. etc.

Anyway, a lot of these comparisons don't really understand the strength of the Roman Legions. They were very good fighters, yes, but they weren't even close to invincible. The real advantage was that they had an engineering structure set up around them. If a legion was lost, it could be replaced rapidly. They could zip speedily from province to province on superb roads. If they were besieging a remote outpost without easy forage, they could recieve shipments of grain. They weren't so much powerhouses at delivering damage as they were geniuses at controlling and coping with damage.

[HemlockGrey]

IIRC, in six days Whisper will arrive with the eastern armies to raise the siege.

I don't know how many defenders there were, exactly, but only a few tens of thousands. The rebel horde numbered about 250,000, I think.

Charm's defenses were thus: The massive tower filled with traps, then three tiers loaded with defenders, and a network of palisades and trenches. The Black Company is on the highest tier. I'll check the books and come back tomorrow with more detailed information.

[HemlockGrey]

The Lady also had elephants, I believe.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

IIRC, in six days Whisper will arrive with the eastern armies to raise the siege.

Well, you've got to give the Romans some time. They could build thirty-six kilometers of effectively impregnable fortifications around Alesia, but it took weeks, not days.

I don't know how many defenders there were, exactly, but only a few tens of thousands. The rebel horde numbered about 250,000, I think.

You'd be giving the Romans 30,000 regulars and 30,000 auxiliaries for this scenario. The largest Roman force in Gaul at any one time was about 55,000 regulars and slightly more than that auxiliaries--facing what may have been more than 300,000 Gauls. Tribal levies could be very large for short periods of time.

Charm's defenses were thus: The massive tower filled with traps, then three tiers loaded with defenders, and a network of palisades and trenches. The Black Company is on the highest tier. I'll check the books and come back tomorrow with more detailed information.

The Romans could build wooden siege engines sheathed in bronze (if they had the materials to do so) to advance against the outer palisades and take them, and provide cover--the engines could carry pavises--for troops who would be filling in the trenches. Once the outer walls were reached and the trenches were filled, they could advance one of these:

A "helepolis" or city-taker, about 76 feet on a side and 150 feet high in nine stories, somewhat pyramidal in shape and armoured with sheet iron. In the front face would be loop-holes in the walls suitable in size for mechanical artillery to be placed, with shutters placed over them. Over three thousand men inside and outside of it would be used to move it.

Other armoured engines could be used to protect rams--the largest of which in Roman times would be sheathed in metal and weigh more than four and a half tons--to be used against the walls, and of course an engine like a helepolis could support a large egress of many assault troops against even very high walls.

But building such engines would, of course, require time and material.

And that's the thing. Six days is not enough time to take a fortress--So Caesar would not even bother. He would simply retire from Charm and start fortifying a camp in the direction that the army of Whisper is arriving in--and quite possibly succeed in defeating the forces of Charm and Whisper (those names are silly, you know) in detail on the open field.

[HemlockGrey]

Charm and Whisper might not be the most terrifyingly awe-inspiring of names, but it sort of fits the book. The main character's name is Croaker, and he's a physician.

Advancing away from Charm would probably be Caesar's best bet, and he can almost certainly recieve supplies; by that time, most of the north was in rebel hands.

However, he does still have to act quickly, because the north has been stripped of it's defenses to besiege Charm. We don't know the size of Whisper's army, but it was thought to be capable of defeating the massive rebel horde.

And while fortification might work, once he moves away from Charm the Lady is free to move out her army and attempt to cut off his supplies.

And the magic element is there; while Caesar's wizards are mostly capable of countering the Lady's, in the book the rebels took a heavy pounding from magical spells, including disease, constant rain, and giants. There's also a shapeshifter on the Lady's side, he must be taken into account.

[Straha]

If you give the Romans time they can take on anything, they took Masada in about 7 weeks, and that was with a relitivley pittance force at the time.