Jedi vs. Cyber-Knight

[SAMAS]

Okay, in the continuing "Challenge the Jedi" series, something a little more balanced. A Cyber-Knight from RIFTS.

Cyber-Knight(let's say around level 4-6) uses only his Psi-weapons

Match 1: Standard Cyber-Knight with only his Cyber-armor for protection.

Match 2: Cyber-Knight gets to wear his usual combat armor. For this fight, let's say the traditional-looking Plate and Banded Metal armor.

Match 3: Yoda vs. Lord Coake. Coake gets only his armor(His Magic stuff may be too much here).

As far as I see it(off the top of my head):

Jedi Advantages
Speed
Force Precognition
Probable Additonal Force abilities

Cyber-Knight Advantages
Two Psi-Weapons(and possibly shield)
Better Protected
Counter-Technology abilities and Demi-Precognition
Possible Psionic abilities

[SirNitram]

Are we going to get any quantification of the Cyber-Knight? At all?

[TheFeniX]

Cyber Knights don't have any way to block TK and considering how easily Lightsabres cut through blast doors his cybernetic armor will do him no good.

If TK is out of the picture then it's just going to come down to who's the better duelist. I would put money on the higher-level Cyber Knight if we are comparing EP1-6 Jedi just because a Cyber Knight spends his entire life training and fighting in battles where death is pretty prevalent. Jedi only train with other Jedi in a relaxed(or mostly so) environment.

Moot point though: You have to have some form of TK protection to take a Jedi in a one-on-one fight. Maybe a Mind-Melter could do it, but from what I know Cyber Knights only get basic Psi-powers.

[Connor MacLeod]

Cyber Knights don't have any way to block TK and considering how easily Lightsabres cut through blast doors his cybernetic armor will do him no good.

The point of getting a quantification is to acquire numbers to make such comparisons. For all we know the Cyber-Knight's armor is oging to be as durable as a Trade Federation blast door. And while he might not be able to directly block TK, his durability/speed might be as such that (depending on the Jedi) the force generated by said TK might be overwhelmed.

If TK is out of the picture then it's just going to come down to who's the better duelist. I would put money on the higher-level Cyber Knight if we are comparing EP1-6 Jedi just because a Cyber Knight spends his entire life training and fighting in battles where death is pretty prevalent. Jedi only train with other Jedi in a relaxed(or mostly so) environment.

There are other ways the Jedi can fight. Throwing objects, for example. And the Force can be used to augment combat abilities in more than one way.

and the nature of the enviroment has no relevance to abilities, unless you are going to completely exclude the Force usage.

[Connor MacLeod]

Are we going to get any quantification of the Cyber-Knight? At all?

You got to it before me. Knowing SAMAS though, unless the numbers are stated or someone else does the work, we won't.

[SAMAS]

What, you mean abilities?

Well, I was hoping to get some opinions from those who already know first, but here we go:

Physical Abilities -- Like the Jedi, varies depending on race. Most tend to be at or near peak condition for their species.

Special Abilities/Training -- All Cyber-Knights have the ability to produce a Psi-Sword, a weapon(not always Sword-shaped) created out of pure mental energy. Capable of harming Mega-Damage structures(in fact, Cyber-Knights consider it a breach of chivalric code to use it on non-armored opponents). Experienced Cyber-Knights gain a Combat Awareness that allows them to detect when a single opponent is using a technology-based weapon against them. A Cyber-Knight will know an attack is coming at him at the same time the opponent does. This includes high-tech melee weapons such as Vibro-blades and Neural Maces as well as guns, missiles, etc... This ability expands as the Knight improves, allowing them to mess with sensors(making them harder to detect and target), or expands their awareness to any and all attackers.

In addition, a large number(roughly 80%) of Cyber-Knights have some minor Psychic abilities.

Special Equipment: Cyber-Armor capable of protecting against Mega-Damage weaponry. This actually becomes part of the body of an experienced Knight, improving it's defense, and becomes capable of self-repair.

[Ghost Rider]

*sigh*

No, what they want is quantifiable abilities...not a bunch of fluffy words.

1. Peak Condition is vague and uniformative...espcially since you mentioned other races.
2. How powerful is said Psi-Sword in term of cutting, energy output, etc?
3. What does MDC convert in term of regular physical terminology?
4. What type of physic abilites and what degree of physical control and manifestation does it take?

Literally you've yabbered out the RIFTS rule book and provide nothing to work from.

[Connor MacLeod]

Pretty much. Some of the data is useful, but it doesnt really tell us what they can withstand. Can they block the energy out put of a nuclear detonation? Do they possess the equivalent of tens of megatons of power, or a couple pounds of TNT? stuff like that.

[weemadando]

Cyber knights have a multitude of ways of dealing with TK.

My favourite way in Rifts of dealing with anyone irritatingly Psionic (like Jedi) involves lots and lots of Psyke-B, a commonly available drug that for those without Psionic powers gives them the sensory effect of having them, while those with Psionics find theirs inhibited. So, a gaseous release of Psyke-B to neutralise a Jedi's "force" abilities and hi-ho silver away.

Also, lets not forget that a level 4, 5 or 6 Cyberknight likely has the Psionic powers and abilities, not to mention the Cyberknight tech to take on a force user without intervention.

[SAMAS]

*sigh*

No, what they want is quantifiable abilities...not a bunch of fluffy words.

From an RPG system? I think you need to check your snooze button.

1. Peak Condition is vague and uniformative...espcially since you mentioned other races.

We're comparing professions here, not induviduals. Ballpark figures are the best anyone can do.

2. How powerful is said Psi-Sword in term of cutting, energy output, etc?
3. What does MDC convert in term of regular physical terminology?

I thought this was discussed already. But roughly:

2D4X100 MD = 100 kT.

Using only that, a single Kiloton would take out about 2-8 MDC.

A Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword inflicts at least 1D6 MD. It gets stonger as the Cyber-Knight gains levels. In the case of this thread, it would be from 2-3D6 MD. Not necessarily inflicting two Kilotons at max, but cutting through roughtly that level of resistance.

I had a much longer answer than this, but my comp crashed halfway though. I'll try to post that on my next post.

4. What type of physic abilites and what degree of physical control and manifestation does it take?

Depends on the Knight, and not all of them have to same abilities. But more importantly, the Psi-Sword is the only one that really matters in a straight-up fight.

[SirNitram]

You're scaling damage from only one example? Did you sleep through whatever classes Americans have for graphing? You can't construct a meaningful graph with one point, two or three are needed(Here's a hint: It's quite conceivable that this damage system is best represented by a curve, not a straight line. WEG's power scaling is the best example of this.). Next, you don't bother to mention whether the example for damage is thermal, kinetic, etc. You don't even show where it's from.

[SirNitram]

To explain my skepticism, if this sword is to be believed to be kiloton-level, and, say, thermal, even at 99.9% efficiency, it's emitting 4 GJ of thermal energy into it's enviroment constantly. To explain the problem here, a few hundred kW emerging into the atmosphere like this will kill a human; how durable are we expected to beleive Cyber Knights are?

[SAMAS]

You're scaling damage from only one example? Did you sleep through whatever classes Americans have for graphing? You can't construct a meaningful graph with one point, two or three are needed(Here's a hint: It's quite conceivable that this damage system is best represented by a curve, not a straight line. WEG's power scaling is the best example of this.). Next, you don't bother to mention whether the example for damage is thermal, kinetic, etc. You don't even show where it's from.

Actually, I would rather not have, as even that example isn't straightforward.

The original post was supposed to mention that using that one example is iffy, since on the same page, a 200 KT weapon is listed as inflicting only 3D4x100 MD, instead of 4D4X100. My guess would be that each "upgrade"(adding a dice or upping D4 to D6) is something like .25 to .5 kT, but I wouldn't put much stock in that. Like I said earlier, Rifts' power levels have been described more in terms of what they do than any hard numbers. In fact, those two numbers for the Nukes in Coalition Navy are pretty much the only ones I can remember.

[SAMAS]

To explain my skepticism, if this sword is to be believed to be kiloton-level, and, say, thermal, even at 99.9% efficiency, it's emitting 4 GJ of thermal energy into it's enviroment constantly. To explain the problem here, a few hundred kW emerging into the atmosphere like this will kill a human; how durable are we expected to beleive Cyber Knights are?

Well, as far as stuff like Psi-Swords and Vibro-Blades are concerned, It would be more of a "can cut through that level or resistance," or something like that. Besides, Psi-Swords have never been said to be hot.

Laser blasts, on the other hand, yes.

[Darth_Shinji]

Depends on the level of the cyber knight and the strenght of the Jedi's tk. Most Jedi would win every time with tk against a low-level cyber knight. But higher CK's have access to at least some super psionics that could equal out the odds.

But this is based on the main rpg book stats, I don't have anything new on the CKs.

[SirNitram]

You're scaling damage from only one example? Did you sleep through whatever classes Americans have for graphing? You can't construct a meaningful graph with one point, two or three are needed(Here's a hint: It's quite conceivable that this damage system is best represented by a curve, not a straight line. WEG's power scaling is the best example of this.). Next, you don't bother to mention whether the example for damage is thermal, kinetic, etc. You don't even show where it's from.

Actually, I would rather not have, as even that example isn't straightforward.

The original post was supposed to mention that using that one example is iffy, since on the same page, a 200 KT weapon is listed as inflicting only 3D4x100 MD, instead of 4D4X100. My guess would be that each "upgrade"(adding a dice or upping D4 to D6) is something like .25 to .5 kT, but I wouldn't put much stock in that. Like I said earlier, Rifts' power levels have been described more in terms of what they do than any hard numbers. In fact, those two numbers for the Nukes in Coalition Navy are pretty much the only ones I can remember.

I wouldn't put any stock in it, since you've handed us one example and proceeded to assume a 1-1 relationship without anything to support it. If someone familiar with RIFTS can give some examples of real weapons around 2-6MDC, on the other hand...

[SirNitram]

To explain my skepticism, if this sword is to be believed to be kiloton-level, and, say, thermal, even at 99.9% efficiency, it's emitting 4 GJ of thermal energy into it's enviroment constantly. To explain the problem here, a few hundred kW emerging into the atmosphere like this will kill a human; how durable are we expected to beleive Cyber Knights are?

Well, as far as stuff like Psi-Swords and Vibro-Blades are concerned, It would be more of a "can cut through that level or resistance," or something like that. Besides, Psi-Swords have never been said to be hot.

Laser blasts, on the other hand, yes.

Ladies and gentleman, someone has just made the claim that 1kT can be used as a measurement of sharpness...

[SirNitram]

Depends on the level of the cyber knight and the strenght of the Jedi's tk. Most Jedi would win every time with tk against a low-level cyber knight. But higher CK's have access to at least some super psionics that could equal out the odds.

But this is based on the main rpg book stats, I don't have anything new on the CKs.

What are these powers that could deal with TK?

[Connor MacLeod]

Just what kind of "kiloton range" weapon was this?

And by "examples" I was hoping for something quantifiable - asome sort of object that is melted, vaporized, shattered, incinerated, etc...

[The Dark]

Okay, in the continuing "Challenge the Jedi" series, something a little more balanced. A Cyber-Knight from RIFTS.

Cyber-Knight(let's say around level 4-6) uses only his Psi-weapons

Match 1: Standard Cyber-Knight with only his Cyber-armor for protection.

Jedi wins this one. The Cyber-Armor is penetrable rather easily, and the living armor upgrade won't help in a single short combat. Based on probability theory, only 43% of psychic Cyber-Knights have Sixth Sense, the rough equivalent of Jedi precognition. With the overall probabilities of being psychic, only 34% of all Cyber-Knights have that ability. Even fewer are telekinetic. Additionally, their ability to power their psychic abilities is very limited. The Cyber-Knight is toast.

Match 2: Cyber-Knight gets to wear his usual combat armor. For this fight, let's say the traditional-looking Plate and Banded Metal armor.

Probably ends up the same way, though the Cyber-Knight has more chances to get in a lucky hit. The Plate and Banded can sustain a couple hits from a plasma cannon, which still seems closest in effect to a lightsaber (though the exact mechanism of the lightsaber is still a mystery). I still doubt the Cyber-Knight can match the Jedi's abilities.

Match 3: Yoda vs. Lord Coake. Coake gets only his armor(His Magic stuff may be too much here).

Coake's not a psychic, so he won't have precognition against Yoda. Given the "Mad Muppet" style of fighting seen in Ep.II, I have to give this to Yoda. The only thing Coake has going for him is the Zen combat allows him to know where the lightsaber is. I might give him the listed bonuses, but I would not assign Yoda the penalties, as Yoda is used to sparring precognitive opponents. However, Yoda is perfectly capable of defeating Coake.

[Connor MacLeod]

Keep in mind that if this weapon is a bomb, only a fraction of the energy discharged will actually ever hit any target.. and the intensity will be much less.

[Darth_Shinji]

Depends on the level of the cyber knight and the strenght of the Jedi's tk. Most Jedi would win every time with tk against a low-level cyber knight. But higher CK's have access to at least some super psionics that could equal out the odds.

But this is based on the main rpg book stats, I don't have anything new on the CKs.

What are these powers that could deal with TK?

Well, its been alwhile since I've read the book, but they do get access to super psionics after alone while, stuff like TK, combat precog, and other kinetics.

[SAMAS]

Just what kind of "kiloton range" weapon was this?

And by "examples" I was hoping for something quantifiable - asome sort of object that is melted, vaporized, shattered, incinerated, etc...

Like I said, that's a tough proposition(they rarely show or mention that kind of stuff), but I'll see what I can do. Fortunately, I have all morning today.

The Better examples I found are in the first Sourcebook and the final Siege on Tolkeen book. In SB1, they describe the effects of Mega-Damage weapons on normal SDC targets. Beware of a little graphic content:

Example number one: Your character is out in the wilderness. His food supply exhausted, he goes hunting for food. A jack rabbit leaps out from hiding and the character blasts it with his energy pistol inflicting a mere one (1) point of mega-damage. All that remains of the rabbit is a smear of blood. Suddenly, a deer, startled by the noise, makes a dash through open ground! The character whirls around and blasts it with with his mega-damage handgun, inflicting two (2) M.D.! The animal is torn in half by the blast and the medium size tree behind it is also split in half and falls over toward the character(it berely misses him). Behind the tree is a volleyball size swath cut through the bushes, some 50 yards long. At least the character has enough of the deer left to provide food for several days....

...The trail ends at a ramshackle saloon in a shanty town. Inside the saloon is a host of rough and tumble rogues; among them, your suspect. None are wearing M.D.C. armor, but a few are armed with M.D. weapons. The moment he sees you the suspect pulls out a weapon. It is a mega-damage laser. He shoots and hits. You return fire with a mega-damage assault rifle and strike, inflicting 8 M.D.! The suspect's entire upper torso is vaporized... ...A headhunter dives behind the bar and fires his mega-damage rifle wildly at the attackers. Each shot misses, but punches basketball size holes though the walls and into the street where a fleeting patron is blasted in half... ...another saloon patron jumps one of the player characters. He's attacked the most vulnerable-looking target, an unarmed, robed fellow. The robed character is a metamorphed dragon. The dragon does not want to kill this guy, so he tries to slap him and knock him out. Unfortunately, in the excitement he strikes too hard (first roll to strike and then roll pull punch; a failed pull punch roll means he strikes with full force). He hits him in the headinflicting four (4) M.D. points or the equivalent of 400 S.D.C. points! The man's head is torn from the shoulder and bounces off the wall across the room or is splattered like a melon. (Note: I know these these discriptions are fairly graphic and quite disgusting, but this is what would happen when military weapons designed to destroy heavily armored tanks and giant robots are used against ordinary people and S.D.C. structures)

More to come. I don't want to risk another crash....

[SAMAS]

From Rifts Coalition Wars: Cyber Knights; Siege on Tolkien 4:

...The rail guns have been all been powered down to fire a non-lethal "sponge round" that inflicts only one M.D.C. upon impact(certainly not enough to kill a Cyber-Knight) but also delivers a tremendous kinetic blow... ...One, friendly fire! Already a few Cyber-Knights and spectators have been wounded by errant rail gun shots. Should a round hit an unarmored civillian, it will splatter him.

In a heartbeat the Glitter Boy Killer leaps to cover 15 feet(4.6 m) to land squarely on tom of the Cyber-Knight -- Sir Thorpe a small and vulnerable looking "David" to the Coalition's maechanical "Goliath." With impossible speed and precision, the Cyber-Knight spins and dodges the thundering landing of his opponent, Psi-Ssword appearing in his right hand, a Psi-Tomahawk in the left. He has positioned himself to end up between the the Glitter Boy Killer's legs. The Psi-Tomahawk parries one of the Killer's own slashing blades as the Psi-Sword plunges into the belly of the mechanical beast.

The pilot screams and the Killer recoils now on the defensive. Sir Thorpe uses the bulk of his power armored opponent to shield himself from tthe sight of the two grunts and their leader. Before the reeling pilot inside the Glitter Boy Killer can retaliate, two more blows stagger it. The behemoth dropping to one knee.

Sir Thorpe vaults over its shoulder and lands squarely between the two Coalition grunts -- a hail of laser and plasma gunfire narrowly missing him during his display of acrobatics. The grunt who threatened Erin goes down with a Psi-Tomahawk chop to the back of his knee. He is not seriously hurt, but momentarily taken out of the action.

An astonishingly well placed blow from the Psi-Sword knocks the plasma rifle from his other assailant's hand. The Lieutenant, 20 feet(6m) back, dares not open fire for fear of hitting his own men. The startled and enranged Glitter Boy Killer suffers from no such compunction, however, and spins around, firing.

Erin and her young companion dive for cover -- the lad, in shock from the strom of combat exploding around him.

The Lieutenant is screaming orders over his loudspeaker as he too dives for cover, but the words are lost in the hail of gunfire.

Sir Thorpe uses the Grunt who had threatened Erin as a human shield. The other soldier is cut-down by "friendly fire."

The Grunt in hand is seriously injured, bot alive. He is out of commission and the Cyber-Knight drops the dead weight to face the Killer.

There is a moment where everybody seems to be frozen like statues as they instantly size up the situation. A second later, the CS officer and the Glitter Boy Killer begin blasting away -- the Killer Pilot screaming like a crazy-man over the loudspeaker of his robot armor. Sir Thorpe charges the Glitter Boy Killer miraculously a half step ahead of, or successfully dodging, every blast directed at him.

A twisting leap and Sir Thorpe avoids a slashing strike by one of the huge forearm blades and (barely) twin blasts from the Killer's small shoulder guns. While still in midair, he slices the left shoulder gun in half, sending a shower of sparks flying into the air. He manages to kick the other shoulder gun to make its last blast miss, while looping the Psi-Tomahawk around one of the barrels of the top mounted laser turret, pulling himself up and over on the Killer's back a millisecond before the lasres fire -- The energy blade slicing its barrel as he vaults over it.

Like a surrying, swinging monkey, Sir Thorpe manages to hold on, chopping at the head and main body while dodging each swipe of the Killer's scythe-like blades. The right shoulder gun is the first to go. Then the tri-barreled laser turret. Then the right hand and chest guns, before a final well-placed blo to the chest unleashes a gusher of electrical sparks and the Glitter Boy Killer staggers.

The Cyber-Knight is already diving foreward through the sparks before Erin Tarn can usher her scream of warning. An energy blast from behind silently cuts through the air, grazing the armor plated back of her champion.

The Lieutenant had circled around during the frantic melee with the Gilitter Boy Killer. Sir Thorpe lopes like a panther, crouched low to the ground on all fours, dodging blasts until another one hits him square in the chest. His psychic energy blades vanishvanish, and the knight is sent flying several feet backwards, where he lies like a rag doll on the ground.

The smoldering body of the noble knight is still an unmoving as the triumphant Military Specialist walks over to gloat, rifle still in hand, pointing at his adversary. Erin Tarn holds her hands over her mouth to stifle a scream Only a whimper squeaks through her fingers. The lad with her begins to cry. His sobs as much for his own fate as for the death of the legendary Sir Thorpe.

Sanding at the feet of his quarry, the Military Specialist smiles beneath the Death's Head face plate. "Damn Injun. You were amazing. Crazy, but amazing. I've never seen anybody move like that. More luck than brains, though. No one man, nor even a Cyber-Knight, could have taken all four of us, you crazy son of a..."

Before he knows what hits him, Sir Thorpe's feet entangle the soldier's right leg, and with a quick twist, knock the lieutenant's feet out from under him. Gravity does the rest. The Lieutenant falls backwards and to the side. His gun blaring, shooting laser bolts to the heavens. The instant he hits the ground the Cyber-Knight is on top of him. One hand blocking the still shooting assault rifle, the other wielding the Psi-Sword. In a swirl of light and motion it is over, the Psi-Sword parting the lieutenenat's head from his shoulders.

Another anti-crash break...

[SAMAS]

Scratch that. Is that sufficient? I kinda ran out of drive. If needed, I can post more later.