The Glory that is Tsunami

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-26 09:21pm

Well, after another long absence (and deciding how things work around this site, though I won't go into that), I've decided to pick up posting here once more.

So...

If you've seen the "Tenchi Muyo" OVA, and read the manga based on said OVA, the most powerful starship in the Universe is defined as the incredible, freakishly beautiful Tsunami, flagship of the Jurai fleet. How would such a powerful, majestic starship fair in battle against the Empire?

Fact #1: In the OVA 12 "Zero Ryoko", we see Tenchi use just three light hawk wings to control (and, we assume, collapse) a black hole. Tsunami possesses ten such wings.

In the worlds of Darkstar, "Eat that, Volvo". And need I mention Tenchi slicing the Souja in half with just one wing, in OVA 6?

Fact #2: Kagato used the Souja, in OVA 6, to fire a blast that would have destroyed Earth (at least, we assume-A beam of that size was roughly equivalent to a Death Star super laser shot), a blast which Tsunami took with her bare shields, with no apparent damage.

Fact #3: The barrage Tsunami inflicted upon the Souja, more for it's speed than anything (squeezing off thirty-forty shots in a matter of seconds) assures that, against virtually any other opponent, she'd completely obliterate them.

While the power levels and size of the Tsunami can only be guessed at, the on-screen evidence supports the idea of the Tsunami potentially overwhelming an Imperial task force. Combined with her cloak capability, I have a hard time imagining any Imperial starship being able to fight her and last for more than a matter of minutes. Moreover, considering she took a shot powerful enough to destroy a planet, Tsunami would probably have no trouble dealing with the Death Star.

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Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-08-26 09:32pm

I suggest moving this to fantasy.
As for Tsunami, the lighthawk wings could block fire from an ISD, however, multiple ISDs could cover enough angles to sneak shots against the otherwise weak hull. However, Tsunami has enough firepower to kill ISDs.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-26 09:39pm

I suggest moving this to fantasy.
As for Tsunami, the lighthawk wings could block fire from an ISD, however, multiple ISDs could cover enough angles to sneak shots against the otherwise weak hull. However, Tsunami has enough firepower to kill ISDs.

According to the manga, Jurai ships have shields (as demonstrated by the Bizen in vol. 9? I forget, sorry). Therefore, the Tsunami would most likely have another shielding system besides just her LHWs. And I doubt Tsunami would let herself get surrounded like that, given how fast she moved in OVA 6 (Earth orbit one moment, no more than a few hundred kilometers away the next). This suggests she has some sort of subspace phasing ability, which may be her cloak as well.

Nice that you're not screaming at me for coming back. Though all that spammer business was unpleasant, it's still left a black mark on my record here.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-26 09:40pm

Fact #2: Kagato used the Souja, in OVA 6, to fire a blast that would have destroyed Earth (at least, we assume-A beam of that size was roughly equivalent to a Death Star super laser shot), a blast which Tsunami took with her bare shields, with no apparent damage.

Is it stated that this blast has the power to destroy Earth?

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-26 09:44pm

Is it stated that this blast has the power to destroy Earth?

According to the reviews the OVA got, on several sites I researched, yes. And according to the Tenchi Encyclopedia on the Tenchi the Movie 2 DVD.
And Kagato's record in OVA 4 said he was responsible for the destruction of several planets-What would a tiny thing like Earth be to him?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-08-26 11:10pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote: Nice that you're not screaming at me for coming back. Though all that spammer business was unpleasant, it's still left a black mark on my record here.

SPAM!?!? Where?

Anyway this all sounds nice and good, just wondering if we get any other cannon demostrations of power besides reflecting stuff and a beam the size of the DS. Also links would be helpful too please.

-Not questioning, just wondering

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-26 11:21pm

The Tenchi Muyo! manga is not canon.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-27 09:16am

The Anime strongly imples that Kagato was going to toast the planet. Exactly what that attack would have done to the earth is unknown, because it never hit. But it was big. And Kagato had blown up planets before.

We also have no idea about the scale of firepower involved, here, though. The energy contained in any of the attacks could still be an order of magnitude or more below Imperial standards.

The key to cutting the SOuja in half was that Tenchi was inside the thing, too. Attacks from the outside had no effect.

Although the ship-self-destruct of Doc Ock was similar to a Black Hole, it was not the same thing. Although somewhat supernatural, the Lighthawl wings have not displayed any ability to control space itself, which is what you'd need to escape from a Black Hole. However, it did keep them from being sucked in or crushed into proto-matter.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-27 09:18am

And Kagato had blown up planets before

Correction to myself. Kagato had destroyed planets before. We do not know what exactly was involved in the destruction. Since he was known as the Ruins Buster, he may simply have be searing the surface and eliminating everything he didn't want to share.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2003-08-27 12:14pm

I'm not sure just how Tsunami's cloak works, but it would give her a definate advantage over the ISD's, especially since she can fire while cloaked.

As for firepower, if she wasn't getting enough umph with her ordinary cannons, she may be able to pull the same stunt as Ryo Ohki (sp?) did when fused with Ryo Oh (sp) by using the Light Hawk wings as an offense weapon (except far more powerful due to fact that she has the power of 7 more past the 3 used).

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-08-27 02:07pm

Er, considering that even the regular Light Hawk Wings that appear on the lower level treeships are basically divine intervention from a multiversal goddess (namely Tsunami herself), then I'm not all that surprised that she's so darn powerful.

As for the capabilities of the LHWs:

Multiply the force of any attacks by 0, thus providing an impermeable defense. (Tenchi, for some reason, turned all three of Ryuuoh's LHW's into attack mode, allowing the Souja to blow it up in the time it took Tenchi to aim and fire; Kagato never actually defeated any form of the LHWs, with or without his ship)

Multiply the force of any defense by 0, thus providing an unstoppable attack.

I'm fairly certain that they've got some degree of reality warping in general, though I can't remember where it was shown. Possibly in that black hole scene. In any case, Tsunami can also teleport and ressurect the dead (though in Tenchi's case, apparently she couldn't do it more than once while still allowing him to retain his powers, IIRC), and has high level psychic abilities (casually slapped Kagato out of Ayeka's mind). As one of the three goddesses of her universe, even in her reduced form I'd expect her to have quite a bit of reality warping abilities...

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-08-27 02:13pm

Oh, and AFAIK, as long as even one wing is left in defense mode, it projects an impenetrable force field around the entire ship. IIRC, when Tsunami blocked the attack from the Souja (which I'm pretty certain was stated to be strong enough to destroy the Earth), the beam seemed to splash a short distance away from the hull, even when none of the 20 LHW's moved to try and stop it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-27 02:22pm

Tsunami has ten Light Hawk Wings...

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-08-27 03:22pm

Ack, typo. Thanks for the correction, I've just been distracted by my registration errors...

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 01:10pm

Ack, typo. Thanks for the correction, I've just been distracted by my registration errors...

No problem. I've probably irked Wong and everyone else to their breaking limit. They might ban me from the boards. I lost my temper, (sigh). Well, I'll happily accept the designation "Village Idiot", if I can continued discussions like this. Thanks. Sorry ahead of time.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-28 01:40pm

Let's leave your personal lamentations about this board and whatnot out of versus threads and in the HOS, okay?

With that out of the way, if this is Tsunami versus ISD, then I'm not sure how long it'll take Tsunami to eventually destroy the ISD, but the ISD's shots won't do much against the treeship so I think Tsunami would win.

It could be my Tenchi Muyo fanhood speaking, but that's my opinion.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 01:54pm

Let's leave your personal lamentations about this board and whatnot out of versus threads and in the HOS, okay?

No problem. I wholeheartedly think that, given the size of those explosions along Souja's hull, that Tsunami's guns would be more than a match for Imperial shields.

But, how would she fair against the Death Star itself? I sincerely doubt any of the DS's turbolaser batteries could do any real damage to her (limited range, after all). It's the super laser we'd have to be concerned about, but considering Tsunami's speed (she was in Earth orbit, blocking Souja's shot one moment, and a matter of seconds later she's pounding the hell out of Souja) and her cloaking ability, the DS would be hard pressed to target her.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-28 02:21pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote: But, how would she fair against the Death Star itself? I sincerely doubt any of the DS's turbolaser batteries could do any real damage to her (limited range, after all). It's the super laser we'd have to be concerned about, but considering Tsunami's speed (she was in Earth orbit, blocking Souja's shot one moment, and a matter of seconds later she's pounding the hell out of Souja) and her cloaking ability, the DS would be hard pressed to target her.

The thing is, we don't know for sure how strong the Souja's blast was. The Death Star's was apparently more than sufficient for the outright destruction of a planet (with planetary shields, like Alderran), but we don't know the same for the Souja.

And if it takes a while to destroy the ISD, it'll take Tsunami even longer to eventually wittle down the DS. Or she could get lucky and fire a shot down that thermal shaft but that's if she's very lucky or she aims well.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 02:30pm

The thing is, we don't know for sure how strong the Souja's blast was. The Death Star's was apparently more than sufficient for the outright destruction of a planet (with planetary shields, like Alderran), but we don't know the same for the Souja. .

Kagato had destroyed planets before. And what better way to be sure that you destroyed two members of the Jurai Royal family than blowing up the planet beneath them? The beam was fricking HUGE, after all. It's not inconceivable that it was planet-destroying grade.

As for the Death Star, regarding the entire debate between Wong and Darkstar, It didn't look like the DS reduced the planet to ashes by sheer force. That shockwave wasn't the product of anything on or in the planet.

Is it possible that the Death Star's superlaser can transform normal matter into anti-matter? It that case, this makes it an incredibly potent weapon, even against Tsunami. Then again, LHWs aren't exactly normal matter...

And if it takes a while to destroy the ISD, it'll take Tsunami even longer to eventually wittle down the DS. Or she could get lucky and fire a shot down that thermal shaft but that's if she's very lucky or she aims well

Well, I'd think it would take a while to destroy an ISD, even with Tsunami's firepower, considering how big they are (50,000,000 to 100,000,000 tonnes each, right?). Tsunami's LHWs, in weapons mode, might be strong enough for her to send a blast through the super laser assembly and right into the primary reactor. That is, if she has all ten (or just nine) of them in the weapon's mode.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-28 02:52pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:Kagato had destroyed planets before. And what better way to be sure that you destroyed two members of the Jurai Royal family than blowing up the planet beneath them? The beam was fricking HUGE, after all. It's not inconceivable that it was planet-destroying grade.

The Death Star beam was much thicker than the Souja's. The Souja couldn't have been more than 10 km long, while the Death Star was something like 120 or 160.

Besides, size doesn't always matter. A Culture bomb the size of your palm could obliterate a whole planet.

As for the Death Star, regarding the entire debate between Wong and Darkstar, It didn't look like the DS reduced the planet to ashes by sheer force. That shockwave wasn't the product of anything on or in the planet.

It still had every appearance of a DET attack. Beam hits planet, a moment later planet explodes violently. The very fact that the fragments (pretty large fragments I might add) were flying away from the explosion at very high speeds is enough to testify to the DS's power.

How much energy do you think it takes to move a chunk of rock at least thousand kilometers cubed at a speed of thousands of kilometers a second?

Is it possible that the Death Star's superlaser can transform normal matter into anti-matter? It that case, this makes it an incredibly potent weapon, even against Tsunami. Then again, LHWs aren't exactly normal matter...

No, I think the superlaser is just DET.

Well, I'd think it would take a while to destroy an ISD, even with Tsunami's firepower, considering how big they are (50,000,000 to 100,000,000 tonnes each, right?). Tsunami's LHWs, in weapons mode, might be strong enough for her to send a blast through the super laser assembly and right into the primary reactor. That is, if she has all ten (or just nine) of them in the weapon's mode.

The thermal shaft might be a better idea, especially if the superlaser fires at the moment Tsunami also fires.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2003-08-28 03:03pm

The Death Star beam was much thicker than the Souja's. The Souja couldn't have been more than 10 km long, while the Death Star was something like 120 or 160.

Besides, size doesn't always matter. A Culture bomb the size of your palm could obliterate a whole planet.

Granted. Still, Tsunami took Souja's shot with just her hull shields, not the LHWs. How much punishment could they take, I wonder, before shattering? Hm...

Culture bombs? GACK! Don't want to meet them (hugs USS Premonition model to chest) Sorry. Child hood moment there.

It still had every appearance of a DET attack. Beam hits planet, a moment later planet explodes violently. The very fact that the fragments (pretty large fragments I might add) were flying away from the explosion at very high speeds is enough to testify to the DS's power.

How much energy do you think it takes to move a chunk of rock at least thousand kilometers cubed at a speed of thousands of kilometers a second?

Again, granted. However, the shockwave still hasn't been satisfactorily explained. Why not two scenarios? One, the Death Star's laser is brute force against the Tsunami-Two, the Death Star has some cool trick up it's sleeve to destory planets like that, only less power intensive.

The thermal shaft might be a better idea, especially if the superlaser fires at the moment Tsunami also fires.

Perhaps. Still, I think that Tsunami would probably have the needed power to punch through the DS's hull. Did it even have shields? I mean, the X-Wings were blasting it's surface with ease.

Blasting straight through the superlaser into the fusion reactor would probably save time, and in Episode 2, we saw that the SL does directly lead into the reactor.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 04:06pm

I can't seem to recall any actual canon references that Kagato destroyed entire planets, although Yukinojo might have said something familiar...

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-28 04:09pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote: Perhaps. Still, I think that Tsunami would probably have the needed power to punch through the DS's hull. Did it even have shields? I mean, the X-Wings were blasting it's surface with ease.

They did mention going through some electromagnetic field.

Remember, the makers of the DS never expected the station to be attacked by a mere fighter squadron. Also, it was mentioned somewhere that there were two kinds of shields, one that blocked physical objects and one that blocked energy. The one on the DS could simply have been the one that blocked energy (incoming weaponfire, for you nitpickers).

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-08-28 04:10pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I can't seem to recall any actual canon references that Kagato destroyed entire planets, although Yukinojo might have said something familiar...

For sure, Ryo-ohki was said to have destroyed something like 29 planets and 50-something colonies.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-08-28 04:15pm

for me...

God damn it, I can't believe I forgot something like that. It's been a while since I've seen the OVA, but I really should have remembered that...