Steampunk World vs. Magic World

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-31 02:33am

Its a simple thing. A world with the pseudo-technology of Jules Verne vs a world of sword and sorcery.

Clockwork soldiers vs. Golems,
Dragons vs. Zepplins,
Cannons vs. Fireballs.

Assuming two nations of equal size and resources, who wins? Or does a Magic + Steampunk world like Arcanum beat both of them?

gravity · Post by **gravity** » 2003-08-31 08:51am

It really depends on which worlds we are talking about.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-08-31 11:10am

gravity wrote:It really depends on which worlds we are talking about.

Agreed, but for the most part I want to go with the steampunk on the fact that they usaully have guns and land battleships. But I could find a fantasy world that stomps even those advantages.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-31 11:10am

Magic tromps the opposition. A clockwork soldier needs re-winding, but a golem can be made of solid iron and bash it's way on forever. Dragons are far more deadly than the traditional Steampunk airship, wielding magic and fire, whereas few airships had more than an odd cannon. Fireballs and cannons are a hard match, but when you toss in all the other traditional attack spells, and the fact they don't blow up in your face if you load too hurridly...

Then, there's the big boys of Magic, but we won't make this more embarassing.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-31 12:16pm

Golems are prohibitively expensive, while clockwork soldiers can be mass-produced. Steampunk seems to be "easier" and could allow them to overwhelm the more careful, reflective, magical nation.

Would a dragon hold out against sustained rifle fire, or autogyros gunning for them?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-08-31 12:21pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Golems are prohibitively expensive, while clockwork soldiers can be mass-produced. Steampunk seems to be "easier" and could allow them to overwhelm the more careful, reflective, magical nation.

Would a dragon hold out against sustained rifle fire, or autogyros gunning for them?

Golems aren't really that expensive as to really be overrun by the massproduced clockworks, and if you run out of metal to make the golems with...here's some dirt.

Well, depends what dragon we are talking about, but most could probably take enough rifle fire to torch whatever was shooting at them.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-08-31 01:09pm

I think a tank is far more anologus to a Golem than a clockwork soldier. A cl9ockwork soldier however is able top be mass-produce and augement the infantry. Your golem and Dragons would have to meet land-battleships and there are air fighters in some steam punk universes.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-08-31 01:21pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Golems are prohibitively expensive, while clockwork soldiers can be mass-produced. Steampunk seems to be "easier" and could allow them to overwhelm the more careful, reflective, magical nation.

Would a dragon hold out against sustained rifle fire, or autogyros gunning for them?

You cannot overwhelm what you cannot kill... any mage worth his salt will have enough defensive spells to withstand an army of clockwork soldiers...

A dragon with its damage reduction could very easily survive rifle fire... without harm...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-08-31 01:22pm

Also note that they are using D&D...there are far nastier worlds of Magic...and even then they are using Baseline D&D(none of the Netherese etc that is easily accessible persay if you pit world vs world)

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-08-31 02:51pm

Why is it that when "Fantasy world" is mentioned, D&D is the first thing that comes to mind? there are far stronger, and Far Weaker Fantasy worlds out there. Not all Dragons Cast Spells in them, Magic can be more common or more rare depending on the world. It would be best if we knew the types of Magic/Steampunk worlds out there.

I mean, for all we know, it might be Steampunk vs. a harry-potter style Magical world.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-08-31 03:07pm

With regards to which by itself is more effective, that completly depends on how powerful the magic is in that world. I'd say that steampunk could probably easily take pre-interregnum Drageria, but would be crushed by post-interregnum Drageria, for instance.

Archanum probably wouldn't be a good example of this, since in that setting magic and technology are intrinsically opposed, but, all things being equal, I would bet on any setting with access to both magic and technology against any setting with just one. Sure, they'd have half as many mages as the magic setting and half as many artificers as the steampunk setting, but they'd be able to pick the best from each.

I've also always thought that there's something charming about mixed technology/magic settings. Caer Phaedria, one of the best LARPs I've ever been in, was like that, with industrail mages using their enchantments on the steel vats, so that the metal would harden into the proper temper for railroad tracks; and magic was a course of study at universities just like engineering.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-08-31 03:52pm

Steampunk combined with Forgotten Realms can have some interesting side effects. Thayan armies + steam tanks = Rashemen gets pwned.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-31 04:35pm

Clockwork soldiers, also, by the very nature of clockwork, are easy to defeat(Clockwork is delicate, and can't have decision making.). I wasn't bringing up D&D because it's simply not fair; They have cannon, far superior air support, and magic that blows Steampunk away so fast it simply isn't funny. But it's used so often precisely because there are far more powerful and far weaker worlds; it's sort of the middle ground and a very well-known power level.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-08-31 05:40pm

Something else to think about when pitting Dragons (D&D/Council of Wyrms) versus Steampunk Airships: Manuverability.

How fast can an airship move? How fast can it turn to face an attacker? Can it deal with an attack from above the dirigible, or from below the gondola?

Dragons in D&D have a manuverability B/C/D, depending on age and size. The younger dragons could in theory turn head over tail to reverse direction (B=180' turns), while the larger dragons can take up to four turns to come back around. Add in the Aerial Combat skill from the Council of Wyrms boxset, as well as Hover and Strafe, and the Dragon just became an Apache Helicopter versus the Goodyear Blimp.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-01 08:13am

Clockwork soldiers aren't usaully depicted that bad. Usaully there semi-standrad andriods in ability and intellegence. But what needs to be done is decide what steampunk universe we are using since there's so much we could bring up. I say Gurps Falkenstein. Its a middleground between say warmachines or anti-ice earth....who would definatly wipe D&D earth clean of all life.

Singular Quartet · Post by **Singular Quartet** » 2003-09-01 10:55am

Alright, I throw out Stephen R. Donaldson's The Cronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeleiver (simplely because I'm bored, and it's in my head)

Golem vs. Clockwork soldier?

The Clockwork soldier likely, however the golem is far more heavily mass produced, although they might be more along the lines of undead...

Dragon vs. Zepplin?

The closet you get to a Dragon would be the Wyrm of World's End. It's named that for a reason.

Cannon vs. Fireball?

Hmm... the closet to a fireball would be Lord's Fire... I think I'll go with the cannon, although the Lord's fire would shread anything at close range.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-01 11:50am

Darth_Shinji wrote:Clockwork soldiers aren't usaully depicted that bad. Usaully there semi-standrad andriods in ability and intellegence. But what needs to be done is decide what steampunk universe we are using since there's so much we could bring up. I say Gurps Falkenstein. Its a middleground between say warmachines or anti-ice earth....who would definatly wipe D&D earth clean of all life.

Some explanations of their capabilities would be nice.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-01 01:25pm

Castle Falkenstien is a alternate 1870's world where magic exists and many of the old fiction novels are real events (stuff by Jules Vernes, HG Wells, ect). Steampunk being the evolution of magic in this world. The main setting point of divergence is that millions of years ago a race of energy beings called the Farie came to our earth and there presence is at the heart of all the changes...But they are many non-farie stuff as well. Armies have things like land-fortesses, air ships (Some are blimb-styled, others are like Aztec's hovercrafts), and gaint steam-powered robots.

But if I'm the only one here with knoweledge of the book does anyone else have a more well-known suggestion?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-01 01:30pm

...And this is supposed to wipe out a D&D world? Hell, most D&D worlds have cannon, airships of various kinds, and self-propelled automatons. That's why I didn't intend to bring them in.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-01 01:38pm

SirNitram wrote:...And this is supposed to wipe out a D&D world? Hell, most D&D worlds have cannon, airships of various kinds, and self-propelled automatons. That's why I didn't intend to bring them in.

No I was referring to Anti-ice earth which could simply nuke from space-ships with anti-matter weapons. This is more of the middle-ground.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-01 01:41pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:
SirNitram wrote:...And this is supposed to wipe out a D&D world? Hell, most D&D worlds have cannon, airships of various kinds, and self-propelled automatons. That's why I didn't intend to bring them in.
No I was referring to Anti-ice earth which could simply nuke from space-ships with anti-matter weapons. This is more of the middle-ground.

....Antimatter and it's steampunk?

Then again, sometimes the Spelljammers need competition.. But let's keep on Steampunk.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-01 01:48pm

SirNitram wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:
SirNitram wrote:...And this is supposed to wipe out a D&D world? Hell, most D&D worlds have cannon, airships of various kinds, and self-propelled automatons. That's why I didn't intend to bring them in.
No I was referring to Anti-ice earth which could simply nuke from space-ships with anti-matter weapons. This is more of the middle-ground.

....Antimatter and it's steampunk?
The basic premise is that there is a naturally occuring anti-matter (Brought to earth on a metorite) thats found in the artric. Anti-ice remain's isolated from matter by a magnetic field caused by a superconducted electicity in it. In warmer temputures it breaks down and you can guess what happens. They use this for steam-powered goodness like air-ships and land-fortresses.

Then again, sometimes the Spelljammers need competition.. But let's keep on Steampunk.

Its steam-punk, just the most powerful I know of and we want this in the middle.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-09-01 05:12pm

What about Space: 1889? Could an AD&D world survive the landing a hundred-thousand man expeditionary force from the German Empire with bolt-action rifles, rifled artillery with recoil suppression, and support by "land battleships", steam cars, and airships, all delivered by Aetherships dominating the High Ground of Space?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-01 11:05pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:What about Space: 1889? Could an AD&D world survive the landing a hundred-thousand man expeditionary force from the German Empire with bolt-action rifles, rifled artillery with recoil suppression, and support by "land battleships", steam cars, and airships, all delivered by Aetherships dominating the High Ground of Space?

If it's a world with Spelljamming, they'll never get to the ground. Fear the Galleon that flies at 10% cee while cruising!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-01 11:14pm

I'm gonna clarify; I didn't want AD&D in this because, for the purposes of this debate, it's rather high-end. It contains alot of the technology the Steampunkers would have(They have hand cannons, normal cannons, and self-propelled flight vehicles), and then their magic. And that's just uber-generic world. In the star systems of Spelljammer, even the crappiest vehicle could run circles around most airships, and orbital strikes against atmospheric targets are very possible. In Toril, powerful mages would casually swat offenders from the sky, while the power of Invention would decide some things are too high-tech to exist on his world yet. On the Planes, it's simply a lost cause, and in the Mists of Ravenloft, things only work how the Dark Powers want them to. It's simply not a matchup where it really answers the question.

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Steampunk World vs. Magic World

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Steampunk World vs. Magic World