The newton question.... Force and Ki

[Darth_Shinji]

TK isn't like a tractor beam. You can't block a TK effort (Vader able to choke Ozzel through all the Executor's mass between him) If it WERE a tractor beam-like effect (IE emitted from Yoda) not only would you be able to interfere with it, it would interact with objects in the path of the beam.

Would you? Force TK is expressed in a very non-newtonion way (You're example) but in versus debates its generally excepted that it can be as a newtonion kintetic force keeping people lifted off the ground ext. The point is that while the chi blast is non-newtonion it still can exhibit that type of force on its target. You almost make it sound like we should simply though out the "power output" of the attacks in question becuase they are very non-newtonion, but TK is in the exact same position. It still can be reasonible assumed that there exhibit strenght of TK could be used in other ways and is compistated for in debates.

And no Jedi has ever claimed planet-shattering DET energy outputs, so the recoil issue is moot.

Pushing a fleet of SD's is alot of force. Not to mention some of the things Dark Jedi do...

[Darth_Shinji]

Okay, let me clarify my position on this matter.

Now we all know The Force is a very phyics defying thing right? Force TK can act thru objects, and basicaly act as if it was a real force only on the object we want it too. You could even see it as random kinetic force a Jedi gets to play with (At least thats how some peoples augerments come accross). There do seem to be limitations on how you can use it (I have yet to see it used as an actaul object, like say make a invisible chair or baseball bat out of the stuff like Invisible Woman). But we can accept these limitations as just how the Force works.

Why not Ki blasts? They are clearly non-newtonion too. But while the mode of transfer is different I don't see why the force of the energy blast should be so easly discounted becuase Ki is a form of phyics defeaying force like The Force. As far as the actaul blast is you should simply treat it as a blast of that intensity, just that Ki allows it too happen that way as well.

[SirNitram]

Blind, unsupported assumption #1 here: TK comes from the person. But it doesn't. It comes from the Force, a mystic field that binds all matter in the universe, according to Yoda. ANY recoil could be spread out over thousands of lightyears, if we must find an explanation.

Blind, unsupported assumption #2 here: Ignore all the other evidence against DET(Lack of atmosphere heating, for a fucking start), and focus on the newtonian recoil one should see from a Z-fighter.

Mistake #3: Bringing this here after I HOS'd it.

[Connor MacLeod]

[quote="Darth_Shinji
Would you? Force TK is expressed in a very non-newtonion way (You're example) but in versus debates its generally excepted that it can be as a newtonion kintetic force keeping people lifted off the ground ext.
[/quote]

First off, there is no such thing as "kinetic force." Get your damn facts straight otherwise don't waste my time with your pseudoscience.

Second, I never once implied that there wasn't an equal/opposite reaction going on, I simply pointed out that the origin of the "field" effect is not anchored on the Jedi, and gave the proof of this. Your logic demands that TK DOES in fact act as if there is some invisible force-beam being emitted from the Force user that interacts with the target. Yet as I clearly pointed out, this is not the case.

This is not true of all abilities - for example, Force lightning clearly can and does create recoil (witness Yoda's hands when he absorbs Dooku's attack in AOTC.) - this *IS* being discharged from the person.

The point is that while the chi blast is non-newtonion it still can exhibit that type of force on its target.

err, what? That sounds like a bunch of technobabble nonsense.

If the blast generates force on a target, it must also generate that same amount of force on the opposite target (as with Force lightning, or your "chi blasts" - we have proof of recoil from Krillin using an energy blast to propel himself upwards when he faces Nappa in DBZ)

It is possible to generate force and energy without directly firing AT the target. But this isn't an all encompassing solution (in case you were thinking of arguing that the energy/recoil for planet-shatternig blasts doesn't come from the person - despite the fact they "push" with their energy to achieve flight as Gohan taught Videl and the aforementioned Krillin example - this would mean they are STILL capable of generating that level of force in all other examples. You would still have to explain how Goku could not move by being weighed down by 40 tons of weights, and why Saiyans would train in gravity fields of hundreds of gees if they can withstand millions.)

Given your apparent lack of scientific understanding and your inability to figure out Suspension of Disbelief, I doubt any of this will be understood by you.

You almost make it sound like we should simply though out the "power output" of the attacks in question becuase they are very non-newtonion, but TK is in the exact same position.

Force and energy are two different things entirely. Again, try to learn some basic science. I'm not going to babysit your ignorance, and if you persist in acting as if your ignorance is not a big deal, don't expect me to maintain any further civility in this thread. I have no tolerance for deliberate ignorance.

It still can be reasonible assumed that there exhibit strenght of TK could be used in other ways and is compistated for in debates.

So?

Pushing a fleet of SD's is alot of force. Not to mention some of the things Dark Jedi do...

1.) Prove that TK behaves like a tractor beam.

2.) OTher abilities vary. If you refer to examples like, say, a Force storm, a Jedi isn't discharging it as a bolt of energy (like with Force lightning.) And noone to my knowledge has claimed multi-gigaton Force lightning dischrages on the part of a Jedi. Whereas DBZers (or other similar instances of uber-wanking) want to ignore science so they can claim staggeringly huge levels of energy just because they don't understand how to properly analyze observed evidence.

[Darth_Shinji]

Blind, unsupported assumption #1 here: TK comes from the person. But it doesn't. It comes from the Force, a mystic field that binds all matter in the universe, according to Yoda. ANY recoil could be spread out over thousands of lightyears, if we must find an explanation.

How exactly does that theory work? Please explain. Where exactly does the TK go when not in use? How can people move in the SW universe?

Blind, unsupported assumption #2 here: Ignore all the other evidence against DET(Lack of atmosphere heating, for a fucking start), and focus on the newtonian recoil one should see from a Z-fighter.

Except Ki is a form of magic! You can use it for TK, You can create illusions, all of DBZ's magic is a form of Ki manupluation..... All of the force is directed at the target, with no recol becuase its a phyics warping force in the first place.

[Darth Wong]

Okay, let me clarify my position on this matter.

Now we all know The Force is a very phyics defying thing right? Force TK can act thru objects, and basicaly act as if it was a real force only on the object we want it too.

So? You can use a magnet on iron filings right through a plastic divider; does this mean that all the rules have just been thrown out the window?

You could even see it as random kinetic force a Jedi gets to play with (At least thats how some peoples augerments come accross). There do seem to be limitations on how you can use it (I have yet to see it used as an actaul object, like say make a invisible chair or baseball bat out of the stuff like Invisible Woman). But we can accept these limitations as just how the Force works.

You're not getting it; we observe objects accelerating against inertia, physical resistance, and gravity. Therefore, we are observing application of force, which is defined as mass multiplied by acceleration. The method of application is totally irrelevant.

Why not Ki blasts? They are clearly non-newtonion too.

"Unexplained mechanism" does not mean "non-Newtonian", dumb-ass. If someone came up with a totally unprecedented method of applying force between object A and object B, this would not be "non-Newtonian"; Newtonian physics would still apply to it. If a 1kg object moves up 1 metre, it's still roughly 10J of GPE.

But while the mode of transfer is different I don't see why the force of the energy blast should be so easly discounted becuase Ki is a form of phyics defeaying force like The Force. As far as the actaul blast is you should simply treat it as a blast of that intensity, just that Ki allows it too happen that way as well.

I don't believe the question is not whether the blast is being accepted; from here, it looks as if they're questioning the methods by which you came up with a quantification for this blast, and whether the implicit assumptions were justified (see the ST phaser "vapourization" trick for an analogy of energy balances performed in direct violation of the thermodynamic principles from which they are defined). Since I have no particular interest in DBZ, I haven't even seen the clips you are undoubtedly referring to, but that doesn't mean I can't point out obvious and gross errors in your logic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, let me clarify my position on this matter.


Now we all know The Force is a very phyics defying thing right? Force TK can act thru objects, and basicaly act as if it was a real force only on the object we want it too. You could even see it as random kinetic force a Jedi gets to play with (At least thats how some peoples augerments come accross). There do seem to be limitations on how you can use it (I have yet to see it used as an actaul object, like say make a invisible chair or baseball bat out of the stuff like Invisible Woman). But we can accept these limitations as just how the Force works.

1.) You start with the unsubstantiated assumption that the Force uniformly defies physics. Were this actually so, and not simply a statement based of your own ignorance, we would not be able to quantify Jedi capabilities.

2.) There is no such thing as kinetic force. Stop pretending like you know what the fuck you're talking about when its apparent you have little understanding of real science.

3.) You assume that "group conesensus" somehow has a bigger relevance to debates than objective analysis.

4.) Your "limitations" are irrelevant. You can't "make objects" with Force, you can only simulate the effects (simulate the effects of a punch.) but this is by no means any sort of "fabrication" ability.

Why not Ki blasts? They are clearly non-newtonion too. But while the mode of transfer is different I don't see why the force of the energy blast should be so easly discounted becuase Ki is a form of phyics defeaying force like The Force. As far as the actaul blast is you should simply treat it as a blast of that intensity, just that Ki allows it too happen that way as well.

AGain, first, stop confusing force and energy. You're evident ignorance of proper science is getting on my nerves. All it does is tell me that you have no idea what you are talking about but trying to bullshit your way through.

Second: Because when we apply science to the observations of incidents like, say, planet killing, the observed facts demonstrate it cannot operate like how it should were it a DET. Just how difficult a concept is this for you to understand?

If you don't get what the hell we are talking about, I suggest you look at how phasers are analyzed (in particular, the NDF theory) - much of the logic applied to ki blasts (Say, in regardst o planet killing) applies to the logic used in The Die is Cast

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... heory.html

[The Yosemite Bear]

This has been HOSed an locked more then once!

pleasse do not continue with this circular logic.

Laser: It appears that some dimbulb is completly blind to everything but the "Brilliance" of his own views.

Radioactive: Warning High Bozon radiation detected.

[SirNitram]

Blind, unsupported assumption #1 here: TK comes from the person. But it doesn't. It comes from the Force, a mystic field that binds all matter in the universe, according to Yoda. ANY recoil could be spread out over thousands of lightyears, if we must find an explanation.

How exactly does that theory work? Please explain. Where exactly does the TK go when not in use? How can people move in the SW universe?

Allow me to put this in smaller words. The Force is acting on the object, not the Jedi. The Force is an energy field tens of thousands lightyears across. Where does the 'TK go'? The Force is still there, it's just not moving anything.

Blind, unsupported assumption #2 here: Ignore all the other evidence against DET(Lack of atmosphere heating, for a fucking start), and focus on the newtonian recoil one should see from a Z-fighter.

Except Ki is a form of magic! You can use it for TK, You can create illusions, all of DBZ's magic is a form of Ki manupluation..... All of the force is directed at the target, with no recol becuase its a phyics warping force in the first place.

It can warp physics all it likes, but if it does not behave like a DET blast, it will not be considered a DET blast. Maybe you're just stupid, and can't figure out how we can determine that. If this is so, we'll explain.

If not, you will be HOS'd. All threads you start on the subject will be HOS'd. And anything you hijack will be split and HOS'd. Because it's looking more and more like you're just here to be stupid and cause trouble.

[Connor MacLeod]

LEts clarify the planet killing examples and why I say they are DET.

They have several common characteristics:

1.) The recoil issue is inconsistent. A planet killing blast, however delivered, has tremendous momentum that is imparted to the person discharging, throwing, or otherwise releasing the blast . I have already cited evidence of recoil (Krillin vs Nappa, Videl learning to fly) regarding Ki energy. We have a number of stated instances that are inconsistent with this (Saiyans training under far smaller gravity fields - the highest being 450 gees, an opponent of 500 gees being a worthy adversary, and Goku unable to lift 40 tons of weight without becoming super-saiyan.) that prove that they cannot - there is no point in training under a gravitational field that is literally orders of magnitude weaker than what you are supposedly capable of.

This is true even if we assume the "recoil" of the blast is not imparted to the person - they can still "generate" the amount of force required to manuver or propel the blast - they should therefore be able to generate it under other circumstances.

2.) The abilities implicit in the ability to generate planet-shattering energy levels suggests that they should be able to withstand such attacks as well. Yet these battles rarely if ever do severe or lasting damage on a country or continentla scale, much less a global one. They don't render the planet uninhabitable. They don't reduce the ground beneath them to molten slag. They don't superheat the atmosphere or generate massive shockwaves or fireballs. The energy they absorb has to go somewhere (IE dissiapted back into the enviroment) and the attacks they redirect interact elsewhere (IE shunted aside to strike elsewhere.), and we don't see anything suggesting nearly the level of capability planet killing or planet shattring would imply, or even a fraction of that ability.

3.) The observed effects of such planet-shattering instances is inconsistent. With every Frieza example we see (Namk, Vegeta, EArth) we see the blast contact, yet it takes seconds or even minutes for the blast to even destroy the planet (in the Earth example, Frieza isn't even weakened, and the blast actually contacts the earth's surface. Hell, later on, the ball of "planet shattering" energy detonates, and it doesn't even render earth uninhabitable, much less destroy the planet!)

With the Cell examples, we see Cell hit NUMEROUS times with planet killing blasts, absorbing only a fraction of the energy, and the blast itself having almost no side effects in interacting with the planet (Cell would have had to dump the energy somewhere, after all, and the energy he DID absorb in taking damage would interact in the atmosphere in other forms.)

On top of that, when he blew up King Kai's planet, the effect was not only "Delayed" like in the Frieza examples, but the debris was actually circling around the former location of the planet, not being flung outwards at escape velocity!

[Darth_Shinji]

Second, I never once implied that there wasn't an equal/opposite reaction going on, I simply pointed out that the origin of the "field" effect is not anchored on the Jedi, and gave the proof of this. Your logic demands that TK DOES in fact act as if there is some invisible force-beam being emitted from the Force user that interacts with the target. Yet as I clearly pointed out, this is not the case.

No it doesn't. My point is that Ki beams themselves do not have to act like there acnqured to the body all of the time becuase it is a magical foce that is not explained by our phyics. Same as the Force. Where does the TK come from?

This is not true of all abilities - for example, Force lightning clearly can and does create recoil (witness Yoda's hands when he absorbs Dooku's attack in AOTC.) - this *IS* being discharged from the person.

True, but the point was all in all the Force plays by its own rules. Same as Ki, the difference here being is that you see a Ki blast as simple an energy beam wheres it is more. Its a manifistation of Ki and like the rest of Ki's uses can't be neccarly made to follow phyics.

If the blast generates force on a target, it must also generate that same amount of force on the opposite target (as with Force lightning, or your "chi blasts" - we have proof of recoil from Krillin using an energy blast to propel himself upwards when he faces Nappa in DBZ)

Why? If Ki blasts can be used to switch bodies or turn people into cholocates why does it have to follow rules it obviosly doesn't? Ki blasts are just as magical as other uses of Ki. There are no rules in normal phyics.

It is possible to generate force and energy without directly firing AT the target. But this isn't an all encompassing solution (in case you were thinking of arguing that the energy/recoil for planet-shatternig blasts doesn't come from the person - despite the fact they "push" with their energy to achieve flight as Gohan taught Videl and the aforementioned Krillin example - this would mean they are STILL capable of generating that level of force in all other examples. You would still have to explain how Goku could not move by being weighed down by 40 tons of weights, and why Saiyans would train in gravity fields of hundreds of gees if they can withstand millions.)

They train unpowered, thats a common fact. Not to mention that in a non-combat situation a supersaiyin in "blond hair" mode can be hurt be a blow by a normal human.

So?

Then why not Ki blasts? They come from a magical force to begin with, why shouldn't they have that taken into consideration. While they might appear newtonian at first you yourself have, without a doubt, proved they're not. There clearly as magical as normal Ki, so why treat them as a blaster bolt?

1.) Prove that TK behaves like a tractor beam.

Never been my point.

2.) OTher abilities vary. If you refer to examples like, say, a Force storm, a Jedi isn't discharging it as a bolt of energy (like with Force lightning.) And noone to my knowledge has claimed multi-gigaton Force lightning dischrages on the part of a Jedi. Whereas DBZers (or other similar instances of uber-wanking) want to ignore science so they can claim staggeringly huge levels of energy just because they don't understand how to properly analyze observed evidence.

Yet palpy showed no reciol at all....IIRC of course. Fact is wether it seems to come from the DBZ fighter, The Ki blast is still a form of Ki that does not adhere to phyics at all, even when it gives the apperence it does.

[Darth_Shinji]

Okay here is my question.... What type of revelence can we place on the fact that Ki blasts are not DET?

[SirNitram]

Okay here is my question.... What type of revelence can we place on the fact that Ki blasts are not DET?

First and foremost, it means you can't use the planetkilling blasts to determine how much energy a Z-fighter can release, you must use other instances.

[Darth Wong]

Okay here is my question.... What type of revelence can we place on the fact that Ki blasts are not DET?

Given what Connor is saying about these blasts, we can say that they're not powerful enough to hear the air around the target to luminescence or create any shockwaves, therefore they're distinctly sub-nuclear in actual energy content.

Their supposed ability to blow up DBZ planets (again, I remind you that I've not seen these cartoons; I'm just showing you how something is mechanically analyzed so I'm going by Connor's descriptions) would indicate a slow-acting chain reaction, like a slower version of the one the "Galaxy Gun" missiles use in Star Wars.

[Darth_Shinji]

Okay here is my question.... What type of revelence can we place on the fact that Ki blasts are not DET?

First and foremost, it means you can't use the planetkilling blasts to determine how much energy a Z-fighter can release, you must use other instances.

But if the Ki blast can at least do as much damage as say a 200gt or a 30tt blast then if you're not carrying some way of defending yourself at that level of power then the game is up. Either way.

[Darth Wong]

But if the Ki blast can at least do as much damage as say a 200gt or a 30tt blast then if you're not carrying some way of defending yourself at that level of power then the game is up. Either way.

Correct. First, you must show that the requisite effects of a 200GT or 30TT blast are present, and it doesn't look like you've done so.

[Darth_Shinji]

Okay here is my question.... What type of revelence can we place on the fact that Ki blasts are not DET?

Given what Connor is saying about these blasts, we can say that they're not powerful enough to hear the air around the target to luminescence or create any shockwaves, therefore they're distinctly sub-nuclear in actual energy content.

Their supposed ability to blow up DBZ planets (again, I remind you that I've not seen these cartoons; I'm just showing you how something is mechanically analyzed so I'm going by Connor's descriptions) would indicate a slow-acting chain reaction, like a slower version of the one the "Galaxy Gun" missiles use in Star Wars.

Okay, I see your point. I don't even want to debate you on this, I just want your opionion on this problem:

Ki blasts do not follow any rules within itself. There is no clear stable set of reactions with Ki blasts. Some times there explosive, sometimes they act as a "push" or a "cut" sometimes they allow for transfer of bodies, ect.

Basicaly they are magic and my problem is simply discounting as not a DET on the object while still messing with the rest of the laws. Whats yours?

[Darth_Shinji]

But if the Ki blast can at least do as much damage as say a 200gt or a 30tt blast then if you're not carrying some way of defending yourself at that level of power then the game is up. Either way.

Correct. First, you must show that the requisite effects of a 200GT or 30TT blast are present, and it doesn't look like you've done so.

What would count as "damage" per se? I mean Ki blasts effect there targets in varies ways. What should I look for when trying to determine that?

[Connor MacLeod]

No it doesn't. My point is that Ki beams themselves do not have to act like there acnqured to the body all of the time becuase it is a magical foce that is not explained by our phyics. Same as the Force. Where does the TK come from?

Even if we assume theere is some magical force independent of the Z-fighters propelling the bolts, they must STILL be able to generate those tremendous levels of force to begin with. Yet for some reason, Goku cannot lift 40 tons of weight, Vegeta considers 150 times human gravity a "man's" training level, and an opponent who has trained under 500 times gravity has an advantage over him!

I should note that your argument is in clear contradiction of the Krillin and Videl examples I have cited numerous times before, and you have yet to address these.

The fact is you consistently refuse to reconcile these issues, and simply blather on hoping to find some catchall escape clause.

True, but the point was all in all the Force plays by its own rules. Same as Ki, the difference here being is that you see a Ki blast as simple an energy beam wheres it is more. Its a manifistation of Ki and like the rest of Ki's uses can't be neccarly made to follow phyics.

We analyze the Force by scientific principles, which is why we generate the results like we do. If you are arguing that we cannot apply science to analyizing Ki, then we cannot achieve any reliable quantifiable results. You might as well pull numbers out of your ass for all their reliability.

Basically, if you say it violates physics, you can't argue as if you're saying it does (which is basically what you're trying to do.)

Why? If Ki blasts can be used to switch bodies or turn people into cholocates why does it have to follow rules it obviosly doesn't? Ki blasts are just as magical as other uses of Ki. There are no rules in normal phyics.

Its not the Ki blasts that are doing it. Ki might have more than one application, but it doesnt mean that what they use in offense is the same mechanism used in everything else. ARe you going to argue that Precognition is somehow a manifestation of their telekinetic abilities? Or that they read mind by discharging little bursts of Force lightning into the target?

In other words, The Force can be used for lots of differnet purposes: healing, reading minds, telekinesis, precognition, absorbing and dissipating energy, and so on, and so can Ki. But it doesn't mean you use a raw blast of energy or thousands of newtons worth of force to read a mind or predict the future.

Again, if you want to dismiss the "rules" as you call them, you can't analyze it. Pure and simple. You do understand that debates DO call for a measure of consistency right? Or is it your opinion that subjective impressions and selective interpretation are valid in debates?

They train unpowered, thats a common fact. Not to mention that in a non-combat situation a supersaiyin in "blond hair" mode can be hurt be a blow by a normal human.

Vegeta trained under 150 gravities while Super Saiyan. King Kai stated flat out that super-saiyan transformations increase abilities, strength, and speed by "several times" - yet what you are arguing requires an increase of orders of magnitude! Goku even as a super saiyan would STILL not be able to handle a planet-killing blast.

And they have claimed "planet killing" abilities even before being powered up. (Vegeta and his Gallic gun, Piccolo supposedly blowing up the moon, Roshi blowing up the moon.) Yet whjen Goku trains with King Kai, he has trouble moving in a 10 gravity field.

There's also Goku traveling to Namek. Goku is glued to the top of his ship and is on a kamikaze run towards a sun, so he uses a Kaio-Ken 10x (and later, x20) Kamehameha to propel the ship away. Yet he's at best making a few dozen meters per second, maybe a few hundred kilometers at best. Supposedly a planet-killing blast is achievable at Kaio-Ken 3 and above (Again, Vegeta and the Gallic Gun example), but if this were so, Goku would have been propelled away from the sun at relatavistic speeds, even if for some ludicrous reason this ship thousands of tons, tens of thousand of tons, or more!

And what about Pikkon's attack against Goku? During the battle, Goku is hit with Pikkon's strongest move, the "Thunderflash attack". Goku explicitly states "I couldn't block against any of it!" Yet he's not flung out of the arena - and he's a frigging SUPER SAIYAN!

Sorry, your logic doesn't fly.

Then why not Ki blasts? They come from a magical force to begin with, why shouldn't they have that taken into consideration. While they might appear newtonian at first you yourself have, without a doubt, proved they're not. There clearly as magical as normal Ki, so why treat them as a blaster bolt?

Because your logic is a violation of suspension of disbelief and science, and you don't realize it. You're trying to basically have your cake and eat it as well, on the logic that "everyone else does." Yet the only evident fact here is your own deliberate ignorance of what REALLY is going on, and the persistence you show in refusing to see facts.

Your "consideration" is little mroe than an effort to change the rules of the debate to give yourself convenient excuses to ignore science, and they make no difference to objective analysis of DBZ OR Star Wars, or Hellsing.

Never been my point.

Its what you're arguing. you claim that if the Force can lift multi ton objects, it woudl also act on the Force user, did you not?

Yet palpy showed no reciol at all....IIRC of course. Fact is wether it seems to come from the DBZ fighter, The Ki blast is still a form of Ki that does not adhere to phyics at all, even when it gives the apperence it does.

1.) Which example of palpatine are you referring to? If you want to discuss ROTJ, I can point out numerous examples that limit the output of energy Palpy might need or employ to kill Luke - it doesn't require megatons or gigatons worth of energy to do so, much less planet killing.

Yet the usual DBZer logic claims that the Z-fighters are super powerful because they destroy planets. IE they can generate the massive energy and force levels inherent to such a capability if it were DET, despite the massive contradictions of such a claim, and despite the fact that planet-destructions have been explicitly SHOWN to be Non-DET in that vary same canon!

Again, your whole point seems to be to accuse a number of us of some sort of inherent bias in our analysis that you claim DBZers are not allowed to employ, which just shows how damn ignorant you are of what the situation really is. I suggest you stop arguing if you do not have the ability to figure out what the fuck it is is going on, otherwise you're just going to make yourself look like a bigger ass than you already have.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually calling DBZ Ki/Chi is an insult....

I mean I can tap Chi enough through self discipline that Dogs/Bees don't bother me at all (I did work at a bee farm during the summers when I was in High School.) I can send a focused quick strike kick. Of course I took Tae Kwan Do/Akido to learn how to deal with some emotional problems, and learned how to control myself somewhat.

Chi is really about controling one's self, focusing your own reserves of adrenaline, or calming yourself so that your pheremones don't upset any animals. There is no violation of the laws of physics.

[Darth Wong]

Okay, I see your point. I don't even want to debate you on this, I just want your opionion on this problem:

Ki blasts do not follow any rules within itself. There is no clear stable set of reactions with Ki blasts. Some times there explosive, sometimes they act as a "push" or a "cut" sometimes they allow for transfer of bodies, ect.

Basicaly they are magic and my problem is simply discounting as not a DET on the object while still messing with the rest of the laws. Whats yours?

Let's put it this way: if I had a magic spell which could produce a 20 megaton blast, it would still be a 20 megaton blast even though it came from a magic spell. However, I must still show that it does, in fact, produce the effects of a 20 megaton blast.

[Darth Wong]

What would count as "damage" per se? I mean Ki blasts effect there targets in varies ways. What should I look for when trying to determine that?

The term "20GT" is a measure of energy. If you put that much energy in one place, it must manifest itself, otherwise you ... cannot say that it was there. That much energy will manifest itself in various ways inside an atmosphere, most obviously in the creation of an enormous white-hot fireball which vapourizes anything it touches (and stays there for quite a while), followed by an enormous shockwave.

[Connor MacLeod]

Basically he's saying that in an atmosphere, you look for various side effects. Dumpnig a large amount of energy into the ground, for example, will have varying degrees of effects (if it shatters the ground, you would see debris fly up. Melting would show glowing, molten debris. Vaporization would show superheated vapor.) you owuld have a crater of a certain size (variable somewhat depending on the mechanism - ie vaporization or melting, and the volume affected.)

You would also have side effects. Interactions of large amounts of energy with air would lead to fireballs, which would last for as long as it took for the energy to be radiated away. Sufficiently large levels of energy (IE like those accompanying NEO asteroid impacts, or "planet killing" events) might have even more noticiable, global effects.

the way the energy is delivered can also be a factor. Generally a "grenade" or "bomb" like delivery is somewhat more "flexible" in terms of energy than a delivery method comparable to an energy weapon like a laser or particle beam (or a bullet), but there is STILL recoil - you have to throw the projectile, and the speed is going to be a factor in recoil, as well as the mass. And energy still has mass.

For example, in Darth Wong's "NDF theory" page, Mike discusses the issue of momentum with "The Die is Cast" - he proves that DET is disproved because of the lack of observed momentum such a massive bombardment as some Trekkies have claimed would generate.


In short, you have to look at ALL the relevant factors in doing observations of evidence - which is alot more involved and trickier than it sounds. But if you are uncertain, a good guide as to how to handle things is by observing how inconsistencies are resolved in Trek - of which numerous examples should be available on this site.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ok, another fun factiod, I know a woman who knows pressure point/soft techniques. This is simply knowing where to strike to effect the body of a person. She can easily disable some much larger then herself with a simple "Touch".

There is no "magic" to pressure points.

[Darth_Shinji]

Okay, I finally think I understand your position on this Darth Wong, not agree as of yet, but I do think I see what you are trying to tell me. I'll sleep on it and try to give you a cohent answer tommor.

Let my try a very simple version of my way of thinking so you can give me an opening opionion...I think what it is is that you see it as "If you can't prove it was the exact way then it can't (Or maybe the word should be "shouldn't"?) be considered this amount of energy." While I'm thinking "If you can't prove differently, why not?" The problem being what if I had a spell that delivered 22mts directly too the target and nothing else is affected by that 22mts? In the end that magic spell would only have to follow the rules of that magic system and not our rules of plain phyics. I relise there might not be a way of comprimising our specific veiwpoints. And my way might even be the wrong way of veiwing things. But I would like to at least have both of us seeing from the others veiw point. Even if we never agree.