Lord of the Rings creature question

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-14 02:32am

I just rented TTT on DVD and among other things watched the special feature on creating the creatures. However one thing has me baffled, the very large multi tusked elephant like animals we see briefly are said to be "Mlimakil/Oliphalints". However neither name seems to be used anywhere else for them, though the term "Olephant" showed up once or twice in web searches. Personally I can't remember anything about them from the books expect that some elephant like creature was present, I believe. So can anyone clear up what the real name is and where it came from?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-09-14 02:45am

The real name is Oliphaunt, or alternately Mumak in the tongue of Harad (Mumakil is plural).

Yes, it's pretty much a common elephant.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-09-14 02:45am

Try "Oliphaunt" and you should find it. It's from Book IV, Chapter 3 "The Black Gate Is Closed." Samwise quotes a rhyme concerning them when Gollum asks what one is.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-09-14 03:06am

Doesn't "Oliphaunt" mean elephant in Medieval French?

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-14 03:28am

Sam also sees an Oliphaunt when Faramir's men ambush the Haradrim heading north on the road to the Morannon.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-14 04:28am

Crayz9000 wrote:The real name is Oliphaunt, or alternately Mumak in the tongue of Harad (Mumakil is plural).

Okay, Oliphaunt has turned up lots of stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.

Try "Oliphaunt" and you should find it. It's from Book IV, Chapter 3 "The Black Gate Is Closed." Samwise quotes a rhyme concerning them when Gollum asks what one is.

Unfortunately I'm separated from my copy of the book for the moment so I couldn't check out the appropriate chapter or the index.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-09-14 09:42am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Unfortunately I'm separated from my copy of the book for the moment so I couldn't check out the appropriate chapter or the index.

I know how that is: I moved not that long ago, and my copy was in a box in the basement.

Dalton wrote:Sam also sees an Oliphaunt when Faramir's men ambush the Haradrim heading north on the road to the Morannon.

I only saw that after I had posted... I debated a second post with the quote from that section, but I've got my hands full in another thread. From my quick glance, it sounds like the "Mumak" they saw was bigger than the average Oliphaunt.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-09-14 09:55am

I thought Oliphaunts were like eliphants but way huger?

I thought that when reading the book and it definately looked that way with the haradrim ninjas in ttt.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-14 02:14pm

Rye wrote:I thought Oliphaunts were like eliphants but way huger?

I thought that when reading the book and it definately looked that way with the haradrim ninjas in ttt.

Somewhat larger than the ones we see but not unnaturally so like in the film. I think Tolkien was basing them off the ancient war elephants which were African Elephants rather than the Asian variety. They were both larger and fiercer.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-14 04:12pm

Seems like they was based on a Mammoth in ways.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-14 04:41pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Seems like they was based on a Mammoth in ways.

Not really. They were based on the historical war-elephant. There's nothing to suggest they were anything but.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-09-14 04:56pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Rye wrote:I thought Oliphaunts were like eliphants but way huger?

I thought that when reading the book and it definately looked that way with the haradrim ninjas in ttt.
Somewhat larger than the ones we see but not unnaturally so like in the film. I think Tolkien was basing them off the ancient war elephants which were African Elephants rather than the Asian variety. They were both larger and fiercer.

I do not have access to my copy of TT at the moment, but I do believe that Tokien describes the Mumak as the Largest (and last?) of his kind, a great beast that could carry a hundred men within the castle carried upon his back. The way I read it was this particular Oliphaunt was Freakin' HUGE, larger than ever seen before or since.

I also believe there was some mention of how the Mumak, wounded, fled for miles and was seen in Rohan? I could be very wrong there.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-14 05:04pm

LadyTevar wrote:I do not have access to my copy of TT at the moment, but I do believe that Tokien describes the Mumak as the Largest (and last?) of his kind, a great beast that could carry a hundred men within the castle carried upon his back. The way I read it was this particular Oliphaunt was Freakin' HUGE, larger than ever seen before or since.

I also believe there was some mention of how the Mumak, wounded, fled for miles and was seen in Rohan? I could be very wrong there.

The one Sam saw was indeed freaking huge though I'm not sure about the hundred men thing. The greatest and one of the last of his kind. He did indeed rampagne for miles though I don't think he made it to Rohan proper. Of course some of that might have been exageration on Sam's part. It is more or less from his POV that we see the incident.

I wish Hemlock or some one who knew more than I could provide some information on War Elephants.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-14 05:07pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Somewhat larger than the ones we see but not unnaturally so like in the film.

Making them 100 feet tall was rather excessive, heck the largest land mammal ever was only about a sixth of that.

I think Tolkien was basing them off the ancient war elephants which were African Elephants rather than the Asian variety. They were both larger and fiercer.

Not all war elephants where African, Asians where used for the task as well in southern Asia. Thailand was actually still using them into the gunpowder age, which the elephants armed with a huge musket of sorts, almost a small cannon.

Certainly though Tolkien was simply recreating war elephants of the European and northern African style. And nothing in the books requires them to be any larger then normal elephants.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-14 05:12pm

LadyTevar wrote:
I do not have access to my copy of TT at the moment, but I do believe that Tokien describes the Mumak as the Largest (and last?) of his kind, a great beast that could carry a hundred men within the castle carried upon his back. The way I read it was this particular Oliphaunt was Freakin' HUGE, larger than ever seen before or since.

I found my copy, and while it does mention there being the ruins of a "small war tower" on its back there's no mention of any people, it was abandon and already running by the time Sam and Frodo saw it. 100 would be a quite huge number, that many would likely be hard pressed to fight from even the huge movie version.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-09-14 05:24pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Seems like they was based on a Mammoth in ways.
Not really. They were based on the historical war-elephant. There's nothing to suggest they were anything but.

I always pictured them as surviving Dienotherium (Ancient elephants that were a little larger and had odd tusk arangements). But that was just me...

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-14 05:26pm

Tolkien wrote:Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to him, a grey-clad moving hill. Fear and wonder, amybe, enlarged him in the hobbit's eyes, but the Mumak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty

It does point out that they are larger than modern elephants. It also mentions that a warrior, "giant among the Southrons" was a "tiny figure" high upon the creature's neck.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-14 05:47pm

Stormbringer wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:I also believe there was some mention of how the Mumak, wounded, fled for miles and was seen in Rohan? I could be very wrong there.
He did indeed rampagne for miles though I don't think he made it to Rohan proper. Of course some of that might have been exageration on Sam's part. It is more or less from his POV that we see the incident.

I think there were legends of it being spotted in Ithilien, maybe?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-09-14 06:08pm

Dalton wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:I also believe there was some mention of how the Mumak, wounded, fled for miles and was seen in Rohan? I could be very wrong there.
He did indeed rampagne for miles though I don't think he made it to Rohan proper. Of course some of that might have been exageration on Sam's part. It is more or less from his POV that we see the incident.
I think there were legends of it being spotted in Ithilien, maybe?

That might be what I'm remembering, yes.

There is only one way to figure out how big that Oliphaunt was, you know. We must go to the chapter in question, and try to extrapolate from how big a 'small war tower' could be, and how tall the 'giant amongst Southrons' was.

Now, this may help to figure out the Southron's size, if the old MiddleEarth RPG by IronCrown Entertainments is allowed. I do believe that gave size ranges for all the people of ME.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-14 07:21pm

The book doesn't mention the war tower as being small either.

Tolkien wrote:The ruins of what seemed a very war-towerlay upon his heaving back

It's a construction that could pass for a war-tower, but wasn't the same kind of thing.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-15 11:53pm

LadyTevar wrote: There is only one way to figure out how big that Oliphaunt was, you know. We must go to the chapter in question, and try to extrapolate from how big a 'small war tower' could be, and how tall the 'giant amongst Southrons' was.

That really requires too many guesses to be pointful, what we'd up end with is what we already know, somewhere between elephant sized and fucking huge sized.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-09-16 03:57pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
LadyTevar wrote: There is only one way to figure out how big that Oliphaunt was, you know. We must go to the chapter in question, and try to extrapolate from how big a 'small war tower' could be, and how tall the 'giant amongst Southrons' was.
That really requires too many guesses to be pointful, what we'd up end with is what we already know, somewhere between elephant sized and fucking huge sized.

I vote for the 'F-king huge'

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-09-16 04:35pm

Didn't they show up in the attack on Gondor as well, or is that my faulty memory at work?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-16 04:47pm

beyond hope wrote:Didn't they show up in the attack on Gondor as well, or is that my faulty memory at work?

Yup, there in use hauling around siege engines. And the preview of ROTK on the TTT DVD showed animators working on one of them so it's a pretty sure thing they'll show up in the movie.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-16 05:57pm

RotK describes them as being involved in the attack on Gondor, but Aragorn says that they were all slain, much to Sam's disapointment; as he was unable to find one in Mordor, it seems likely that there were very few of them left, or that only a few came out of Harad.