The Horde from the East (Uruk Hai vs)

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-20 04:18pm

What would the results have been if during the time of the mongol horde that swept from the East instead of the mongols we have Ururk Hai led by a leader as intelleigent as charismatic as Genghis Kahn. These Uruk Hai are armed like the ones we saw in the movie and look just like them too.

The Medieval armies of man have never faced Uruk Hai before.

What happens? Are there significant differences in the extent of the mongols' historical achievements and conquests. Will these monsters break Medieval army morale just by their appearance and beastial natures or will the armies of man eventually recover their wits and fight back.

How does the non cavalry nature of the Uruk Hai change the Medieval armies ability to fight, essentially they are facing hordes of pikemen.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-09-20 04:25pm

Uruk-hai get owned quickly.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-09-20 04:29pm

I think the Europeans would have a much easier time against the Uruk-Hai than the Mongols. No swift horsemen to deal with, no mounted archers. The Uruks don't seem to have calavry of any kind.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-20 04:34pm

Mark S wrote:I think the Europeans would have a much easier time against the Uruk-Hai than the Mongols. No swift horsemen to deal with, no mounted archers. The Uruks don't seem to have calavry of any kind.

True but considering European armies reliance on heavy cavalry at the time, wouldn't massive pike formations of bestial humans create diffculties for the knights to directly attack and can you get peasant levies to go in there and mix it up with the Uruks?

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-09-20 04:49pm

Stravo wrote:True but considering European armies reliance on heavy cavalry at the time, wouldn't massive pike formations of bestial humans create diffculties for the knights to directly attack and can you get peasant levies to go in there and mix it up with the Uruks?

I think the European armies would have experience dealing with pike formations. I would think that was a large part of what they had to contend with in their warfare. As for the conscripts, sure they'd be pissing themselves but it wouldn't be hard to convince them that if they didn't fight now, they'd sure as hell be fighting later when their homes were being over run and their families slaughtered. That and the standard 'the archers behind you will shoot you if you try to run away' argument.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-20 04:54pm

The Uruk-hai would be very powerful, but not nearly so much as the Mongols and would end up defeated through attrition. Though I have doubts about there ability to sustain themselves. The Mongol hoard could spread and move over vast areas to obtain food and fodder from, while a heavy infantry force will be more limited in its ability to do so.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-20 05:02pm

Stravo wrote:
True but considering European armies reliance on heavy cavalry at the time, wouldn't massive pike formations of bestial humans create diffculties for the knights to directly attack and can you get peasant levies to go in there and mix it up with the Uruks?

Massed pikes will easily defeat massed heavy cavalry. However as I recall the book Uruk Hai didn't have pikes, and only a small fraction of the movie ones did. They also seemed to be highly venerable to arrows, which where often punching clear through there chest plates despite the tips being fairly fat as I recall. European armys fielded quite large numbers of archers, though they were secondary to the cavalry.

On a different note the Uruk Hai seemed to be very deficient in siege equipment and would have a hard time storming any European fortress.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-20 05:36pm

What about numbers? The Uruks had a Freaking HUGE army (we ARE talking about Saruman's army, right? or is this the combined army of Sauron AND Saruman?) ...were the mongol hordes as large? Let us not forget the runner with the torch who ignited the bomb thingy under helms deep took three or four direct hits with an elvish bow and still kept up his mad charge to the culvert. most of the ones who dropped dead from arrow hits were either unarmored or shot in the head/face throat area....
I gotta get my ROTK novelization from work to see if I can get more descriptions of the seige engines and whatnot...
Uruks have cavalry. Wargs....okay, they were orcs....conceeded...(sp?)

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-09-20 07:14pm

Chardok wrote:What about numbers? The Uruks had a Freaking HUGE army (we ARE talking about Saruman's army, right? or is this the combined army of Sauron AND Saruman?) ...were the mongol hordes as large?

Only Saruman had Uruks, IIRC.

Let us not forget the runner with the torch who ignited the bomb thingy under helms deep took three or four direct hits with an elvish bow and still kept up his mad charge to the culvert. most of the ones who dropped dead from arrow hits were either unarmored or shot in the head/face throat area....

If you want to go by the movie, then the Uruk army is a measly 10,000

I gotta get my ROTK novelization from work to see if I can get more descriptions of the seige engines and whatnot...
Uruks have cavalry. Wargs....okay, they were orcs....conceeded...(sp?)

RotK NOVELIZATION?!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-09-20 07:50pm

Archers ready! LOOSE!!!

The shats of arrows sped from their knocks, the sound of bowstrings momentarily drowning out the sounds of the oncomming horde. The arrows climbed, and fell, they whistled as they descended giving the Uruk' Hai just enough time to contemplate their own deaths, as arrow shafts punched through their armor and burried deep inside their chests, shoulders and faces.

Their screams were deafening

Ready! LOOSE!

And a second volly was fired. And before the cries of anguish had even faded from the battlefield, the next sheet of steel bodkins tore through the Uruk'Hai ranks.

CHARGE!!!!

Heavy cavalry, clad in chain-mail, wielding lance and sword, and carrying large wodden shield leaped into battle, charging across the field toward the embaattled greenskins.

Te Uruk' Hai had recovered somewhat, and pikemen were getting into formation. But the armies of men had something different planned.

LOOSE! And a third volley of arrows sped toward the Uruks... They hit the front lines like a tsunami, ripping hough everything they hit.

It was then that the mounted warriors collided with the Uruk Infantry, they ripped through the panicked horde like a club through tissue paper. The Uruk' Hai could not withstand the charge, they broke and ran, panicked like over sized children. Their cries carried toward the archers several hundred yards away... They knew the noblmen on horseback would take the credit for te victory, but they took solace in the fact that, had it not been for their arrows, their betters would have been impaled on pikes....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-20 07:51pm

Chardok wrote:What about numbers? The Uruks had a Freaking HUGE army (we ARE talking about Saruman's army, right? or is this the combined army of Sauron AND Saruman?)

Only Saruman had Ururk Hai and his army was hardly huge even by the standards of medieval Europe. However I'm assuming this is a one for one replacement of the Mongolas, otherwise the Ururk Hai would be lucky to even reach the western boarder of Europe. As for the army of Sauron, its size seems greatly exaggerated.

...were the mongol hordes as large?

They where far larger

[/quote]
Let us not forget the runner with the torch who ignited the bomb thingy under helms deep took three or four direct hits with an elvish bow and still kept up his mad charge to the culvert.[/quote]

Shoulder hits you might notice, theres nothing instatly incapacitating present there.

most of the ones who dropped dead from arrow hits were either unarmored or shot in the head/face throat area....

The movie did not show a single unarmored Ururk Hai. And it did show a great many shots going through there chest plates, which should be the strongest section of there armor.

I gotta get my ROTK novelization from work to see if I can get more descriptions of the seige engines and whatnot...

Think about what you just said; then consider how stupid it is.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-20 10:06pm

Well, the Uruk-hai themselves weren't really the whole of Sauron's might. They were just his heavy infantry. Sauron used Wainriders from the East as heavy cavalry and orcs on wargs as light cavalry. He also employed Haradrim on Oliphaunts, which were very dangerous.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-20 10:08pm

Chardok wrote:I gotta get my ROTK novelization from work to see if I can get more descriptions of the seige engines and whatnot...

Do you mind if I sig this for posterity?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-21 12:24am

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, the Uruk-hai themselves weren't really the whole of Sauron's might. They were just his heavy infantry. Sauron used Wainriders from the East as heavy cavalry and orcs on wargs as light cavalry. He also employed Haradrim on Oliphaunts, which were very dangerous.

Sauron had NO Uruk-hai period. They where specifically created and bred by Saruman for his own army. The two forces were separate and this scenario only involves one.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-21 12:53am

Just to clear it up quickly I am talking about 1 to 1 subsitution of Uruks for Mongols. I am specifying only that they are precsiely like the movie Uruks we see

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-21 01:00am

I think in RotK it mentions 'Uruks' in Mordor; and Sauron's army is indeed massive. He was attacking the West on several fronts, and the army that was crushed at Minas Tirith was just a feeler; he had enormous reserves, which was why the Captains set out for the Gates- unless they could buy Frodo some time, they were all doomed anyway.

That said, the Uruk Hai will be much, much less mobile than the Mongols, and probably much, much more susceptible to medieval tactics.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-21 01:05am

Chardok wrote:most of the ones who dropped dead from arrow hits were either unarmored or shot in the head/face throat area....

And yes, he fell down.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-21 01:10am

There thick armor is even thinner then I remember.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-21 01:13am

Sea Skimmer wrote:There thick armor is even thinner then I remember.

But their shields are broad.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-21 01:14am

Stravo wrote:Just to clear it up quickly I am talking about 1 to 1 subsitution of Uruks for Mongols. I am specifying only that they are precsiely like the movie Uruks we see

So, we take the Mongol army, substitute it with an equal number of men but with far fewer bowmen, useless armour, "swords" that don't even have a sharp edge on them, pitiful close-quarters combat skills which invariably give them a terrible kill ratio, a miniscule fraction of the Mongols' mobility, and a propensity for becoming piss-weak in sunlight?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-21 01:16am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:Just to clear it up quickly I am talking about 1 to 1 subsitution of Uruks for Mongols. I am specifying only that they are precsiely like the movie Uruks we see
So, we take the Mongol army, substitute it with an equal number of men but with far fewer bowmen, useless armour, "swords" that don't even have a sharp edge on them, pitiful close-quarters combat skills which invariably give them a terrible kill ratio, a miniscule fraction of the Mongols' mobility, and a propensity for becoming piss-weak in sunlight?

You do have a gift for the concise I'll grant you that.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-21 01:24am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:Just to clear it up quickly I am talking about 1 to 1 subsitution of Uruks for Mongols. I am specifying only that they are precsiely like the movie Uruks we see
So, we take the Mongol army, substitute it with an equal number of men but with far fewer bowmen, useless armour, "swords" that don't even have a sharp edge on them, pitiful close-quarters combat skills which invariably give them a terrible kill ratio, a miniscule fraction of the Mongols' mobility, and a propensity for becoming piss-weak in sunlight?

There's still a fuckload of them though. But unless they get to keep the Chinese's engineers the Mongols kept on hand to conduct sieges the whole army will probably die off waiting to starve out some cites in the east.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-21 01:25am

No one thinks we'll have morale issues getting people to fight honest to god monsters?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-21 01:37am

Stravo wrote:No one thinks we'll have morale issues getting people to fight honest to god monsters?

I think the problem will be keeping everyone from stumbling over each other in the rush to slaughter them all.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-21 01:38am

First time the Uruks get bitchslapped, the morale factor evaporates.