Wheel of Time

[mantakai]

has anyone read the wheel of time by Robert Jordan (I'm pretty sure that's the author) if so what are your opinions?

and also is it just me or does it seem like he has given up. the first few books were full of action then they started to die out a little untill eventually there was really just an action packed ending. the last book though, number 10 i believe just ended. it just stopped. like that last sentence, no excitement of anything just bam, put down his pen and gave up and there has been no word of the next book. I'm mightily annoyed

[Imperial Overlord]

read the jumped the shark thread.

[Eleas]

read the jumped the shark thread.

Wow. That must be the worst directions I've ever heard, seen or imagined.

[Elheru Aran]

has anyone read the wheel of time by Robert Jordan (I'm pretty sure that's the author) if so what are your opinions?

and also is it just me or does it seem like he has given up. the first few books were full of action then they started to die out a little untill eventually there was really just an action packed ending. the last book though, number 10 i believe just ended. it just stopped. like that last sentence, no excitement of anything just bam, put down his pen and gave up and there has been no word of the next book. I'm mightily annoyed

Robert Jordan has stated that there will be a total of 12 books, I believe; the next one (#11) should appear sometime next year or in 2006, not sure.

And you're pretty much on target with your analysis; the general consensus seems to be that the first few books were pretty good, if lengthy, but after around book four or so, they just got too long-winded and shit; not enough action to compensate. It was basically "A goes somewhere with B, bitching all the way, C stays where he is and bitches, D goes somewhere else and bitches, E goes with D but gets lost and ends up somewhere else with A and B, yadda-yadda-yadda, and somehow or other they all meet up in the end and have a big knock-down-drag-out that's wound up in three pages at the end of the chapter"...

I still think he's a pretty good writer; his only flaw is he's so long-winded, and also, he doesn't really give much thought to his plotlines-- they go all over the place, and languish over several books (ie, Mat's whole thing with the foxes, the Daughter of the Nine Moons, et al). What he seriously needs is a good editor.... IIRC, his first few books were released pretty much together and were edited by his wife, but after that, his books were more or less released as he had originally written them, without more than simple grammar and spelling checks. He just needs someone who's willing to go through his manuscript with a red or blue pencil...

[Eleas]

I still think he's a pretty good writer; his only flaw is he's so long-winded, and also, he doesn't really give much thought to his plotlines-- they go all over the place, and languish over several books (ie, Mat's whole thing with the foxes, the Daughter of the Nine Moons, et al). What he seriously needs is a good editor.... IIRC, his first few books were released pretty much together and were edited by his wife, but after that, his books were more or less released as he had originally written them, without more than simple grammar and spelling checks. He just needs someone who's willing to go through his manuscript with a red or blue pencil...

Possibly, if one compares him to fanfic authors or Mike Stackpole, Robert Jordan appears competent. Looking at other giants of the genre (we're talking literary quality here, folks, not volume), Jordan is easily distinguishable as a rank amateur.

[Stormbringer]

has anyone read the wheel of time by Robert Jordan (I'm pretty sure that's the author) if so what are your opinions?

I've read them all, including the prequel. I like them over all. However I think after Lord of Chaos they become pretty uneven and a lot of that is the result of the bad editing. After that he simply wasn't edited as he should have been. Still, I like the series and have continued to follow it.

and also is it just me or does it seem like he has given up. the first few books were full of action then they started to die out a little untill eventually there was really just an action packed ending. the last book though, number 10 i believe just ended. it just stopped. like that last sentence, no excitement of anything just bam, put down his pen and gave up and there has been no word of the next book. I'm mightily annoyed

There's been plenty of word on the next mainline book, Knife of Dreams. It's a matter of knowing where to look, the Jordan Newsgroup has had plenty for spoilers and the like.

[Stormbringer]

Possibly, if one compares him to fanfic authors or Mike Stackpole, Robert Jordan appears competent. Looking at other giants of the genre (we're talking literary quality here, folks, not volume), Jordan is easily distinguishable as a rank amateur.

I would highly disagree. His first books in Wheel of Time, as well as the Conan novels, were all great reads. I'd easily put them as well above average for fantasy, barring Martin I can't think of fantasy novelist that was any better and plenty that were worse. His problem is that he really hasn't been properly edited for a long time; that's killed him because it's made for a lot of unnecessary plotlines. When he avoids those he can do just fine, New Spring is proof of that.

There's no author in the world that can pull of a series as long as that entirely on their own. Jordan isn't an amateur or a lousy author, he just hasn't been given the input he really needs by the people that should be giving it.

[Eleas]

I would highly disagree. His first books in Wheel of Time, as well as the Conan novels, were all great reads. I'd easily put them as well above average for fantasy, barring Martin I can't think of fantasy novelist that was any better and plenty that were worse.

I can. With a prefrontal lobotomy, after a blow to the head, on thorazine.

Guy Gavriel Kay. Philip Pullman. Jack Vance. Roger Zelazny. John Betancourt. Stephen Brust. Stephen Donaldson. *thinks for a second* Robert fucking Howard. Tim Powers. JRR Tolkien, who spinneth in his grave. Poul Anderson. Terry Pratchett. Neil Gaiman.

I read his travesty on Conan. What little I saw before tearing my eyes away was the same dreck that suffuses the Hamster Wheel of Time.

His problem is that he really hasn't been properly edited for a long time; that's killed him because it's made for a lot of unnecessary plotlines. When he avoids those he can do just fine, New Spring is proof of that.

You'll forgive me if I don't verify that in person.

There's no author in the world that can pull of a series as long as that entirely on their own. Jordan isn't an amateur or a lousy author, he just hasn't been given the input he really needs by the people that should be giving it.

An author who writes like that should really know better. To contend that he should have been told by others is, frankly, mad. An author isn't a child or a computer. It's not a damn operating error if the result is subpar or The Wheel of Time.

[Stormbringer]

I can. With a prefrontal lobotomy, after a blow to the head, on thorazine.

Guy Gavriel Kay. Philip Pullman. Jack Vance. Roger Zelazny. John Betancourt. Stephen Brust. Stephen Donaldson. *thinks for a second* Robert fucking Howard. Tim Powers. JRR Tolkien, who spinneth in his grave. Poul Anderson. Terry Pratchett. Neil Gaiman.

Pardon me if I ask who the hell are they to most of them; an author with a few cultists doesn't terribly impress me for being good. If you want to talk about minor authors like then, yeah, maybe there are some better.

And most aren't exactly modern fantasy writers either. At least several are a half century or so in the grave.

You'll forgive me if I don't verify that in person.

An author who writes like that should really know better. To contend that he should have been told by others is, frankly, mad. An author isn't a child or a computer. It's not a damn operating error if the result is subpar or The Wheel of Time.

Nice double standard. You do know that's it's standard procedure to have an editor, if not several, right? G.R.R. Martin actually makes a point of thanking his editors. Tolkien ran his works by numerous people as well as revising much for decades himself. You might subscribe to the idea of the lone genius hunched over a typewriter in splendid isolation but it hasn't happened in a century or two. Editors are a fact of life in modern publishing and they really do play as big a part as the author. When an editor doesn't do their job it can make the diference between gold and shit.

[Imperial Overlord]

The only name I don't recognize is Betancourt and I agree that they are all better than Jordan. Only Zelazny and Howard are dead and Zelazny has only been dead a few years.

If a writer like Ann Rice or Jordan who has a built in audience of people who will buy the book anyway, they can insist on not having an editor when they get delusions of grandeur. The publishing company will do it rather than throw away millions of dollars in certain income and having another company pick it up. The writers I have met have told me that that particular phenomena can occur at the top paying levels of the field.

[Imperial Overlord]

Oh and that Martin is smart enough to value his editors isn't surprising. His writing is still good.

[Jalinth]

An author who writes like that should really know better. To contend that he should have been told by others is, frankly, mad. An author isn't a child or a computer. It's not a damn operating error if the result is subpar or The Wheel of Time.

Nice double standard. You do know that's it's standard procedure to have an editor, if not several, right? G.R.R. Martin actually makes a point of thanking his editors. Tolkien ran his works by numerous people as well as revising much for decades himself. You might subscribe to the idea of the lone genius hunched over a typewriter in splendid isolation but it hasn't happened in a century or two. Editors are a fact of life in modern publishing and they really do play as big a part as the author. When an editor doesn't do their job it can make the diference between gold and shit.

My main question is why doesn't Jordan have an editor? I doubt that his publisher would have any problem with assigning the best they have (he does sell after all). You can't force an author to have an editor, especially once they become a power unto themselves and can say - no editor or no deal. So likely Jordan has to be held personally responsible for much of the mess his books have become. If the publishers didn't try to get him to run his manuscripts through an editor, then they should be hung by their thumbs as punishment.

I agree that Jordan's first few books were very interesting. Then the plot lines started to multiply, entangle with each other, and basically bog down the series. Too many characters popped up that I didn't care about. He basically has trashed my enjoyment of the first 4 books or so (I read up until book 7 or to the point that Robert Jordan is now on my "do not read" list. I know of others who feel the same way. Sad to think that allowing an editor in could have saved the series.

[Mark S]

I have to side with Eleas on this. I read Wheel of Time and had no desire to pick up any of the other titles. In a genre riddled with Lord of the Rings copiers that book smacked too much of a copy.

[Sir Sirius]

I read the first half of the seventh book (A Crown of Swords), but then, as I once was picking the book up again to start reading it, I realized that I did not care one bit about the characters, the plot or the outcome of the series and that I infact had come to view reading the damn thing as somekind of a chore. Luckily, unlike cleaning every once in a while, this was one chore I could just forget about. Jordans been on my "Not Worth Reading" list since.

[Eleas]

Pardon me if I ask who the hell are they to most of them; an author with a few cultists doesn't terribly impress me for being good. If you want to talk about minor authors like then, yeah, maybe there are some better.

These are not "minor" authors, numbnuts. These are hugo and nebula award winners and their like, not that you'd know what that means in the first place. They are absolute classics in every sense of the word, and to dismiss them as you do is roughly on par with a film student claiming Kurosawa and Leone were nobodies because their movies aren't rolling in mainstream cinema today.

And most aren't exactly modern fantasy writers either. At least several are a half century or so in the grave.

Already debunked as a hasty, ill-informed generalization.

Nice double standard. You do know that's it's standard procedure to have an editor, if not several, right? G.R.R. Martin actually makes a point of thanking his editors. Tolkien ran his works by numerous people as well as revising much for decades himself. You might subscribe to the idea of the lone genius hunched over a typewriter in splendid isolation but it hasn't happened in a century or two. Editors are a fact of life in modern publishing and they really do play as big a part as the author. When an editor doesn't do their job it can make the diference between gold and shit.

No, I don't subscribe to your strawman, sorry. Every one in this thread, except apparently you, seem to perfectly understand what I was saying. Namely, that Jordan is responsible for his own fucking writing, or whatever one would like to call it. It is thus the fault of his own sloppiness, arrogance or bad judgement (whichever it may be) that the finished product isn't up to snuff. He, being the author, decides when he's done. If he hasn't bothered to beta read the mess, why should I? Did I sign up to be his beta reader and pay for the privilege?

Not fucking likely - I'm just the audience. Treating me like such is a very good first step.

[Imperial Overlord]

Betancourt is writing new Amber novels. Sweet!!!!!

[Elheru Aran]

My main question is why doesn't Jordan have an editor? I doubt that his publisher would have any problem with assigning the best they have (he does sell after all). You can't force an author to have an editor, especially once they become a power unto themselves and can say - no editor or no deal. So likely Jordan has to be held personally responsible for much of the mess his books have become. If the publishers didn't try to get him to run his manuscripts through an editor, then they should be hung by their thumbs as punishment.

As far as I know, Jordan does have the opportunity to have an editor, if he wants one. From all I've read about him, he seems to be pretty reclusive where his writing is concerned; I think I read once that the only person who hears his stories before he sends them in for publication is his wife. With that small an audience to run the story by first, well...

Regarding Tolkien; IIRC, he was always revising his stuff-- he started his legendarium back when he was a kid in the military (during WWI), and it underwent considerable change through the years. Even before his death, he was still working on what would become the Silmarillion. With that attitude towards perfection, it's no wonder he had many people review his writing before he ever sent any of it in for publication-- a habit which, I think, many authors would do well to emulate.

[Stormbringer]

These are not "minor" authors, numbnuts. These are hugo and nebula award winners and their like, not that you'd know what that means in the first place. They are absolute classics in every sense of the word, and to dismiss them as you do is roughly on par with a film student claiming Kurosawa and Leone were nobodies because their movies aren't rolling in mainstream cinema today.

And you're acting like a film student that's rambling about the greatness of indy cinema, as if it's god own home movies. Just because some one has a few awards (and yes I know what the Hugo and Nebulas are) and some fans doesn't make them great. I've seen people praise too much shit for me to take awards and a few fans as proof of greatness.

There are a few gems in there, but not as much as people would like to pretend.

Already debunked as a hasty, ill-informed generalization.

So Tolkien is still alive? I guess report of his death have been greatly exaggerated.

No, I don't subscribe to your strawman, sorry. Every one in this thread, except apparently you, seem to perfectly understand what I was saying. Namely, that Jordan is responsible for his own fucking writing, or whatever one would like to call it. It is thus the fault of his own sloppiness, arrogance or bad judgement (whichever it may be) that the finished product isn't up to snuff. He, being the author, decides when he's done. If he hasn't bothered to beta read the mess, why should I? Did I sign up to be his beta reader and pay for the privilege?

I'm not saying the stuff he produces now is as good. But frankly saying he's some sort of hack ignores the simple fact that Tor is to blame for a big part of it in not properly editing it. Once again, a good editor is as important as a good camera man is for a director. His writings suffered for that, I won't deny it. But calling him a rank amateur ignores the fact that he's been a best selling author for almost two decades now.

Not fucking likely - I'm just the audience. Treating me like such is a very good first step.

Oh, boohooo. Sorry, you're entitled to your opinions but that doesn't mean I'm obligated to give a damn about them. I think you're dead wrong on this.

[Stormbringer]

Oh and that Martin is smart enough to value his editors isn't surprising. His writing is still good.

Of course he does. And yes his books are still good, but then again he's also got three or four years between books as well.

My main question is why doesn't Jordan have an editor? I doubt that his publisher would have any problem with assigning the best they have (he does sell after all). You can't force an author to have an editor, especially once they become a power unto themselves and can say - no editor or no deal. So likely Jordan has to be held personally responsible for much of the mess his books have become. If the publishers didn't try to get him to run his manuscripts through an editor, then they should be hung by their thumbs as punishment.

As far as I know, Jordan does have the opportunity to have an editor, if he wants one. From all I've read about him, he seems to be pretty reclusive where his writing is concerned; I think I read once that the only person who hears his stories before he sends them in for publication is his wife. With that small an audience to run the story by first, well...

He has an editor, the problem is that Tor until the last couple books was unwilling to ask for revisions. Something I might point out that most authors, as Jordan himself did, work with as a matter of course. Certainly any commercial author worth a damn does. That hasn't happened and why exactly should a best selling author doubt works that hit the top of the charts with out any other feeback?

Tor's got a new editor that's promising to turn that around. And if rumors are true it looks good indeed.

[Imperial Overlord]

Tolkein has been dead for half a century? That's news to me. I'm not a big fan of Anderson or Powers, but they write better than Jordan. You should try reading some fantasy that is actually good. It's Jordan's own fault if he surrounds himself with yes men. That doesn't just magically happen by itself.

I'm not surprised that Jordan might be getting a real editor. A lot of people admit to reading his earlier books and then dropping the series. That kind of thing does have an impact on the magical bottom line.

[Eleas]

And you're acting like a film student that's rambling about the greatness of indy cinema, as if it's god own home movies. Just because some one has a few awards (and yes I know what the Hugo and Nebulas are) and some fans doesn't make them great. I've seen people praise too much shit for me to take awards and a few fans as proof of greatness.

That's actually true. Awards don't make the writer. That axiom applies in this case as any other. These people are considered great not because of their awards, but their ability to write well, unlike Jordan.

There are a few gems in there, but not as much as people would like to pretend.

How would you know? You didn't even pass the litmus test for SF/F . You hardly appear to know the first thing about anything published after 1980 that didn't have "Tolkien" on its cover. To continue my analogy earlier, this is like a film school student who doesn't know the names Kurosawa, Lang, Leone, Hitchcock etc, and still feebly struggles to appear knowledgeable about the more obscure directors. Such a person would be laughed at by anyone with a smidgin of knowledge about the subject, rather in the same way I laugh at you.

So Tolkien is still alive? I guess report of his death have been greatly exaggerated.

No, Tolkien's not alive. Neither was he "several" in any sense. Please try to pay attention to what you're saying.

I'm not saying the stuff he produces now is as good. But frankly saying he's some sort of hack ignores the simple fact that Tor is to blame for a big part of it in not properly editing it. Once again, a good editor is as important as a good camera man is for a director. His writings suffered for that, I won't deny it. But calling him a rank amateur ignores the fact that he's been a best selling author for almost two decades now.

Technically, I give you that he's not an amateur. But it is still the duty of the author to edit the story. An editor can be hired by the publisher, but that is not in any way, shape or form required or expected.

Oh, boohooo. Sorry, you're entitled to your opinions but that doesn't mean I'm obligated to give a damn about them. I think you're dead wrong on this.

And I know, thanks to you being so obvious about it, that your experience with Fantasy literature is sorely missing. Your lack of knowledge is so glaring that your opinion lacks meaning to me, or anyone else who's glanced beyond the latest kiosk literature.

[Trogdor]

I personally read Eye of the World and disliked it so much I never picked up another of Jordon's books. I just didn't care about the characters. The book was covered in the marks of an amatuer, IMO.

For instance, at the end of the book there was a kind of glossary/dictionary to explain terms or places that would sometimes be mentioned but that Jordon couldn't or didn't bother to put the explainations for in the context of the story. Rand was pretty much your standard country bumpkin, common in fantasy stories. Most authors who use this kind of character utilize their ignorance of the world as an excuse to explain things to the reader. Jordon did not always do this, using his glossary at the end sometimes instead.

Often times the characters just seemed to get lucky, stumbling onto things or other characters that just happened to be there. Such as when they came across the guy who could open the now corrupted tunnel things. Reeks of deus ex machina that Jordon would excuse as merely being "part of the pattern" or some such other.

Occasional random relationships/events occuring between characters with no hint of them coming. Such as when that guy whose title was the Lord of the Seven Towers and the woman who was the Wisdom or whatever of Rand's town confessing love for one another. I read that and just said WTF? They're both super unemotional ice blocks, she's a bitch on top of it, and they're suddenly in love?

Don't get me wrong, the man does have some talent, the little excerpts from the books he made up before the story started, for example, were excellent, I just think he's often overrated.

[Symmetry]

has anyone read the wheel of time by Robert Jordan (I'm pretty sure that's the author) if so what are your opinions?

and also is it just me or does it seem like he has given up. the first few books were full of action then they started to die out a little untill eventually there was really just an action packed ending. the last book though, number 10 i believe just ended. it just stopped. like that last sentence, no excitement of anything just bam, put down his pen and gave up and there has been no word of the next book. I'm mightily annoyed

I think the big difference is that he realized people like me were going over them with a fine tooth comb, and wonder how Verin could have said that Moraine sent her in tGH. Since then I think he's been writing more for us, and letting the rest of his audiance down a bit. Still, I'm not complaining. The bottom line is that if you want excitement or wit you should read someone else. If you want to spend a while trying to figure out a character's motivation RJ may be the author for you.

And yeah, the way I like to describe book 10 is that many important decisions were made, which will all bear fruit next book. I can easily understand how people are unhappy with this.

[Murazor]

Guy Gavriel Kay.

I sincerely hope that this guy has something better than Fiovanar out there, because otherwise... Robert Jordan is not the best fantasy writer out there, but he is a quantum leap above Kay. Heck, listing Kay near Tolkien is an insult to the memory of the professor considering the ridiculous rip-offs of the Silmarillion that he included in that damned trilogy.

[Eleas]

Guy Gavriel Kay.

I sincerely hope that this guy has something better than Fiovanar out there, because otherwise... Robert Jordan is not the best fantasy writer out there, but he is a quantum leap above Kay. Heck, listing Kay near Tolkien is an insult to the memory of the professor considering the ridiculous rip-offs of the Silmarillion that he included in that damned trilogy.

In a sense, you're right - he does borrow heavily from Tolkien. But I feel Kay managed to enter two things that Tolkien didn't do that well - memorable characters, and tragedy. If you read Kay's series of Tigana, that becomes even more obvious, and should strike a deep chord with all you patriots out there.

I mean, the initial chapter is about the besieged king of the small country, under attack by the wizard-king's army (not undead, just a sort of byzantine magicracy). He's killed the wizard-king's son, and he knows he won't be left alive because of that. But he tells his friends and his men that whatever the enemy does, they can't take away the memory of what happened and the memory of their country.

...which the wizard does. He razes the city-state, and wipes away the knowledge of Tigana from all the world, and that's just so fucking evil.