B5 superweapons vs. Death Star

[Seele]

Well I don't know how relevent this is but my take is that the VPK mind be similar to the Stellar Converter in Master of Orion 2. That it simples cracks planets and let's the chuncks float away. Perhaps some survivors might remain on the chunks somehow (if that's even possible) that transports could be able to evacuate them.

[Slartibartfast]

Well I don't know how relevent this is but my take is that the VPK mind be similar to the Stellar Converter in Master of Orion 2. That it simples cracks planets and let's the chuncks float away. Perhaps some survivors might remain on the chunks somehow (if that's even possible) that transports could be able to evacuate them.

There's this thingy called gravity which doesn't allow the chunks to float away

(several large bodies that are close enough will have a center of gravity, like Pluto and it's 'moon')

[Seele]

There's this thingy called gravity which doesn't allow the chunks to float away

(several large bodies that are close enough will have a center of gravity, like Pluto and it's 'moon')

I knew that.

But will there be any type of survivors left on a planet after something like that, is it possible?

[Durandal]

I seriously doubt it. That much force on the planet's motion would utterly devastate the surface, and no one would survive.

By the way, it doesn't take 2 bodies to have a center of gravity. All it takes is one.

[seanrobertson]

Okay, so it's canonical that the SPK is the equivalent of a ISD for bombardment(BDZ op!). The VPK can blow colonies away, but I find it hard to believe the tech difference between the Vorlons and Shadows is so massive they can field a DS-style superlaser in a compact form. Were this so, the Vorlons could have stamped out the Shadows like they were bugs.

THANK YOU!

That's exactly what I've said before. If the Vorlons could field
numerous platforms capable of shattering worlds, they'd have
a firepower something like 10 orders of magnitude greater
than the SPKs.

That kind of engineering ability wouldn't exist in a vacuum;
i.e., all of the smaller Vorlon ships would be so vastly superior to
their Shadow counterparts it wouldn't even be funny. There
would *certainly* be no reason for the Vorlons to fight
repeatedly stalemated wars with the Shadows.

And Adam: thank you. Those quotes will prove very
useful

[Shinova]

Okay, so it's canonical that the SPK is the equivalent of a ISD for bombardment(BDZ op!). The VPK can blow colonies away, but I find it hard to believe the tech difference between the Vorlons and Shadows is so massive they can field a DS-style superlaser in a compact form. Were this so, the Vorlons could have stamped out the Shadows like they were bugs.

THANK YOU!

That's exactly what I've said before. If the Vorlons could field
numerous platforms capable of shattering worlds, they'd have
a firepower something like 10 orders of magnitude greater
than the SPKs.

That kind of engineering ability wouldn't exist in a vacuum;
i.e., all of the smaller Vorlon ships would be so vastly superior to
their Shadow counterparts it wouldn't even be funny. There
would *certainly* be no reason for the Vorlons to fight
repeatedly stalemated wars with the Shadows.

And Adam: thank you. Those quotes will prove very
useful

The SPK simply works on a different principles, so the Shadows aren't necessarily weaker than the Vorlons.

Besides, the Shadows are one of the oldest First Ones and in one of the big First Ones wars it took the power of all the rest of the First Ones to keep the Shadows at bay. <== Delenn said something like this, just don't know which episode.

[Darth Wong]

The Shadows aren't weaker, they're just "different?" That's a pretty funny excuse for your biggest weapon being 10 orders of magnitude less powerful than your enemy's biggest weapon.

Pee-Wee Herman isn't weaker than Lennox Lewis; he's just "different"

[Shinova]

The Shadows aren't weaker, they're just "different?" That's a pretty funny excuse for your biggest weapon being 10 orders of magnitude less powerful than your enemy's biggest weapon.

Pee-Wee Herman isn't weaker than Lennox Lewis; he's just "different"

But neither do we have big evidence that Shadows are weaker than Vorlons. The SPK devastates a planet, like a VPK, but does it in a more subtle fashion (Missiles instead of beam weapon). Two planetkillers are hardly evidence that one is better than the other. That is all, and that's basically what I was putting forth.

[SirNitram]

The Shadows aren't weaker, they're just "different?" That's a pretty funny excuse for your biggest weapon being 10 orders of magnitude less powerful than your enemy's biggest weapon.

Pee-Wee Herman isn't weaker than Lennox Lewis; he's just "different"

But neither do we have big evidence that Shadows are weaker than Vorlons. The SPK devastates a planet, like a VPK, but does it in a more subtle fashion (Missiles instead of beam weapon). Two planetkillers are hardly evidence that one is better than the other. That is all, and that's basically what I was putting forth.

But if the VPK can shatter a planet(Even at 2.1e32J), it is orders of magnitude above the SPK.

[SirNitram]

Okay, so it's canonical that the SPK is the equivalent of a ISD for bombardment(BDZ op!). The VPK can blow colonies away, but I find it hard to believe the tech difference between the Vorlons and Shadows is so massive they can field a DS-style superlaser in a compact form. Were this so, the Vorlons could have stamped out the Shadows like they were bugs.

THANK YOU!

That's exactly what I've said before. If the Vorlons could field
numerous platforms capable of shattering worlds, they'd have
a firepower something like 10 orders of magnitude greater
than the SPKs.

That kind of engineering ability wouldn't exist in a vacuum;
i.e., all of the smaller Vorlon ships would be so vastly superior to
their Shadow counterparts it wouldn't even be funny. There
would *certainly* be no reason for the Vorlons to fight
repeatedly stalemated wars with the Shadows.

And Adam: thank you. Those quotes will prove very
useful

Heh. This is what I always say in this, it usually just gets the Fivers upset. Poor babies.

[Shinova]

The Shadows aren't weaker, they're just "different?" That's a pretty funny excuse for your biggest weapon being 10 orders of magnitude less powerful than your enemy's biggest weapon.

Pee-Wee Herman isn't weaker than Lennox Lewis; he's just "different"

But neither do we have big evidence that Shadows are weaker than Vorlons. The SPK devastates a planet, like a VPK, but does it in a more subtle fashion (Missiles instead of beam weapon). Two planetkillers are hardly evidence that one is better than the other. That is all, and that's basically what I was putting forth.

But if the VPK can shatter a planet(Even at 2.1e32J), it is orders of magnitude above the SPK.

VPK > SPK

But Vorlons > Shadows? Unknown.

[Master of Ossus]

The Shadows aren't weaker, they're just "different?" That's a pretty funny excuse for your biggest weapon being 10 orders of magnitude less powerful than your enemy's biggest weapon.

Pee-Wee Herman isn't weaker than Lennox Lewis; he's just "different"

But neither do we have big evidence that Shadows are weaker than Vorlons. The SPK devastates a planet, like a VPK, but does it in a more subtle fashion (Missiles instead of beam weapon). Two planetkillers are hardly evidence that one is better than the other. That is all, and that's basically what I was putting forth.

You are still talking about an order of magnitude firepower difference between the two sides' most powerful ships. In addition, the SPK takes hours to devastate a planet with its missiles. The VPK's time duration has not been measured, but it cannot be longer than an hour or two from the show. Concession accepted.

[Master of Ossus]

VPK > SPK

But Vorlons > Shadows? Unknown.

They would almost have to be for them to have such a huge advantage in beam weapon technology. What part of this do you no understand?

[SirNitram]

But neither do we have big evidence that Shadows are weaker than Vorlons. The SPK devastates a planet, like a VPK, but does it in a more subtle fashion (Missiles instead of beam weapon). Two planetkillers are hardly evidence that one is better than the other. That is all, and that's basically what I was putting forth.

But if the VPK can shatter a planet(Even at 2.1e32J), it is orders of magnitude above the SPK.

VPK > SPK

But Vorlons > Shadows? Unknown.

Excuse me.

If the VPK is 10 orders of magnitude more powerful than the more voluminous SPK, there is no reason to assume this massive disparity should not vanish with other ships. Perhaps you don't realize the size of this disparity. It's a ISD next to a Death Star. This is not a disparity that will vanish as you scale down ships, this is a huge disadvantage to the Shadows.. And yet they somehow are fought to a stalemate by these all-powerful Vorlons.

Try something feasible in your next post.

[Shinova]

The VPK also has to have 10,000 ships to defend it, while the SPK can use its missiles to destroy ships and also has internal beam weapons. So the VPK alone is a sitting duck.

JMS has also said that the two races are about even.

<Add this to my previous posts, and you have my opinion>

[Shinova]

The VPK also has to have 10,000 ships to defend it, while the SPK can use its missiles to destroy ships and also has internal beam weapons. So the VPK alone is a sitting duck.

JMS has also said that the two races are about even.

<Add this to my previous posts, and you have my opinion>

And if we follow this idea, then the SPK is clearly a more effective PK weapon while the VPK needs to be defended.

So in the end, the SPK is a better planetkiller.

[Master of Ossus]

The VPK also has to have 10,000 ships to defend it, while the SPK can use its missiles to destroy ships and also has internal beam weapons. So the VPK alone is a sitting duck.

So? That doesn't eliminate the firepower discrepency. You appear to be indicating that the SPK's other abilities make up for its lack of firepower when compared with the ultra-megafied VPK you have blowing up planets. In fact, the SPK's largest weapons are not as powerful as the super-VPK you believe in, even though this is clearly not merely a difference of trade-offs. An orders of magnitude firepower difference is not explainable with trade offs, particularly since the SPK must remain in orbit around a planet for a much longer period of time to annihilate life from its surface than a VPK requires to fire one shot. If you are seriously suggesting that the difference is all in the trade offs that each ship was designed to make, then you are admitting that the SPK's designers incorporated a flawed tactical thinking into their PKer design, but that the Vorlons still could not defeat them.

JMS has also said that the two races are about even.

Circular reasoning. You are saying that JMS's quote about the two races being even proves that their ships were evenly matched, because otherwise the match would not be even. JMS said that the two races were even, which can be interpreted as saying that the VPK could not destroy a planet. This supports the other side as much as it supports yours.

<Add this to my previous posts, and you have my opinion> [/quote]

[Shinova]

The VPK also has to have 10,000 ships to defend it, while the SPK can use its missiles to destroy ships and also has internal beam weapons. So the VPK alone is a sitting duck.

So? That doesn't eliminate the firepower discrepency. You appear to be indicating that the SPK's other abilities make up for its lack of firepower when compared with the ultra-megafied VPK you have blowing up planets. In fact, the SPK's largest weapons are not as powerful as the super-VPK you believe in, even though this is clearly not merely a difference of trade-offs. An orders of magnitude firepower difference is not explainable with trade offs, particularly since the SPK must remain in orbit around a planet for a much longer period of time to annihilate life from its surface than a VPK requires to fire one shot. If you are seriously suggesting that the difference is all in the trade offs that each ship was designed to make, then you are admitting that the SPK's designers incorporated a flawed tactical thinking into their PKer design, but that the Vorlons still could not defeat them.

JMS has also said that the two races are about even.

Circular reasoning. You are saying that JMS's quote about the two races being even proves that their ships were evenly matched, because otherwise the match would not be even. JMS said that the two races were even, which can be interpreted as saying that the VPK could not destroy a planet. This supports the other side as much as it supports yours.

<Add this to my previous posts, and you have my opinion>

[/quote]

VPK blowing up planets? There were survivors after the VPK attacks. I wouldn't say outright blowing up planets.

[Master of Ossus]

VPK blowing up planets? There were survivors after the VPK attacks. I wouldn't say outright blowing up planets.

What are you trying to get us to believe it can do?

[His Divine Shadow]

If their entire argument is based upon the semantics of "cracking open a planet", they're fucked.

Wanna see semantics?
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post946338

Destroyed means DS style destruction of planet apparently...