Ten Basestars in Trekverse

[Zor]

Some time in season three of DS-9, Q decides to be an ass and drops ten fully loaded Neo Cylon basestars, these ships are now convinced they "Misjumped" and shrug it off. They are in a star system, and they sit there taking on information for a few minutes. Then a Danube class Runabout drops out of warp infront of them and tells the basestars that they send there greatings and wish to make contact.

What Happens?

[brianeyci]

First, obviously, the Danube class runabout gets destroyed.

Then it becomes a question of what the Cylons do. I don't know enough about Neo-BSG to say, but obviously the first order of business would be to find a supply base. It depends on where they start out.

SF will go after the runabout of course, but they'll just find wreckage and strange weapons signatures. There's no reason to expect the Feds can track Cylons through hyperspace.

Hyperspace looks surprisingly like the "slipstream" tunnels we saw in VOY with the Vaddwuar (sp).

Firepower wise, this isn't dropping an ISD into Trekverse. They can't hope to conquer the AQ with just 10 basestars.

Brian

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

*Redshirt walks through forest*

Cylon: BY YOUR COMMAND! *Shoots Redshirt*

There's what would happen in a nutshell.

But otherwise....

Cylong nukes seem to have a maximum yield of 50 MT, about the same as Quantum torpedoes. Without shields, Federation starships could start a-beaming bombs into the basestars and get it over with quickly.

However, the masses of Cylong Raiders would certainly be dangerous to the federation capships, which have little to no fighter cover, poor accuracy an no experience dealing with ships like these. Whether Cylon railguns are a danger to them is debatable.

[Nephilim]

*Redshirt walks through forest*
Cylong nukes seem to have a maximum yield of 50 MT, about the same as Quantum torpedoes. Without shields, Federation starships could start a-beaming bombs into the basestars and get it over with quickly.

Actually, i would consider the 50 MT nukes to be a minimum since those were fighter mounted nukes. The ones on capital ships would undoubtedly be stronger and the Galactica, a run down, obsolete, decommissioned Battlestar was able to withstand fire from over half a dozen of these in the mini-series. Basestars are stronger than Galactica, so they are pretty resilient.

And well... each Basestar can carry around 400 Raiders. Swarm tactics come to mind, especially since no Federation ship has the ability to shoot up a wall of defensive fire like the Galactica has been shown to do.

[The Silence and I]

With the ability to deliver and recieve 50 < MT nukes these warships will pose a significant tactical threat, but with only 10 vessels they are out classed. Their firepower advantage is not enough, and transporters can be used with great effectiveness if someone thinks of it (when they see unshielded ships they will think of them as flimsy, easily destroyed. When they learn the error of their ways they might start thinking about transporter tactics, but not before a painful lession IMHO).

As for fighters, I doubt much harm will come from their guns, but if missiles can achieve < 50 MT yields then swarm tactices will not be good for the Federation and allies, especially as this swarming will be very very new to them and they won't have a ready counter. Photon and Quantum Torpedoes are capable of mounting a sort of defense against the swarm attacks, but this is something they have to think of and implement after tasting their foe's tactics, and only large, torpedo heavy starships will be able achieve statistical casualties against 8000 fighters

That said, it isn't all one sided, the Federation has some useful technologies too. Torpedoes seem to be shielded making them difficult targets to destroy with point defense, added to their small profile this will make it more likely torpedoes will get through the screens reliably. As a larger ship can spit out ten or so photons in about three seconds their large targets can get a taste of concentrated firepower--I know not how many hits are needed to kill a ship, but I doubt it to be more than 20 or so, an easy matter for large fed vessels and the Akira too.
As mentioned transporters could quickly make the Cylons unhappy and fighters swarmed up like that could fall prey to wide beam phaser sweeps--as always assuming they think of it-- proximity torpedo fire or even tractor beams. Maybe on the tractor beams, a very faint maybe mind you, but a maybe.

[Old Plympto]

I don't know. I might be hesitant to speculate what would happen in this situation, because as of the last episode of the season, it seemed to me that the Cylon basestars are more than what they seem to be. Everything that happened in the favour of the Colonials are implied to be known, and allowed to occur, by the Cylons.

[Jalinth]

I don't know. I might be hesitant to speculate what would happen in this situation, because as of the last episode of the season, it seemed to me that the Cylon basestars are more than what they seem to be. Everything that happened in the favour of the Colonials are implied to be known, and allowed to occur, by the Cylons.

The new Cylons aren't stupid. If they suddenly encountered a new civilization, I'd expect them to back off and investigate first if the initial response is not hostile. The human looking Cylons would be amazingly effective as long as they cannot be detected through a routine transporter or sensor scan.

Given the propensity for Trek to have amazingly centralized computer systems, they'd probably infiltrate and infect Starfleet for a number of years and then strike. They wouldn't even need to use nukes - just have all of Starfleet pull a "Yamato" by losing containment in their warp cores. 99% of your problems are done.

The only reason they might wait is to try to infiltrate other Alpha Quadrant races so they can at least disable the other fleets to some degree. The need to produce accurate Cardassian, Klingon, Romulan, etc... agents could be time consuming since they have no direct data on their psychology, etc...

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I don't know. I might be hesitant to speculate what would happen in this situation, because as of the last episode of the season, it seemed to me that the Cylon basestars are more than what they seem to be. Everything that happened in the favour of the Colonials are implied to be known, and allowed to occur, by the Cylons.

The new Cylons aren't stupid. If they suddenly encountered a new civilization, I'd expect them to back off and investigate first if the initial response is not hostile. The human looking Cylons would be amazingly effective as long as they cannot be detected through a routine transporter or sensor scan.

Given the propensity for Trek to have amazingly centralized computer systems, they'd probably infiltrate and infect Starfleet for a number of years and then strike. They wouldn't even need to use nukes - just have all of Starfleet pull a "Yamato" by losing containment in their warp cores. 99% of your problems are done.

The only reason they might wait is to try to infiltrate other Alpha Quadrant races so they can at least disable the other fleets to some degree. The need to produce accurate Cardassian, Klingon, Romulan, etc... agents could be time consuming since they have no direct data on their psychology, etc...

Agreed. Time, and time again in TNG, we've seen Starfleet computers practically bend over backwards to run untrusted and unsecure code (Much like Internet Explorer with ActiveX enabled.) Hell, it's so bad that the computer aboard a Starfleet ship once ran a computer virus from a civilization that was long dead. And it does so automatically, with tragic results. Once the Cylon figure out the critical control paths, they could concievably write a virus that could kill a ship before the ship's engineers realize something is up.

Of course, this is making a pretty big assumption about the computing capabilities and resources found aboard the typical Cylon basestar.

[Aaron]

Well it is speculated on the official site that they have manufactoring facilities onboard and that they can make their own raiders. If they can do that it shouldn't be too hard for them to create new "human" Cylons, but in the form of other races.

[Lancer]

they still would need DNA samples from those races at the very least.

Humanform Cylons are identical to humans down to blood and genes. Caprica-Boomer even got pregnant. Even if they're manufactured, if they are genetically human but look extactly like a Klingon or Romulan, they're not going to be fooling anyone.

[Aaron]

they still would need DNA samples from those races at the very least.

Humanform Cylons are identical to humans down to blood and genes. Caprica-Boomer even got pregnant. Even if they're manufactured, if they are genetically human but look extactly like a Klingon or Romulan, they're not going to be fooling anyone.

Well all they have to do is capture a sample of whatever race they wish to copy. Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish, just jump to a remote outpost, invade it and capture the populace.

[brianeyci]

Well all they have to do is capture a sample of whatever race they wish to copy. Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish, just jump to a remote outpost, invade it and capture the populace.

Klingons have a totally different language, and a different culture than humans. Ditto for Romulans. How easy should it be for a machine to emulate culture? Should be pretty easy, but I'm reminded how the first Terminators had rubber skins. Computers think logically, and might make mistakes in terms of culture.

And, this infiltration does not automatically give them positions on the Klingon High Council, Romulan Senate, prefix codes or anything like that. They're still going to have to seed their spies, which may take decades to get to any position of power. Meanwhile, the Fed and Klingons are hunting for them.

Infiltration is not a sure bet.

Brian

[Aaron]

Klingons have a totally different language, and a different culture than humans. Ditto for Romulans. How easy should it be for a machine to emulate culture? Should be pretty easy, but I'm reminded how the first Terminators had rubber skins. Computers think logically, and might make mistakes in terms of culture.

Cylons have proven to be very patient, and they appear to believe in a god which is an indication that they can think in other ways besides logical ones.

And, this infiltration does not automatically give them positions on the Klingon High Council, Romulan Senate, prefix codes or anything like that. They're still going to have to seed their spies, which may take decades to get to any position of power. Meanwhile, the Fed and Klingons are hunting for them.

Actually if they can create a perfect replica of a Klingon, than they can simply have him challenge the Chancellor to a duel, kill him and take his place. Other societes may pose more of a challenge to infiltrate and disrupt.

As for hunting them, the Cyclons possess a fast and long range hyperspace drive. They could easily take what they need and jump to a location far outside the influence of the power they are infiltrating.

Infiltration is not a sure bet.

Brian

No but the Cylons have proven to be very patient. It must have taken them years to infiltrate the Colonial society without being detected.

[brianeyci]

Cylons have proven to be very patient, and they appear to believe in a god which is an indication that they can think in other ways besides logical ones.

Yes, but this will take time. Its like saying just dropping me or you into a situation where you look like the locals, how long will it take to build relationships, make connections, even if you or I have special downloaded spy training to make it easier? Years, decades even.

Actually if they can create a perfect replica of a Klingon, than they can simply have him challenge the Chancellor to a duel, kill him and take his place. Other societes may pose more of a challenge to infiltrate and disrupt.

You cannot just challenge the High Chancellor or a Klingon Captain to a fight under any circumstances. There has to be a reason, and if you are not of the same standing they are likely to refuse. This is elaborated on by Dax, who says there are specific rules to challenges. Also Gowron's personal bodyguard took out his disruptor to shoot Worf until Gowron shot him and allowed the challenge to take place. Klingon society isn't just survival of the fittest or it would be sheer anarchy. For example, to challenge a Captain and for him to accept, its likely you would have to observe an action like cowardice in battle, and likely you have to be of the same rank or directly below him, not just a peon.

As for hunting them, the Cyclons possess a fast and long range hyperspace drive. They could easily take what they need and jump to a location far outside the influence of the power they are infiltrating.

Sure, I'm not disputing that. But it is still just 10 basestars and they have limited resources.

No but the Cylons have proven to be very patient. It must have taken them years to infiltrate the Colonial society without being detected.

Yes, but in a totally foreign society which they have had no experience with, it will take even longer. Years to decades to put people in the right position to have any effect on the Klingon or Romulan Empires as a whole rather than some small operation.

Brian

[StarshipTitanic]

Didn't a changling infiltrate a really high position in the Klingon hierarchy within a few months?

Yes, but in a totally foreign society which they have had no experience with, it will take even longer. Years to decades to put people in the right position to have any effect on the Klingon or Romulan Empires as a whole rather than some small operation.

Meanwhile, the Fed and Klingons are hunting for them.

How do they have a prayer of finding the Cylons after a single, isolated incident? You don't think the Cylons are stupid enough to declare their existance every few days with pointless attacks, do you?

[brianeyci]

Didn't a changling infiltrate a really high position in the Klingon hierarchy within a few months?

Looking exactly like General Martok.

How do they have a prayer of finding the Cylons after a single, isolated incident? You don't think the Cylons are stupid enough to declare their existance every few days with pointless attacks, do you?

Of course not, but the burden of proof is on the people who claim the Cylons can infiltrate the Klingon or Romulan Empires just as easily as they infiltrated the Colonials, which is obviously false and unprovable.

Brian

[brianeyci]

One more thing about the changeling idea... the Dominion had been studying the Federation for years until they chose to move. The Jem'Hadar who talked to Sisko "very much wanted to meet" a Klingon. The Founders obviously knew their shit before sending in one of their own to imitate a Klingon General.

Cylons start with no knowledge and no connections to anyone in the AQ.

I'm not saying its impossible, just that claims that the Cylons can take over Q'nos or Romulus in a few months or even years is ridiculous. Even decades is ridiculous, given the Cylons only have ten basestars and would need significant support and would have to play one side against the other, a plan that would take more than just decades and require quite a bit of luck.

Brian

[Aaron]

Yes, but this will take time. Its like saying just dropping me or you into a situation where you look like the locals, how long will it take to build relationships, make connections, even if you or I have special downloaded spy training to make it easier? Years, decades even.

I fully admit that it will take time. But we have already seen that the Cylons are patent, and as they are machines, they can easily wait decades for their efforts to come to pass.

You cannot just challenge the High Chancellor or a Klingon Captain to a fight under any circumstances. There has to be a reason, and if you are not of the same standing they are likely to refuse. This is elaborated on by Dax, who says there are specific rules to challenges. Also Gowron's personal bodyguard took out his disruptor to shoot Worf until Gowron shot him and allowed the challenge to take place. Klingon society isn't just survival of the fittest or it would be sheer anarchy. For example, to challenge a Captain and for him to accept, its likely you would have to observe an action like cowardice in battle, and likely you have to be of the same rank or directly below him, not just a peon.

Ahh. Well than they simply wait for their infiltrators to move up the ranks. It may take years but they have the time. And while they wait they can setup shop on some resource rich world and start pumping out more Raiders and Centurions. Maybe some simple smaller ships, that they can use to escort the Basestars. And of course ammo for their railguns and extra missiles and nukes.

Sure, I'm not disputing that. But it is still just 10 basestars and they have limited resources.

See above.

Yes, but in a totally foreign society which they have had no experience with, it will take even longer. Years to decades to put people in the right position to have any effect on the Klingon or Romulan Empires as a whole rather than some small operation.

Brian

I'm not disputing that. Their best bet is probably to infiltrate the Feds first, seeing as they already have human models.

[brianeyci]

Infiltration is a good idea. Lets say the infiltration is immensely successful. We're talking ten basestars against the whole AQ here. That is what, two orders of magnitude more starships than what the Cylons have, and three or four orders of magnitude more population than the Cylons?

Likely the Cylons will eventually be able to carve out a small Empire for themselves, but it is highly unlikely that they will be able to utterly destroy the Klingon, Romulan or Federation as powers in the AQ.

Brian

[Aaron]

Infiltration is a good idea. Lets say the infiltration is immensely successful. We're talking ten basestars against the whole AQ here. That is what, two orders of magnitude more starships than what the Cylons have, and three or four orders of magnitude more population than the Cylons?

Well we have no way of knowing what the crew of a Basestar is, but thats a good enough assumation as any.

Likely the Cylons will eventually be able to carve out a small Empire for themselves, but it is highly unlikely that they will be able to utterly destroy the Klingon, Romulan or Federation as powers in the AQ.

Brian

There best bet would be to infiltrate the Federation to the degree where they efffectively control both the council and SF, they can then sour relations with the other AQ powers to the point where they are isolated. They can then try and pick off the Federation itself or better yet incite a war between the Feds and another AQ power, preferably the Klingons.

This is probably going to take at least ten years to get the Cylons into positions that high in SF and the council. But once they do they can effetively fuck up the AQ, by inciting one destrucitve war after another, which will wear down the powers to an extent where an overt take over is possible. That would probably take the better part of a 100 years to wear down the powers enough.

Thats assuming that the Cylons even bother, they might simply just find a world to call home and settle down.

[Jalinth]

And, this infiltration does not automatically give them positions on the Klingon High Council, Romulan Senate, prefix codes or anything like that. They're still going to have to seed their spies, which may take decades to get to any position of power. Meanwhile, the Fed and Klingons are hunting for them.

Infiltration is not a sure bet.

Brian

Why would the Feds and Klingons be hunting for them? In the scenario, it is first contact. The Cylons would simply send over a representative (one of the babes if they are smart) to say "hello" and gather a bit of info. They'd keep all of their weapons under wrap and take no obviously hostile actions.

The Cylons could get some basic navigation information and pass themselves off as travellers who got lost somehow. Then they would "disappear" to some obscure system and then start infilitrating everyone. Raiders could be used to capture a few Klingon, Romulans, etc... for study but otherwise they would be barely visible - only the "human" cylons would be used - possibly just one model pretending to be clones.

Remember, they don't need Senate/Council members, they just need access to higher end technicians, scientists who have access to the computer systems. And these positions are not necessarily under surveillance all the time - unlike your posts which have important military/political information passing through.

[Aaron]

Remember, they don't need Senate/Council members, they just need access to higher end technicians, scientists who have access to the computer systems. And these positions are not necessarily under surveillance all the time - unlike your posts which have important military/political information passing through.

Thats true, the human Cylons could just start banging members of SF R&D like Six did to Baltar. Human males will do anything for a hot blonde chick that fucks your brains out.

[Zor]

Remember, they don't need Senate/Council members, they just need access to higher end technicians, scientists who have access to the computer systems. And these positions are not necessarily under surveillance all the time - unlike your posts which have important military/political information passing through.

Thats true, the human Cylons could just start banging members of SF R&D like Six did to Baltar. Human males will do anything for a hot blonde chick that fucks your brains out.

Litteraly.

[Aaron]

Hopefully we'll get to see a Basestars manufacturing capabilities sometime during the series, so we can them predict how this kind of scenario would play out, with greater accuracy. For example could 10 Basestars between them build a shipyard that could make more Basestars?

[brianeyci]

Why would the Feds and Klingons be hunting for them? In the scenario, it is first contact. The Cylons would simply send over a representative (one of the babes if they are smart) to say "hello" and gather a bit of info. They'd keep all of their weapons under wrap and take no obviously hostile actions.

Depends on whether the Cylons classify the runabout as human or not, and whether they destroy it. They are trying to exterminate humanity you know.

The Cylons could get some basic navigation information and pass themselves off as travellers who got lost somehow. Then they would "disappear" to some obscure system and then start infilitrating everyone. Raiders could be used to capture a few Klingon, Romulans, etc... for study but otherwise they would be barely visible - only the "human" cylons would be used - possibly just one model pretending to be clones.

Sure, I don't deny this. Just that it will take a lot longer to get a working intelligence and information gathering apparatus, given the Cylons have no connections in the AQ at all. I'd say a generation at least, 50 years. Moving any sooner especially when you're outnumbered by orders of magnitude is retarded.

Remember, they don't need Senate/Council members, they just need access to higher end technicians, scientists who have access to the computer systems. And these positions are not necessarily under surveillance all the time - unlike your posts which have important military/political information passing through.

This is not the Colonials we're talking about here, where destroying Earth completely cripples humanity. The Federation has 150 member planets, each probably as heavily industrialized and populated as Earth. For the Romulans and Klingons to compete, they must have around the same resources.

The Feds, Klingons and Romulans also don't rely on fixed defenses like a "defense net" that has to be disabled like the Colonials. They rely on mobile starship defenses that would have to be engaged to be destroyed.

The "prefix code" argument is a load of bullshit. The Feds are stupid, but even the Feds seem to realize the importance of antimatter containment. The fact that they can eject the warp core shows that they place special importance on this, and they also keep antimatter unloaded from their torpedoes until they are fired. The computer virus mentioned, did it ever get into the critical antimatter systems? Of course not, or we would have lost several seasons of TNG. The Galaxy warp core problem was fixed, I'm tired of seeing it brought up, and there's no evidence that it is anything but a class specific problem. And of course we're forgetting they eventually destroyed the computer virus.

Also, for a question of Federation shipyard abilities, by Alyeska's calculations the Fed can build around 1000 small frame ships (Defiant/Vulture/etc) class ships a year, and 200 large frame (Galaxies/Sovereigns) a year at UPS alone. This makes sense given the ramp up to the Dominion war and how quickly SF expanded from 40 ships at Wolf 359 being crippling to thousands of ships in DS9. That's what, one or two orders of magnitude more shipbuilding capability than the Cylons will have with their 10 basestars. If the Cylons start playing the Romulans off the Klingons and the Feds, shipbuilding will be accelerated to the max.

The control codes argument is a load of bullshit. Have we ever seen a Federation Admiral order a Galaxy to go to a certain location, or remote commanderring of a vessel with control codes? Does the Fed President have control codes to every Starfleet vessel and is able to disable them at his whim? Obviously not, the only evidence we have is of a prefix code that can lower shields, and Captain Maxwell's ship was able to overcome a Cardassian ship despite Picard giving the Cardassians Maxwell's prefix code so the prefix code doesn't disable weapons.

Brian