Technomage vs Boba Fett

[Mopeyennuui]

All Spells of Destruction are usable. All abilties are usable. (For both).

Fight!

[ali-sama]

wrong forum bub.

[Mopeyennuui]

Right. Please moce to OSF,

[NecronLord]

I would enjoy seeing Boba blast the Technomage, because I can't fucking stand the technomage wankery from those books.

Though I've not read them, I am told that they include, as well as 'universe destroying' 'Spells' of Destruction, such violations of the canon as Kosh Naranek not fighting back against his murderers, and doing an Obi-Wan Kenobi impression. This is blatantly bullshit, certainly JMS claims Kosh fought back against them, and I would be unsurprised to learn that at least one of the Shadows died in the fight.

[Rye]

Where does it even imply Kosh fought back? I thought he considered it a retribution killing for the vorlons attacking the shadows outright?

[Nephilim]

Where does it even imply Kosh fought back? I thought he considered it a retribution killing for the vorlons attacking the shadows outright?

It was, that was the point of him being afraid of even lending the Vorlon's help to the younger races, because he knew that the Shadows would come to him for retribution.

[NecronLord]

Where does it even imply Kosh fought back? I thought he considered it a retribution killing for the vorlons attacking the shadows outright?

If you were a diplomat, who'd started a war, would you go obi-wan simply because of Karma? The First Ones are meant to be knowlegeable, powerful, and dignified. Not stupid.

In any case, here it is:

Questioner: Why didn't you show the fight between Kosh and the Shadows?
JMS: I thought about that long and hard when writing the script, and I finally came to the conclusion that there was literally *nothing* we could show that wouldn't be disappointing...it's a conflict on another whole plane, and should have an almost cosmic or ethereal feel to it. If we showed Kosh shooting a defensive field, or a shadow opening his suit with a can opener, or anything else obvious and physical, it would've diminished the scene. The vorlons are mythic, indirect, you see them out of the corner of your eye, so it fit that the proper metaphor would be to handle the battle that way.

It was not shown because filming a telepathic battle between characters whose faces can't be seen and who can't really emote is pretty much impossible. Kosh did indeed fight back.

It is also implied that the only reason he stayed was to prevent the shadows taking their vengance on someone else less directly responsible and less able to defend themselves, such as Sheridan.

[NecronLord]

Think about this. How dissapointing would the following be?

INT Kosh's quarters Day.

MORDEN stands just inside the doorway. Three ShADOWS appear, walking through the mist. Reveal KOSH's shoulders, with SHADOWS standing together in front of him.

SHADOWS eyes flash.

KOSH's eye narrows.

Lead SHADOW twitches its legs spastically.

KOSH shudders and his encounter suit begins melting from within with some internal heat.

Screen whites out as Kosh Dies

EXT: Babylon 5.

Blast sweeps across the station.

[Nephilim]

Questioner: Why didn't you show the fight between Kosh and the Shadows?
JMS: I thought about that long and hard when writing the script, and I finally came to the conclusion that there was literally *nothing* we could show that wouldn't be disappointing...it's a conflict on another whole plane, and should have an almost cosmic or ethereal feel to it. If we showed Kosh shooting a defensive field, or a shadow opening his suit with a can opener, or anything else obvious and physical, it would've diminished the scene. The vorlons are mythic, indirect, you see them out of the corner of your eye, so it fit that the proper metaphor would be to handle the battle that way.

It was not shown because filming a telepathic battle between characters whose faces can't be seen and who can't really emote is pretty much impossible. Kosh did indeed fight back.

It is also implied that the only reason he stayed was to prevent the shadows taking their vengance on someone else less directly responsible and less able to defend themselves, such as Sheridan.[/quote]

Have you read the novel? He resigned himself to the fate that he had chosen. Why would he fight back if he did indeed understand that the Shadows were going to go to someone to exact their retribution for the Vorlon's involvement? He was directly responsible for that, and even Sheridan in the same episode stated that that's where his fear came from when he lashed out at him when he asked for his help against the Shadows.

In the book, Kosh does think about fighting back, and in a manner he does, but ONLY enough to buy himself more time so he can speak to Sheridan and take the risk of actually implanting a part of himself into him, someone who he thought might not even be able to carry a Vorlon because he had not been prepared. It goes on to describe how he calmed his ship down so it wouldn't rush to his defense, as he knew that would destroy Babylon 5, and he knew that if he fought back the only outcome would be just that, B5's destruction.

But as i said, and as shown in the show (the book is not contradicted in any way, and your quote doesn't contradict it either as it just says how the battle cannot be shown on that medium, very different from what you can accomplish in written form) Kosh resigned himself to his fate and only held on long enough to incospicously implant himself into Sheridan so he could be there, in at least some form, to help him when he went to Z'ha'Dum.

[Nephilim]

Think about this. How dissapointing would the following be?

INT Kosh's quarters Day.

MORDEN stands just inside the doorway. Three ShADOWS appear, walking through the mist. Reveal KOSH's shoulders, with SHADOWS standing together in front of him.

SHADOWS eyes flash.

KOSH's eye narrows.

Lead SHADOW twitches its legs spastically.

KOSH shudders and his encounter suit begins melting from within with some internal heat.

Screen whites out as Kosh Dies

EXT: Babylon 5.

Blast sweeps across the station.

Read the book, it goes into alot of detail of how Kosh died and it was far more complicated than that. It took a while for the Shadows to even break through his encounter suit, and when they did it took them even longer to take him apart piece by piece melting part of his essense away as they lashed at him. Each of the Shadow's eyes are capable of projecting some kind of beam that are capable of hurting Vorlons, they were basically like whips tearing him limb from limb until his core essence was destroyed and died. But not before he implanted a part of himself into Sheridan.

[NecronLord]

Have you read the novel?

I've already said I haven't.

He resigned himself to the fate that he had chosen.

Not according to JMS

Why would he fight back if he did indeed understand that the Shadows were going to go to someone to exact their retribution for the Vorlon's involvement?

Being a First One does not make you free of fear, arrogance, or anger. Why should it kill the survival instinct?

He was directly responsible for that, and even Sheridan in the same episode stated that that's where his fear came from when he lashed out at him when he asked for his help against the Shadows.

Yes. He did indeed.

In the book, Kosh does think about fighting back, and in a manner he does, but ONLY enough to buy himself more time so he can speak to Sheridan and take the risk of actually implanting a part of himself into him, someone who he thought might not even be able to carry a Vorlon because he had not been prepared. It goes on to describe how he calmed his ship down so it wouldn't rush to his defense, as he knew that would destroy Babylon 5, and he knew that if he fought back the only outcome would be just that, B5's destruction.

The bit about calming the ship down is logical. The bit of him going obi-wan and deciding, well, 'fair dos to the Shadows, it's karma' is not.

But as i said, and as shown in the show (the book is not contradicted in any way, and your quote doesn't contradict it either as it just says how the battle cannot be shown on that medium, very different from what you can accomplish in written form) Kosh resigned himself to his fate and only held on long enough to incospicously implant himself into Sheridan so he could be there, in at least some form, to help him when he went to Z'ha'Dum.

Uhuh. So, according to the book, the vorlons (or at least Kosh's factionare quite prepared to resign themselves to the fate of being killed in vengance attacks? Seems a bit different to what happens later, what with the determination of removing the 'disease.'

Looks like bullshit, smells like bullshit. It's bullshit. Even if that is not at odds with what is meant to happen, it is still shit, and a valid reason for me to loathe the Technomage trilogy.

[NecronLord]

Read the book,

From everything I've heard about it, I'd rather read the phone book.

it goes into alot of detail of how Kosh died and it was far more complicated than that. It took a while for the Shadows to even break through his encounter suit,

How long a while? It didn't look like very long on screen.

and when they did it took them even longer to take him apart piece by piece melting part of his essense away

That however, does fit with the 'tore him apart' bit.

as they lashed at him. Each of the Shadow's eyes are capable of projecting some kind of beam that are capable of hurting Vorlons, they were basically like whips

Thank you. That image alone has put me off. Shadows with a dozen energy whips flying from their faces? Uh huh.

EDIT: In fact. I think JMS' suggestion of them attacking him with a giant can opener is better. That at least has intentional comedy value.

[NecronLord]

I will point out that I'm not arguing that these books are non-canon, or any such thing. There are large parts of the babylon 5 canon that deserve to be burned, trampled, and shot into a star. Not least of which, is this monstrous gobbling turkey.

[Darth Fanboy]

How much is Fett being paid to win?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I would enjoy seeing Boba blast the Technomage, because I can't fucking stand the technomage wankery from those books.

Though I've not read them, I am told that they include, as well as 'universe destroying' 'Spells' of Destruction, such violations of the canon as Kosh Naranek not fighting back against his murderers, and doing an Obi-Wan Kenobi impression. This is blatantly bullshit, certainly JMS claims Kosh fought back against them, and I would be unsurprised to learn that at least one of the Shadows died in the fight.

It's got a lot worse problems than that. Although you are wrong about the universe-destroying spell, they do have spells given to them by the Shadows that the Shadows themselves seem incapable of using. When a single technomage can blow up a battlecrab in a 1-on-1 fight, and he's using shadowtech to do it, you know someone is wanking.

Not to mention the characterization of the technomages. They are all petty control freaks who don't understand how their own technology works. Whaaa? That seems to fly in the face of established canon (at least in Geometry of Shadows) and it really takes away the awe and mystery.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

JMS stated that Kosh wounded the Shadows attacking him. That seems to imply he fought back, doesn't it?