Babylon 5's best and worst moments

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Post by Stofsk »

mmar wrote:The whole Centauri Prime pop. numbers is explained in the context of the overall decay of their Empire. Basicly, they became compleatly decadent and let power slip from them. I think it's actualy mentioned that their pop. numbers fell over the years.
Are you sure you're not thinking of the Minbari? I am not aware of anything in an episode that states the Centauri population has been steadily declining over a period of hundreds of years. But I have heard that in regards to the Minbari.
Also, because they have been in space for a long while as a expansionalistic empire their colonies have higher (proportionaly) population then colonies of most of the other races.
That can make a strange sort of sense, if it can be confirmed.
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Post by Nephilim »

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:I believe the low population of Centauri Prime was caused by a war with another sentient species ( The Xon) on their planet over a thousand years ago in their timeline. After wiping out the Xon, their population must have also been nearly destroyed in the process, since every year they celebrate their survival as a species instead of mourning those who were lost.

Either that or the Centauri has hidiously low birthrates despite having six..... appendages.
That doesn't make sense. The Centauri, are per canon have a population of over 40 billion (When Adira tells Londo that he's going to be Emperor of over 40 billion Centauri). Centauri Prime has a population of 3 billion, which must mean that the bulk of the Centauri population is concentrated on their colony worlds, which since the Centauri are an old race (they've been spacefaring for 800 or so years) gives them time to actually build up their worlds to support that kind of population.

On the subject on the EA, Mars is their largest colony, but also you have to see the planet itself. In the show its stated that its being terraformed and also visible by the fact that you can just wear a breathing mask and some extra layers of clothing and survive on the surface. But pretty much all the worlds that we've seen from the EA don't look all that hospitable. So that would explain why they have such low population densities, they're just not that good to support large populations.
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Post by Stofsk »

The Wookiee wrote:
Batman wrote:I agree some of the dialogue was...not fit to comment upon but what was wrong with the special effects? They were certainly not Oscar material but I rather liked the PPG effects,
Moving lens flares don't really impress me.
Oh god, if it is one thing I now hate in CGI special effects, it is lens flares. Fuck them.
That's exactly my problem with the effects. They LOOKED like CGI. It was downright amateurish at times.
True. Honestly though, I liked the CGI. I can forgive B5 because it had fuck all budget to work with, and it was the best they could do. It wasn't perfect, but it was enough to give you the sense of scale. Unlike say, DS9, which seemed to be all alone in deep space, B5 was often surrounded by departing and arriving starships. For a TV show, that is pretty impressive.
That's another thing. When the Whitestar fired, it looked like it was shooting candy.
John Crichton parodied it best: "Stop! Or I'll shoot you... with... blobs of red goo!" :)

I didn't like the White Stars for that reason and others. I much prefered the Earth and similar level warships (Narn, Centauri, Drazi). The White Stars often seemed to be too powerful in too small a frame, and I have a dislike for anything Minbari related. But Novas just scream "Time to die, alien scum!" 8)
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Post by Junghalli »

Darth Wong wrote:And quite frankly, I've grown to hate anything in space that carries the word "organic". It smacks of a flimsy excuse to use low-complexity models and tell people that the cheesy squid-like things are actually better than real-looking ships because of that whole "organic technology" brainbug.
I hate B10T3K too, but I actually really liked the Vorlon ships. I generally liked all the alien designs from B5 because they really did look alien. No human engineer would ever come up with something that would look like a Narn ship or a Minbari ship. If anything I thought the whole biotech angle ruined that for me. Why do the Vorlon ships have to have biotech to look squiddy?
Although, I'd love to see a species in SF that uses organic spaceships and they're crap, just like anybody with any knowledge whatsoever of engineering would expect them to be! Take that B10T3K!
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Post by NecronLord »

Junghalli wrote:Although, I'd love to see a species in SF that uses organic spaceships and they're crap, just like anybody with any knowledge whatsoever of engineering would expect them to be! Take that B10T3K!
Peacekeepers. Leviathans are nice, but no match for metal ships.
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Post by Junghalli »

Stofsk wrote:It is the ridiculousness of having 10 billion people on Earth and a mere 2 million on Mars, who we are often told is the EA's biggest colony.
You know, a big problem with moving around large numbers of people between planets is transportation. Unless you have huge fleets of spacecraft moving millions of people to different planets in a short period of time is extremely challenging, if not impossible. So having "large" colonies in the 22nd/23rd centuries having populations in the millions is really not unrealistic at all.
Fine if Earths population leveled off. (I would like to know how, but whatever)
Why wouldn't it level off? Today it's mostly the third world countries that have the booming population growth. The US is growing slowly and parts of western Europe are having population declines. Population growth seems to disappear as affluence levels go up, hence things like contraception become more available and the pressure to have many children to support the family is lessened.
Nevermind the fact that B5, a space station that was constructed in a few years, can support 250K population.
How many such colonies does the EA maintain? If they've got a lot of these big outposts that could be where all their colonial effort is going, and they haven't invested much in massively populating their older colonies.
If B5 the space station can have such a high population for being ~8KM long, and be constructed in so short a time, then why can't Mars have a population in the tens, or hundreds of millions? It is meant to be the second-biggest EA planet.

That's true.
Not quite like Coruscant, but the Centauri Republic has been around for hundreds of years. Again, like with Earth, I would like to know what happened to all that population.
Either it was never there in the first place or the Centauri like to keep their homeworld fairly open, and probably give incentives to have small families.
Or if Centauri Prime is the noble's capital and all the plebes live on the colonies (kind of a small section of a modern city being the 'rich suburbs' while everywhere else is poor or middle-class, or if Centauri Prime is the 'Forbidden City' of the Republic).
Given the 40 billion Centauri quote somebody trotted out that seems very likely. Centauri Prime could be like Washington DC: an administrative capital but not a particularly big or important population center.
It still strikes me as too little.

To my mind any planet with a population measured in the billions is at least moderately heavily populated. What really galled me was in a Trek fanfic I read once where the population of Karemma, a major Dominion conquest, was six million people. A homeworld, six million people, now that is what I call absurd minimalism.
Sheridan had to choose where to deploy his fleet, and he chose some unknown planet called 'Coriana 6' because it had 6 billion population, while Centauri Prime had 3 billion. Coriana 6 is never seen, never heard from again, and no Coriana-ian is ever introduced to the show. So how does Sheridan know about them?
Maybe it's one of those heavily populated Centauri colonies you mentioned earlier.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Leviathans are nice, but no match for metal ships.
Well, fully-grown Leviathan gunships were expected to be capable of going toe-to-toe with command carriers, but Leviathans were chiefly metal and inorganic parts.
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Stofsk wrote:Bester reminds me of the Nietsche quote about the monsters and the abyss, it is like he has stared into the abyss too long and has lost his humanity as a result.
He did more deathbed scans than anybody else which supposedly damaged him by leaving part of his soul on “the other side” along with eventually paralysing his hand and almost killing him.
- What happens to Bester? How the fuck should I know, I have all five seasons and his fate isn't in there. Absolutely no closure.
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He loses the Telepath war, goes on the run, falls in love, dissects his lovers mind, gets hunted down by Garibaldi, ends up in prison and dies just after his paralysed arm begins to work again.
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Post by Noble Ire »

NecronLord wrote:
Junghalli wrote:Although, I'd love to see a species in SF that uses organic spaceships and they're crap, just like anybody with any knowledge whatsoever of engineering would expect them to be! Take that B10T3K!
Peacekeepers. Leviathans are nice, but no match for metal ships.
Even though people always seem to miss this, Yuuzhan Vong ships were also pretty crappy overall. Certainly, they had weird tech, but in a toe to toe fight, metal tech almost always won, the Vong usually had to use overwhelming numbers or tricks of some sorts. Dovin Bassals are easily taken down, and yorik coral disintigrates rapidly under any laser fire. Heck, if a cruiser analog can be destroyed by a squadron of fighters and a light frigate, it isnt that great.
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Post by Skylon »

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:I believe the low population of Centauri Prime was caused by a war with another sentient species ( The Xon) on their planet over a thousand years ago in their timeline. After wiping out the Xon, their population must have also been nearly destroyed in the process, since every year they celebrate their survival as a species instead of mourning those who were lost.

Either that or the Centauri has hidiously low birthrates despite having six..... appendages.
That is true, the Centauri did have another sentiant race on their planet for thousands of years. According to JMS it was basically as if the Neanderthal's had survived on a seperate continent for thousands of years till complex, pre-industrial societies developed. That could have held up population growth. But, the low Population of Centauri Prime was always pegged as a way to illustrate their decline, like Europe of today, lower birth rates.

As for humans, I believe that the EA really doesn't have all that many colonies. The episode "And Now For a Word" as I recall mentions Earth has established two-dozen colonies since contact with the Centauri. Might give the episode a re-watch just to check.

As for war casualties, "In The Beginning" noted the Minbari primarily focused their assaults on military assets, ignoring civilian targets. The plan seemed to be, destroy the humans defenses, then wipe out everybody else.

If so, also, EA capital ships during the Minbari war lacked any form of artificial gravity and likely had smaller crews (b5tech.com seems to support this as the crew of Hyperions and Novas is less than half that of an Omega).
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Post by Nephtys »

I figure all those factors mean Centauri prime has a low pop. Let's list.

1. Life and Death struggle with Xon for hundreds/thousands of years.
2. Declining empire status, perhaps lower natural birthrate.
3. Luxurious lifestyle and cityplanning leave them far from dense, and rather pretty to look at. Probably deliberate.
4. Possible increased migration to colony worlds and the like, sapping homeworld of population. You don't get it back overnight.
5. Centauri Prime may have less inhabitable surface area than Earth anyway.

As for Mars being small... don't forget, you need to feed those people. And many of them moved voluntarilly, so you have to give choice of food too. I suppose B5 can get away with the food issue because they have a lot of trade with neighbors. Not to mention Earthlings typically didn't care much for space for the most part.
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Post by Kenoshi »

HemlockGrey wrote:
Leviathans are nice, but no match for metal ships.
Well, fully-grown Leviathan gunships were expected to be capable of going toe-to-toe with command carriers, but Leviathans were chiefly metal and inorganic parts.
This is true. Talyn could tear some serious shit up when it needed to (or just felt like it). Just because a ship is "living" doesn't mean that it's a flying porkchop.

My understanding of the "living" B5 ships is that they were made out of a quasi-living metal (see episode "Infection"....at your own risk) that was capable of self-repair but otherwise had electronic parts.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

This is true. Talyn could tear some serious shit up when it needed to (or just felt like it). Just because a ship is "living" doesn't mean that it's a flying porkchop.
That's the thing about the Leviathans. They're "alive" but they're not "organic".
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Post by Kenoshi »

HemlockGrey wrote:
This is true. Talyn could tear some serious shit up when it needed to (or just felt like it). Just because a ship is "living" doesn't mean that it's a flying porkchop.
That's the thing about the Leviathans. They're "alive" but they're not "organic".
I see your point now. "Organic" refers specifically to flying pork chops.
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Post by CJvR »

Centauri Prime's low population could also be explained by high costs of realestate. Only the rich, their servants and the goverment can afford to stay on the old Imperial capitol, like Edding's Melcene empire. Every Centauri doing something useful have emigrated to the colonies over the centuries.

The low population of Mars could depend on the fact that there is little incentive to move people there. Mars might be a place to work but to live there permanently? With Earth a relatively short cheap flight away? Compared to Mars the Sahara and Antarctica are gardens to rival Eden. Also the Mars colonies have been the target of several devastating terrorist attacks IIRC, that might cool the immigration desire somewhat.
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Post by Stofsk »

HemlockGrey wrote:
This is true. Talyn could tear some serious shit up when it needed to (or just felt like it). Just because a ship is "living" doesn't mean that it's a flying porkchop.
That's the thing about the Leviathans. They're "alive" but they're not "organic".
They're... not? I thought they were. The fact that Moya gave birth to Talon seems to suggest they're like huge... space whales. Or something.

Farscape's a weird show.
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Post by Pcm979 »

AFAIK they're alive in that they grow, reproduce etc, but they're made up primarily of nonorganic components.
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Post by Edi »

Junghalli wrote:I hate B10T3K too, but I actually really liked the Vorlon ships. I generally liked all the alien designs from B5 because they really did look alien. No human engineer would ever come up with something that would look like a Narn ship or a Minbari ship.
I don't think the Narn ships looked all that strange, but there is a very good reason why a human engineer would not design a ship in the shape of the Minbari cruiser: It looks like a fucking tropical fish, and that's exactly what it always reminds me of every time I see one. Totally ruins them for me, it's hard to take them seriously with that. I didn't like the squid shape of the Vorlon ships or the excessive spininess of the Shadow vessels either. The Narn and the Drakh had the best looking capital ships in the show.

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Post by NecronLord »

Leviathans seem to be made of metal, yes, but are partly organic. They are possibly something like coral, with the metal being laid out by the organic creautre.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

They're... not? I thought they were. The fact that Moya gave birth to Talon seems to suggest they're like huge... space whales. Or something.

Farscape's a weird show.
I want to know where the hell Moya was getting all the material needed to grow Talyn, build all the DRDs, repair damage, etc...that's a lot of shit to pull out of space.
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Post by Junghalli »

Edi wrote:I don't think the Narn ships looked all that strange
Now that I think of it the design itself isn't very alien, it's mostly the color scheme.
but there is a very good reason why a human engineer would not design a ship in the shape of the Minbari cruiser: It looks like a fucking tropical fish, and that's exactly what it always reminds me of every time I see one. Totally ruins them for me, it's hard to take them seriously with that.
That's what I liked about it. You can totally tell that something that thought very differently from a human concieved that design. No human engineer would ever design a ship with that many curves. And it was by in large a sound design (although the weapon mounts always struck me as being rather fragile). We've always been more into boxes. Same goes for the Vorlon ships.
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