Jankowski after meeting the Minbari executes a Cole protocol

[rommel17]

The Prometheus Survey Group after their encounter with the Minbari avoid going home and instead head out into deep space to throw off the Minbari. How does this effect events. Granted that the Minbari will run the the Prometheus down sooner or later, but with no direct route home, might the Minbari conclude they were rougues or still hold the EAS accountable and search for Earth. Then again might Earth send another task group with a more politically astute Captain to find the Prometheus. Hmm... By the way John Middleton Inc. makes terrible Pipe tobacco,Just kidding.

[andrewgpaul]

The Prometheus incident wasn't actually first contact; Dr ... thingy met one before the war, remember, and the Grey Council was, IIRC, aware of their existence before then, too. If they really wanted, they could probably get information on the location of Earth by leaning on the Centauri, Narn and League worlds.

[rommel17]

The Prometheus incident wasn't actually first contact; Dr ... thingy met one before the war, remember, and the Grey Council was, IIRC, aware of their existence before then, too. If they really wanted, they could probably get information on the location of Earth by leaning on the Centauri, Narn and League worlds.

True, but not enough for to implicate anything. The fact Prometheus is going deep space would perplex the the Council and make them wonder if they were Pirates and not Government Sanctioned. Still, this debate is young and many points and controversy are to be stir up as is the way I like things.

[Lost Soal]

The Minbari were in no fit state to think rationally or care that the Prometheus was going into deep space.
First thought, "There trying to protect their home, they must have been ordered to do this."

[rommel17]

The Minbari were in no fit state to think rationally or care that the Prometheus was going into deep space.
First thought, "There trying to protect their home, they must have been ordered to do this."

They still don't know where EAS space is, which got the Warrior Caste in a fighting mood. With no big battle, the Warriors don't get Battle lust. Plus the run might result in the Capture of the Prometheus's crew. Which can lead to other things....

[Lost Soal]

The Minbari were in no fit state to think rationally or care that the Prometheus was going into deep space.
First thought, "There trying to protect their home, they must have been ordered to do this."

They still don't know where EAS space is, which got the Warrior Caste in a fighting mood. With no big battle, the Warriors don't get Battle lust. Plus the run might result in the Capture of the Prometheus's crew. Which can lead to other things....

The Gray Council made the decision. That’s 3 Warrior Caste, 3 Worker Caste and 3 Religious Caste. The final vote was given by Delenn who was in border line psychotic at the death of her mentor, whether the Warriors get battle lust or not is irrelevant.. If anything the delay in enacting their divine retribution would make them even more pissed

[Thag]

The Minbari were in no fit state to think rationally or care that the Prometheus was going into deep space.
First thought, "There trying to protect their home, they must have been ordered to do this."

They still don't know where EAS space is, which got the Warrior Caste in a fighting mood. With no big battle, the Warriors don't get Battle lust. Plus the run might result in the Capture of the Prometheus's crew. Which can lead to other things....

You're also assuming that the Minbari will be willing to take the crews of the expedition prisoner. For the first several months of the war at least, their attitude was shoot first, shoot some more, keep shooting, and grind up the pieces. Very few survivors will be left to become prisoners.

As for finding EA territory, all they would have to do is pull into orbit of some other races planet and say, "Tell us where they are, and you get to live." Nobody except the Vorlons are going to tell them to go screw themselves.

[Skylon]

Then the Minbari go to the Centauri, or the Narn, or someone else asking "Where the hell are these people from? Tell us or suffer our wrath"

The Minbari knew who the humans were, they just had not had formal contact. The Minbari had pretty much dropped off the face of galactic affairs, but could easily locate EA territories.

[Temjin]

I'm not completely sure if the Minbari cared if Earth ordered it or not. The Minbari were not completey sane after the Dukat. They just wanted to annihalate the humans.

[Temjin]

"The Minbari were not completey sane after the Dukat" should read as "The Minbari were not completey sane after the death of Dukat."

[rommel17]

The Minbari were in no fit state to think rationally or care that the Prometheus was going into deep space.
First thought, "There trying to protect their home, they must have been ordered to do this."

They still don't know where EAS space is, which got the Warrior Caste in a fighting mood. With no big battle, the Warriors don't get Battle lust. Plus the run might result in the Capture of the Prometheus's crew. Which can lead to other things....

You're also assuming that the Minbari will be willing to take the crews of the expedition prisoner. For the first several months of the war at least, their attitude was shoot first, shoot some more, keep shooting, and grind up the pieces. Very few survivors will be left to become prisoners.

As for finding EA territory, all they would have to do is pull into orbit of some other races planet and say, "Tell us where they are, and you get to live." Nobody except the Vorlons are going to tell them to go screw themselves.

Why not capture the Crew. They know where EAS Space is. Remember, they followed the Taskforce back. If Jankowski is leading them nowhere, they are going to want the information, so they capture the ship and interrogate the crew with the Triluminary. Also Gunboat Diplomacy will backfire on them and result in the League, Narn, and Centauri Uniting against the Minbari much like when the Shadows began openly attacking them. The perception that the Prometheus was a rougue ship will further bolster the EAS. The Centauri alne have the Ability to crush the Minbari if the gutless Emperor would get over his guilt concerning Narn. Then again Refa would be quite able to bypass the Emperor's authority.

[Thag]

From ITB, Delenn, after the attack:

"They deserve no mercy. Strike them down! Follow them to their base, and kill them all! All of them! All of them! No mercy!"

That's not the attitude of somebody willing to take prisoners, lack of information or not.

As for the league uniting, it took Sheridan's resurrection and return to get them to form their alliance against the shadows. Last time I checked, there weren't any potential messiahs hanging around the B5verse during this period. And we can't forget Londo's remark at the beginning, either:

"Even at the height of the Centauri Republic, when we were expanding in all directions, we didn't oppose the Minbari.

[rommel17]

From ITB, Delenn, after the attack:

"They deserve no mercy. Strike them down! Follow them to their base, and kill them all! All of them! All of them! No mercy!"

That's not the attitude of somebody willing to take prisoners, lack of information or not.

As for the league uniting, it took Sheridan's resurrection and return to get them to form their alliance against the shadows. Last time I checked, there weren't any potential messiahs hanging around the B5verse during this period. And we can't forget Londo's remark at the beginning, either:

"Even at the height of the Centauri Republic, when we were expanding in all directions, we didn't oppose the Minbari.

They united before that to fight at the battle of Sector 83. If the Minbari start threatening the League of Non-Aligned worlds, they are going end up in war with them. Among the League is the Vree-Ventuki Conglomerate with the same technology as the Minbari, thought the Ventuki are only one guild with economic ties and do not represent all Vree. Still the outpour will be immense and overwhelming. Not even the Minbari would be able to survive.

[rommel17]

Then there is this." By the earth year 1695 the Centauri had become known as The Lion of the Galaxy, reaching its political, economical and imperial peak. By this time the Centauri Republic consisted of 127 solar systems, a total of 309 colony worlds, effectively controlling one quarter of the entire galaxy. So vast and powerful was the Centauri Republic, even the vaunted Minbari Federation would dare not cross them. Though still technologically superior, the Minbari could not hope to marshal the power needed to combat the Centauri military machine and its near limitless resources." http://www.b5tech.com/centauri/centauri ... story.html
Then, political problems brought them low till their Emperor Turhan died, with his death the Centauri flexed its muscles fully and conquered vast tracks. If the Minbari start bullying the Centauri with Gunboat Diplomacy, Refa and his group will probaly remove Turhan and fight back. This also raises other issues that are for another post.

[Nephilim]

From ITB, Delenn, after the attack:

"They deserve no mercy. Strike them down! Follow them to their base, and kill them all! All of them! All of them! No mercy!"

That's not the attitude of somebody willing to take prisoners, lack of information or not.

As for the league uniting, it took Sheridan's resurrection and return to get them to form their alliance against the shadows. Last time I checked, there weren't any potential messiahs hanging around the B5verse during this period. And we can't forget Londo's remark at the beginning, either:

"Even at the height of the Centauri Republic, when we were expanding in all directions, we didn't oppose the Minbari.

They united before that to fight at the battle of Sector 83. If the Minbari start threatening the League of Non-Aligned worlds, they are going end up in war with them. Among the League is the Vree-Ventuki Conglomerate with the same technology as the Minbari, thought the Ventuki are only one guild with economic ties and do not represent all Vree. Still the outpour will be immense and overwhelming. Not even the Minbari would be able to survive.

The thing is, the Minbari did threaten the League to stay out of the war with Earth of face destruction (Source: B5Wars Fluff). And the League backed away as it saw what the Minbari were doing to the Earth, who had in turn saved all of them from the Dilgar. If the power that turned the tide in the Dilgar War was losing, how the HELL do you expect the League to magically turn the tide of such a war?

As said before, not even the Centauri threatened the Minbari at their height and the Centauri were capable of holding their own against the League on 12 fronts and were even making leeway into League controlled worlds (mostly Drazi, Pak'ma'ra, and Brakiri) despite being at war with almost the entire League simultaneously. Still think that the League would be able to magically turn the War against the Minbari?

Fact is, the Minbari are the strongest military power in Babylon 5 among the younger races. It would take an alliance consisting of most of the younger races to actually threaten the Minbari and their fleet. So please... stop talking out of your ass.

[rommel17]

From ITB, Delenn, after the attack:

"They deserve no mercy. Strike them down! Follow them to their base, and kill them all! All of them! All of them! No mercy!"

That's not the attitude of somebody willing to take prisoners, lack of information or not.

As for the league uniting, it took Sheridan's resurrection and return to get them to form their alliance against the shadows. Last time I checked, there weren't any potential messiahs hanging around the B5verse during this period. And we can't forget Londo's remark at the beginning, either:

"Even at the height of the Centauri Republic, when we were expanding in all directions, we didn't oppose the Minbari.

They united before that to fight at the battle of Sector 83. If the Minbari start threatening the League of Non-Aligned worlds, they are going end up in war with them. Among the League is the Vree-Ventuki Conglomerate with the same technology as the Minbari, thought the Ventuki are only one guild with economic ties and do not represent all Vree. Still the outpour will be immense and overwhelming. Not even the Minbari would be able to survive.

The thing is, the Minbari did threaten the League to stay out of the war with Earth of face destruction (Source: B5Wars Fluff). And the League backed away as it saw what the Minbari were doing to the Earth, who had in turn saved all of them from the Dilgar. If the power that turned the tide in the Dilgar War was losing, how the HELL do you expect the League to magically turn the tide of such a war?

As said before, not even the Centauri threatened the Minbari at their height and the Centauri were capable of holding their own against the League on 12 fronts and were even making leeway into League controlled worlds (mostly Drazi, Pak'ma'ra, and Brakiri) despite being at war with almost the entire League simultaneously. Still think that the League would be able to magically turn the War against the Minbari?

Fact is, the Minbari are the strongest military power in Babylon 5 among the younger races. It would take an alliance consisting of most of the younger races to actually threaten the Minbari and their fleet. So please... stop talking out of your ass.

Then taking that to its logical conclusion why did the League fight when Shadows and Vorlons decided to annilihate them? Also the League was currently at war with one another as well by Shadow political manuevering, and excaberated by the fact that the Centauri had more ships than the League combined. Politics are the ultimate deciding force in war, a dynamic speech, careful propaganda, the fact Jankowski exceeded his orders and went rougue, and the fact he went into deep space makes Earth seem like an innocence victim being held responsible for rougues. If this is how the Minbari act, it would threaten the League's ability to trade and makes animosity a dangerous threat if another race uses another race's ships to attack a Minbari ship and lead the Minbari to destroy another race. Thats not talking out of my ass, that is sheer pyschology. The Minbari would make themselves appear like the Dilgar. Plus if it ever got out the Warrior Caste was hiding Death Walker... Its not the battles won, but Politics. A united stance would send a powerful message. Now the Minbari might not care but as numbers begin to tell despite an average 5 Alliance Capital Ships lost for every Minbari Capital Ship and 12 Fighters for every Minbari fighter. Add in the League and 40,000 Capital Ships, plus more being built, of Earth, eventually the loss would become attritional in which Earth would have the material edge despite inferior technology, a situation much like the start of World War two for us, though the Minbari would maintain the technological edge. This doesn't include Ground Combat where the war was dragged out on. Eventually a Minbari ship would get captured and some tech recovered. If Emperor Turhan dies through assasination and Refa's faction gains power, the Minbari would have the political will to start fighting and the end result is what you saw in the show, a mass power grab that even unaided would have seen vast conquest against a divided League unless they united under a dynamic leader. Then there is the utter destruction that would make the Shadows rejoice and the Vorlons groan as races that would be useful against the Shadows are bled white and the Minbari Warrior Caste lose a huge percentage of needed warriors. This would spiral so out of the Vorlons control that they either interfere or become laughingstocks to the Shadows.Now we come to Delenn, once Kosh and Kosh show Dukhat's message, this buys her time if the Prometheus heads towards deep space for 3 months which is the Maxium it can go before reaching the point of no return. Since Prometheus did not lead them to an EAS Base, Delenn like at the Battle of the Line suggests to the Warrior Caste that they take a Prisoner. Enter the Triluminary. The Minbari return the few they spare and Jankowski to EAS Territory. Jankowski is stripped of his rank and if lucky gets dishonorably discharged, death of memory if not.

[Thag]

Then taking that to its logical conclusion why did the League fight when Shadows and Vorlons decided to annilihate them? Also the League was currently at war with one another as well by Shadow political manuevering, and excaberated by the fact that the Centauri had more ships than the League combined. Politics are the ultimate deciding force in war, a dynamic speech, careful propaganda, the fact Jankowski exceeded his orders and went rougue, and the fact he went into deep space makes Earth seem like an innocence victim being held responsible for rougues. If this is how the Minbari act, it would threaten the League's ability to trade and makes animosity a dangerous threat if another race uses another race's ships to attack a Minbari ship and lead the Minbari to destroy another race. Thats not talking out of my ass, that is sheer pyschology. The Minbari would make themselves appear like the Dilgar. Plus if it ever got out the Warrior Caste was hiding Death Walker... Its not the battles won, but Politics. A united stance would send a powerful message. Now the Minbari might not care but as numbers begin to tell despite an average 5 Alliance Capital Ships lost for every Minbari Capital Ship and 12 Fighters for every Minbari fighter. Add in the League and 40,000 Capital Ships, plus more being built, of Earth, eventually the loss would become attritional in which Earth would have the material edge despite inferior technology, a situation much like the start of World War two for us, though the Minbari would maintain the technological edge. This doesn't include Ground Combat where the war was dragged out on. Eventually a Minbari ship would get captured and some tech recovered. If Emperor Turhan dies through assasination and Refa's faction gains power, the Minbari would have the political will to start fighting and the end result is what you saw in the show, a mass power grab that even unaided would have seen vast conquest against a divided League unless they united under a dynamic leader. Then there is the utter destruction that would make the Shadows rejoice and the Vorlons groan as races that would be useful against the Shadows are bled white and the Minbari Warrior Caste lose a huge percentage of needed warriors. This would spiral so out of the Vorlons control that they either interfere or become laughingstocks to the Shadows.Now we come to Delenn, once Kosh and Kosh show Dukhat's message, this buys her time if the Prometheus heads towards deep space for 3 months which is the Maxium it can go before reaching the point of no return. Since Prometheus did not lead them to an EAS Base, Delenn like at the Battle of the Line suggests to the Warrior Caste that they take a Prisoner. Enter the Triluminary. The Minbari return the few they spare and Jankowski to EAS Territory. Jankowski is stripped of his rank and if lucky gets dishonorably discharged, death of memory if not.

Okay,

#1: The League united against the Vorlons and Shadows partly because Sheridan proved that the Shadows weren't infallible and partly because both groups were out to wipe out everyone anyways. The Minbari are only gunning for Earth, and the bulk of the League is going 'Whew, glad it's not us!'. They have everything to lose and very little to gain by joining against the Minbari.

#2: How do you propose to show the Minbari that Jankowski went rogue? Before everything went to hell, the Earth group hailed the Minbari several times, almost certainly including messages about who they were and what they were doing. They may not have known English initially, but they picked it up quickly.

#3: Applying the Cole Protocol to this whole war is not a reasonable possibility anyway. It worked with the Covenant only because there was nobody else in contact with either side of the battle. There are too many parties in B5 for that to work. Ever hear the saying, "If two people know a secret, it's no longer a secret."?

[Nephilim]

They united before that to fight at the battle of Sector 83. If the Minbari start threatening the League of Non-Aligned worlds, they are going end up in war with them. Among the League is the Vree-Ventuki Conglomerate with the same technology as the Minbari, thought the Ventuki are only one guild with economic ties and do not represent all Vree. Still the outpour will be immense and overwhelming. Not even the Minbari would be able to survive.

The thing is, the Minbari did threaten the League to stay out of the war with Earth of face destruction (Source: B5Wars Fluff). And the League backed away as it saw what the Minbari were doing to the Earth, who had in turn saved all of them from the Dilgar. If the power that turned the tide in the Dilgar War was losing, how the HELL do you expect the League to magically turn the tide of such a war?

As said before, not even the Centauri threatened the Minbari at their height and the Centauri were capable of holding their own against the League on 12 fronts and were even making leeway into League controlled worlds (mostly Drazi, Pak'ma'ra, and Brakiri) despite being at war with almost the entire League simultaneously. Still think that the League would be able to magically turn the War against the Minbari?

Fact is, the Minbari are the strongest military power in Babylon 5 among the younger races. It would take an alliance consisting of most of the younger races to actually threaten the Minbari and their fleet. So please... stop talking out of your ass.

Then taking that to its logical conclusion why did the League fight when Shadows and Vorlons decided to annilihate them? Also the League was currently at war with one another as well by Shadow political manuevering, and excaberated by the fact that the Centauri had more ships than the League combined. Politics are the ultimate deciding force in war, a dynamic speech, careful propaganda, the fact Jankowski exceeded his orders and went rougue, and the fact he went into deep space makes Earth seem like an innocence victim being held responsible for rougues. If this is how the Minbari act, it would threaten the League's ability to trade and makes animosity a dangerous threat if another race uses another race's ships to attack a Minbari ship and lead the Minbari to destroy another race. Thats not talking out of my ass, that is sheer pyschology. The Minbari would make themselves appear like the Dilgar. Plus if it ever got out the Warrior Caste was hiding Death Walker... Its not the battles won, but Politics. A united stance would send a powerful message. Now the Minbari might not care but as numbers begin to tell despite an average 5 Alliance Capital Ships lost for every Minbari Capital Ship and 12 Fighters for every Minbari fighter. Add in the League and 40,000 Capital Ships, plus more being built, of Earth, eventually the loss would become attritional in which Earth would have the material edge despite inferior technology, a situation much like the start of World War two for us, though the Minbari would maintain the technological edge. This doesn't include Ground Combat where the war was dragged out on. Eventually a Minbari ship would get captured and some tech recovered. If Emperor Turhan dies through assasination and Refa's faction gains power, the Minbari would have the political will to start fighting and the end result is what you saw in the show, a mass power grab that even unaided would have seen vast conquest against a divided League unless they united under a dynamic leader. Then there is the utter destruction that would make the Shadows rejoice and the Vorlons groan as races that would be useful against the Shadows are bled white and the Minbari Warrior Caste lose a huge percentage of needed warriors. This would spiral so out of the Vorlons control that they either interfere or become laughingstocks to the Shadows.Now we come to Delenn, once Kosh and Kosh show Dukhat's message, this buys her time if the Prometheus heads towards deep space for 3 months which is the Maxium it can go before reaching the point of no return. Since Prometheus did not lead them to an EAS Base, Delenn like at the Battle of the Line suggests to the Warrior Caste that they take a Prisoner. Enter the Triluminary. The Minbari return the few they spare and Jankowski to EAS Territory. Jankowski is stripped of his rank and if lucky gets dishonorably discharged, death of memory if not.

Ever heard of paragraphs? Makes everything so much easier to read...

Let's start out with this. The little scenario that you're cooking up is so ridiculously unlikely that... well, it won't happen.

FACTS:
-Minbari are the most technologically advanced of the younger races.
-In EVERY engagement seen, the Minbari outnumbered EA forces, and on top of that held a technological edge. It was a SLAUGHTER.
-The Centauri, even at their height (i.e. stronger than they are now, and could match the entire League in modern times) did not dare threaten the Minbari.
-The League combined was not able to stop the Centauri even after the Centauri Republic had gone to war with a power that was on an equal basis as the EA, the Narn Regime.

This all goes to point out that the League as a whole is not very strong, except its most powerful members like the Drazi, Vree, and Pak'ma'Ra, who are at least capable of holding on to some of their holdings during a Centauri invasion. Your point about the Minbari being outnumbered by the entire fighting force also doesn't fly due to the fact that the EA, who would of course bear the brunt of the war was outnumbered by Minbari forces in almost every single engagement with Sharlins - ships which are each superior to ANYTHING the EA or the League, or the Centauri can throw at them.

Now, you bring the psychological point up. Let me counter with this. Why would the League risk their own skins in actually engaging a force that is superior to anything that they can throw at it in every single way? Out of loyalty to the EA? Wouldn't happen, as it did cross their minds, but the Minbari sent a very stern rebuke and told them they'd face destruction if they got involved in the war. ALL of the League powers stayed on the sidelines for this reason, and now you're telling me that they would actually get involved when it is proven that they would not?

The Centauri would not get involved either. It would be suicide for them to do so. Do remember that the Narn are also around at this time and were forcing the Centauri to retreat from their worlds. If the Centauri were to engage the Minbari in battle, the Narn would definately take the chance and gang up on the Centauri and help in destroying them.

Why are you concocting this scenario anyways? It doesn't make sense. From the beginning that Jankowski fired, the fate of Earth was sealed. There WAS no return from the holy war that the Minbari declared upon the Earth Alliance. The ONLY chance that they had to stop the war was stopped by Londo, and it just continued to its logical end. The League, and the Centauri getting involved would just make it into a massive war, in which no matter what way you see it, the Minbari with their numerical and technological superiority would win.

[Melkor]

Is B5Tech actually cannon or is it just fanwank as I've always assumed.

[Straha]

Then there is this." By the earth year 1695 the Centauri had become known as The Lion of the Galaxy, reaching its political, economical and imperial peak. By this time the Centauri Republic consisted of 127 solar systems, a total of 309 colony worlds, effectively controlling one quarter of the entire galaxy. So vast and powerful was the Centauri Republic, even the vaunted Minbari Federation would dare not cross them. Though still technologically superior, the Minbari could not hope to marshal the power needed to combat the Centauri military machine and its near limitless resources." http://www.b5tech.com/centauri/centauri ... story.html
Then, political problems brought them low till their Emperor Turhan died, with his death the Centauri flexed its muscles fully and conquered vast tracks. If the Minbari start bullying the Centauri with Gunboat Diplomacy, Refa and his group will probaly remove Turhan and fight back. This also raises other issues that are for another post.

Yes, but the Centauri knew the Minbari could still dish out the hurt, it wouldn't matter if the Minbari lost in the long-run because they'd bring the Centauri down with them. Continuing down this train of thought we can point out that the League is FAR smaller than ~400 systems, and that they have absolutley zilch to gain from fighting a war defending an ally who can only manage to destroy ONE Minbari star cruiser. It would almost be like (I'm waving aside the very obvious emnity between these two countries to make a point) Iran declaring war on America when we invaded Iraq.

ANyway, addressing the OP the Minbari already knew where Earth was at the begining of the war, and they could have gone right there if they wanted to, but they didn't. Why? Because the Minbari didn't care about Earth, they cared about slaughtering every single human they could find untill they were all a clump of carbon atoms. Issuing a "Cole Protocal" would have only prolonged the inevitable, and then sent the Minbari, now slightly madder, back on theit way towards a Genocide that would far surpass any other in galactic history..

[fgalkin]

Is B5Tech actually cannon or is it just fanwank as I've always assumed.

Fanwank

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Typhonis 1]

Aklso what you are forgetting is something mentioned over at Spacebattles by EdBarccea....the Minbari haave been gearing up to fight the Shadows for a thousand years. They have stockpiles of ships just waiting to be activated.

Like he also said...the Earth Minbari war was a live fire exercise for the warrior caste. They could bloody their warriors in a relatively safe way for the upcoming shadow war. Much like the Soviets were trying to do in Afghanistan back in 1979....it was to be a live fire exercise for a proposed invsion of Western Europe in 1985 but the Afghanis were problematic.

[rommel17]

The thing is, the Minbari did threaten the League to stay out of the war with Earth of face destruction (Source: B5Wars Fluff). And the League backed away as it saw what the Minbari were doing to the Earth, who had in turn saved all of them from the Dilgar. If the power that turned the tide in the Dilgar War was losing, how the HELL do you expect the League to magically turn the tide of such a war?

As said before, not even the Centauri threatened the Minbari at their height and the Centauri were capable of holding their own against the League on 12 fronts and were even making leeway into League controlled worlds (mostly Drazi, Pak'ma'ra, and Brakiri) despite being at war with almost the entire League simultaneously. Still think that the League would be able to magically turn the War against the Minbari?

Fact is, the Minbari are the strongest military power in Babylon 5 among the younger races. It would take an alliance consisting of most of the younger races to actually threaten the Minbari and their fleet. So please... stop talking out of your ass.

Then taking that to its logical conclusion why did the League fight when Shadows and Vorlons decided to annilihate them? Also the League was currently at war with one another as well by Shadow political manuevering, and excaberated by the fact that the Centauri had more ships than the League combined. Politics are the ultimate deciding force in war, a dynamic speech, careful propaganda, the fact Jankowski exceeded his orders and went rougue, and the fact he went into deep space makes Earth seem like an innocence victim being held responsible for rougues. If this is how the Minbari act, it would threaten the League's ability to trade and makes animosity a dangerous threat if another race uses another race's ships to attack a Minbari ship and lead the Minbari to destroy another race. Thats not talking out of my ass, that is sheer pyschology. The Minbari would make themselves appear like the Dilgar. Plus if it ever got out the Warrior Caste was hiding Death Walker... Its not the battles won, but Politics. A united stance would send a powerful message. Now the Minbari might not care but as numbers begin to tell despite an average 5 Alliance Capital Ships lost for every Minbari Capital Ship and 12 Fighters for every Minbari fighter. Add in the League and 40,000 Capital Ships, plus more being built, of Earth, eventually the loss would become attritional in which Earth would have the material edge despite inferior technology, a situation much like the start of World War two for us, though the Minbari would maintain the technological edge. This doesn't include Ground Combat where the war was dragged out on. Eventually a Minbari ship would get captured and some tech recovered. If Emperor Turhan dies through assasination and Refa's faction gains power, the Minbari would have the political will to start fighting and the end result is what you saw in the show, a mass power grab that even unaided would have seen vast conquest against a divided League unless they united under a dynamic leader. Then there is the utter destruction that would make the Shadows rejoice and the Vorlons groan as races that would be useful against the Shadows are bled white and the Minbari Warrior Caste lose a huge percentage of needed warriors. This would spiral so out of the Vorlons control that they either interfere or become laughingstocks to the Shadows.Now we come to Delenn, once Kosh and Kosh show Dukhat's message, this buys her time if the Prometheus heads towards deep space for 3 months which is the Maxium it can go before reaching the point of no return. Since Prometheus did not lead them to an EAS Base, Delenn like at the Battle of the Line suggests to the Warrior Caste that they take a Prisoner. Enter the Triluminary. The Minbari return the few they spare and Jankowski to EAS Territory. Jankowski is stripped of his rank and if lucky gets dishonorably discharged, death of memory if not.

Ever heard of paragraphs? Makes everything so much easier to read...

Let's start out with this. The little scenario that you're cooking up is so ridiculously unlikely that... well, it won't happen.

FACTS:
-Minbari are the most technologically advanced of the younger races.
-In EVERY engagement seen, the Minbari outnumbered EA forces, and on top of that held a technological edge. It was a SLAUGHTER.
-The Centauri, even at their height (i.e. stronger than they are now, and could match the entire League in modern times) did not dare threaten the Minbari.
-The League combined was not able to stop the Centauri even after the Centauri Republic had gone to war with a power that was on an equal basis as the EA, the Narn Regime.

This all goes to point out that the League as a whole is not very strong, except its most powerful members like the Drazi, Vree, and Pak'ma'Ra, who are at least capable of holding on to some of their holdings during a Centauri invasion. Your point about the Minbari being outnumbered by the entire fighting force also doesn't fly due to the fact that the EA, who would of course bear the brunt of the war was outnumbered by Minbari forces in almost every single engagement with Sharlins - ships which are each superior to ANYTHING the EA or the League, or the Centauri can throw at them.

Now, you bring the psychological point up. Let me counter with this. Why would the League risk their own skins in actually engaging a force that is superior to anything that they can throw at it in every single way? Out of loyalty to the EA? Wouldn't happen, as it did cross their minds, but the Minbari sent a very stern rebuke and told them they'd face destruction if they got involved in the war. ALL of the League powers stayed on the sidelines for this reason, and now you're telling me that they would actually get involved when it is proven that they would not?

The Centauri would not get involved either. It would be suicide for them to do so. Do remember that the Narn are also around at this time and were forcing the Centauri to retreat from their worlds. If the Centauri were to engage the Minbari in battle, the Narn would definately take the chance and gang up on the Centauri and help in destroying them.

Why are you concocting this scenario anyways? It doesn't make sense. From the beginning that Jankowski fired, the fate of Earth was sealed. There WAS no return from the holy war that the Minbari declared upon the Earth Alliance. The ONLY chance that they had to stop the war was stopped by Londo, and it just continued to its logical end. The League, and the Centauri getting involved would just make it into a massive war, in which no matter what way you see it, the Minbari with their numerical and technological superiority would win.

Then why did it take three years to endrun. By your own admission, they could started by burning off the atmosphere of each EA world and saved themselves the trouble, but they didn't. They would also have to strike other races to eliminate humanity.

Also once again the Centauri have a powerful Naval force if they had the political will to use it.

The Minbari did not feild a large force till the Battle of the Line and then it was only 2,000- 3,000 ships. As a matter of fact Lenonn was raising this fact to the Grey Council before the war. The Warrior Caste mocked him about it, saying that the Workers would have to stop building civilian items to build Warships. Now if Minbai forces lost only four ships, then why build up forces and send 2,000-3,000 ships when a smaller 200 ship force would suffice? The answer is they were losing a lot of ships as the Humans outnumbered them in every fight, though they lost 5 vessels for every Minbari ship and 12-1 in fighters. Then the warriors' preference for straight out slugging matches instead of manuever ensured those losses.

Now, political. Delenn orders were to follow the Prometheus back to its base. This scenario it doesn't return to its base, it goes deep space for three months during that time Delenn would have had a chance to calm down as happened in ITB and Lenonn would have arranged for Kosh and Kosh to show Dukhat's message. Since the Warriors had not had a full taste of battle and thus not suborn the war, Delenn has the chance to stop it by having the crew captured and interrogated. This would prevent the war.

All you people ever consider is brute strengh and high technology. Not once do I see actual political ramifications. My whole hope in my controversial wrangling was one of you would recognise political forces. I see that will not happen. Well in that case I will go elsewhere beyond the rim to Star War and begin discussion on the ARC-170 and X-wing

[SAMAS]

Actually, the war might not have happened. IIRC, Dukhat was about to tell the Minbari command "Don't come at an alien ship with your guns out, you idiot!" So if the EA ship ran, he's have time to warn them off from doing that, and if they chose to follow, they could try to establish that they were peaceful before coming within firing range.

[drachefly]

SAMAS, read the OP. They fired, Dukhat is toast.

Rommel, when you say they lose ships, do you mean fighters? Fighters are not ships!
Sheridan was explicitly stated as the only commander to destroy a Minbari capital ship. They did lose fighters, yes, but that's totally different.