Starwars vs. Dune

[lumikant]

That's nice, but I doubt such abilities continue to exist in the original book's time period. Otherwise, wouldn't the Bene Gesserit have been participating in the battles in the book? If Jessica was such a "psionic sorceress," would she have been captured and dumped in the desert with her son? If Gaius Helen Mohiam were so capable, wouldn't she have killed Alia on the spot, or at least attempted it?

In House Atredies/House Harkonen they show these powers. Those two books are set ~30 years before Dune iteself.

And I will ask again, because you've shown nothing so far, give examples of some quantity of energy a shield asorbing and how much energy a weapon is producing.

And no "16 hour bombardment!"...which is useless given rate of fire, what type of weapons and a number of other factors come into play that can increase or decrease anyone calculations.

I'll take a look through the books and see if I can find anything that will be descriptive enough to get some numbers

[Lancer]

when quoting somebody, you need to put "" around somebody's name like so:

Code: Select all

[quote="CDiehl"] 
That's nice, but I doubt such abilities continue to exist in the original book's time period. Otherwise, wouldn't the Bene Gesserit have been participating in the battles in the book? If Jessica was such a "psionic sorceress," would she have been captured and dumped in the desert with her son? If Gaius Helen Mohiam were so capable, wouldn't she have killed Alia on the spot, or at least attempted it? [/quote] 

[lumikant]

Thanks Matt. And for Ghost Rider, from the Dune Encyclopedia

Energy "absorbed" by a planar field when it is struck by a fast-moving object is instantaneously re-radiated, in wavelengths throughout the electromagnetic spectrum which complement those which the field admits. Commercial Defensive Shields are normally manufactured to admit all wavelengths from the very short-wave radio through gamma rays, and emit longer-wave radio.

[Zorak]

The No-Ships of post- God Emperor age did in fact have weapons if I recall, in either Chapterhouse or Heretics they mention how the No-Ships are basically COVERED with turrents and guns, bristling with them.

I think most ships of the Empire are very sensor dependant. No-Ships are completely invisible to such sensors, and even psychic penetration.

It'd come down to the battlefield I'd think, not to mention who is leading which group. Chances are if it were Palpatine versus the God Emperor or Paul, I think it'd end up having alot of back stabbings on each side and weapons switching factions and the like... I personally think such a scene where each faction is filled with such political intrigue with so called allies and member factions always questionable towards what their purpose and who they'd side with... it'd be impossible to really analyze I think without going into like fan-fic layer of details.

[lumikant]

The No-Ships of post- God Emperor age did in fact have weapons if I recall, in either Chapterhouse or Heretics they mention how the No-Ships are basically COVERED with turrents and guns, bristling with them.

I think most ships of the Empire are very sensor dependant. No-Ships are completely invisible to such sensors, and even psychic penetration.

In House Atredies the Harkonens had the first No-Ship. The book also showed a couple scenes of space combat.

[Zorak]

I don't consider any of the Prequel books ever when I discuss the series. They just... gah.

[lumikant]

I don't consider any of the Prequel books ever when I discuss the series. They just... gah.

They're still canon, regardless of personal views on the books. I didn't like JarJar Binks, but i don't ignore him when it comes to starwars canon

[Dark Hellion]

Lumikant, the Prequals should not be considered cannon as the fact that the Battle of Corrin of the prequals directly contradicts what Frank Herbert wrote about it in the Appendix of the original Dune. The Holtzman effects are explained in the encyclopedia, and they have nothing to do with the shit KJA put out about it.
As for the shields stoping blaster bolts, it would seem that the shield should attempt to repel it, the problem is that either the bolt could be powerful enough to overload it (it is possible, however we don't know how much is needed to overload a shield) and we don't know if shields allow for violations of CoM or not (there is some evidence such as the fact that artillery is not excepted to hurt shielded troopers just track them in caves, but this is speculatory at best).
Dune never reaches the level of firepower of SW, not even by CH:D. But they could have an overwhelming numeric advantage if they bring all their ships together. But this is again speculatory.
Dune was meant to be commentary on religion, messianic figures and politics, not a war based sci-fi, and its capabilites show it as such.

[lumikant]

...snip...
Dune never reaches the level of firepower of SW, not even by CH:D. But they could have an overwhelming numeric advantage if they bring all their ships together. But this is again speculatory.
Dune was meant to be commentary on religion, messianic figures and politics, not a war based sci-fi, and its capabilites show it as such.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any emotional investment in this debate, I just hadn't seen anything about it before, and thought it might be interesting. Even without the prequels, the shields still seem very powerful, and I provided the quote from the Dune Encyclopedia as well. I do agree however, that some of their weapons are seriously lacking.

The one place I believe they excell however is in planetary destruction capability. The atomics they spoke about were used to destroy the surface of planets. I'm not sure if thats contradicted in any other novels, but in the prequels, they say that a single atomic warhead could destroy a planet. I think this is supported in so far as everyone is leery of any action that would cause a family to use their atomics.

Also, if holtzman engine travel is possible without a navigator, as was shown in the Butlerian Jihad, a Holtzman engine with an atomic attached would quickly become a war ending weapon. Unfortunatly, I don't know if that was contradicted in any of Frank's works.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually there lies the problem with Dune is just that. They imply, but never show. Saying a single atomic can destroy a planet but is never shown can be construed as hyperbole, and in fact without some actual description that is shown from an objective base, we have no idea what it does.

Literally finding objective evidence in Dune is harder to find then consistent evidence in comics

[lumikant]

Actually there lies the problem with Dune is just that. They imply, but never show. Saying a single atomic can destroy a planet but is never shown can be construed as hyperbole, and in fact without some actual description that is shown from an objective base, we have no idea what it does.

Literally finding objective evidence in Dune is harder to find then consistent evidence in comics

When the nobles flee from IX, the Prince (I believe thats his rank, and his name escapes me at the moment) takes his atomics and goes renegade. He's on Dune with them, and is setting up one of the warheads and it says that it can be adjusted to destroy a small area or the entire surface of a planet. I know that's from the prequels, but, its supported by other circumstances/cannon.

I do agree that it is hard to find concrete evidence, espcially considering the appearant distaste for the prequels.

[Zorak]

Its kind of funny, we know how weak atomics can be but not how strong they can be. They were weak enough with the Ground burners that if you were jsut a little away from the epicenter, it'd just blind you instead of killing you.

[Trytostaydead]

Also all the complexity is hardly needed.

Just to further clarify why. The shield only works on small solid objects, and that's up in the air. Larger weapons such as high as artillery and down to rockets were shown of great effectiveness against the shield. There is possibility of small munitions penetrating the shield that cared nothing for speed. These all show that there is a power threshold. Only the lasgun and shield reaction is the odd part about this thing.

In fact the best defense against most of them, is the shield is something that is used in Hand to Hand combat more then anything else in the Dune universe, which is why only Dune fanwankers scream the shield stops everything.

Literally it's not even close to any sort of true all purpose device.

Sorry, I don't remember where it was said rockets and artillery were effective against shields? In the original Dune, artillery pieces were used to seal the Duke's men in caves, not directly at them. Also, as for rockets being used against the smugglers, shields are not used routinely used on Arrakis, especially in the desert, and espeically not in the deep desert.

[Trytostaydead]

Its kind of funny, we know how weak atomics can be but not how strong they can be. They were weak enough with the Ground burners that if you were jsut a little away from the epicenter, it'd just blind you instead of killing you.

Therein lies the problem with Herbert, a lot of his battles happen "off-stage" so to speak. We get the idea that atomics are feared greatly, but we don't know really why except that the art of kanly and such are in force to protect the civilians and innocents as much as possible.

Lasguns likewise are feared weapons and not commonly spread among the populace as one has the potential for great devastation.

Though the question is, is the Dune universe actually all in one universe? Chapterhouse Dune alluded that the folding of space actually might be worlds in another universe.. though that might just be post-scattering data.

[Zorak]

Well we'll know soon enough... Brian Herbert is compiling Frank's notes for the sequal to Chapterhouse.

[Ghost Rider]

Also all the complexity is hardly needed.

Just to further clarify why. The shield only works on small solid objects, and that's up in the air. Larger weapons such as high as artillery and down to rockets were shown of great effectiveness against the shield. There is possibility of small munitions penetrating the shield that cared nothing for speed. These all show that there is a power threshold. Only the lasgun and shield reaction is the odd part about this thing.

In fact the best defense against most of them, is the shield is something that is used in Hand to Hand combat more then anything else in the Dune universe, which is why only Dune fanwankers scream the shield stops everything.

Literally it's not even close to any sort of true all purpose device.

Sorry, I don't remember where it was said rockets and artillery were effective against shields? In the original Dune, artillery pieces were used to seal the Duke's men in caves, not directly at them. Also, as for rockets being used against the smugglers, shields are not used routinely used on Arrakis, especially in the desert, and espeically not in the deep desert.

Rabban specifically asks for them to use in hunting the Fremen and the Baron denies them and says specifically since they are not shielded, it's uneeded to have them anyway.

As for rockets, given they were using them against the Sardukar in the Battle for Arrakeen, and as well as using them against the Emperor's fortress.

[Trytostaydead]

Rabban specifically asks for them to use in hunting the Fremen and the Baron denies them and says specifically since they are not shielded, it's uneeded to have them anyway.

As for rockets, given they were using them against the Sardukar in the Battle for Arrakeen, and as well as using them against the Emperor's fortress.

From what I recall the Baron just wanted to melt them down <shrug> I was under the impression the Baron was using the artillery to seal the men in caves since he said it was so predictable that the Duke's men would run into the caves thus not having to fight them, because didn't he say something about how funny it was bringing back artillery in the age of shields? But it could also be artillery could kill men using personal shields by sheer concussion?

If I remember, a massive storm took out the shields around the emperor's fortress.. or something like that, the shields were not up.

[Trytostaydead]

Well we'll know soon enough... Brian Herbert is compiling Frank's notes for the sequal to Chapterhouse.

As long as it's not KJA. You know, his writing style isn't that bad actually, very easy to read.. but he like to have his own vision like Uwe Bowell or Paul Anderson, and I just want to cry.

[Zorak]

Alot of people seem to not like Kevin J. Anderson. Personally I didn't mind the Jedi Academy Trilogy, but I dispise the Dune prequels.

Chances are KJA might be helping him but who knows.

[Ghost Rider]

Rabban specifically asks for them to use in hunting the Fremen and the Baron denies them and says specifically since they are not shielded, it's uneeded to have them anyway.

As for rockets, given they were using them against the Sardukar in the Battle for Arrakeen, and as well as using them against the Emperor's fortress.

From what I recall the Baron just wanted to melt them down <shrug> I was under the impression the Baron was using the artillery to seal the men in caves since he said it was so predictable that the Duke's men would run into the caves thus not having to fight them, because didn't he say something about how funny it was bringing back artillery in the age of shields? But it could also be artillery could kill men using personal shields by sheer concussion?

I presumed that part the the sheer blast is what kills them, since Herbert gives nothing more then such.

If I remember, a massive storm took out the shields around the emperor's fortress.. or something like that, the shields were not up.

The shields were only partially up, around the main ship and that the nose was shot.

The Outer shield fell, but they give no idea of what really did it, wit being the storm that they allowed to pass into or weapons fire. The storm primary reason was simply to mask the use of atomics, against the shield wall fixature.

[Zorak]

I have to agree with Trytostaydead, I do seem to recall that the main point about the artillery was the caves. Don't forget that melee weapons CAN be used on someone shielded, but you have to move the blade in a certain way and a shield slows attacks upon a person. *shrug* So I dunno.

The attack on the Emperor's ship was many pronged. Storm, ranged conventional, and Shai'hulud.

[Kenoshi]

Rabban specifically asks for them to use in hunting the Fremen and the Baron denies them and says specifically since they are not shielded, it's uneeded to have them anyway.

As for rockets, given they were using them against the Sardukar in the Battle for Arrakeen, and as well as using them against the Emperor's fortress.

From what I recall the Baron just wanted to melt them down <shrug> I was under the impression the Baron was using the artillery to seal the men in caves since he said it was so predictable that the Duke's men would run into the caves thus not having to fight them, because didn't he say something about how funny it was bringing back artillery in the age of shields? But it could also be artillery could kill men using personal shields by sheer concussion?

I presumed that part the the sheer blast is what kills them, since Herbert gives nothing more then such.

If I remember, a massive storm took out the shields around the emperor's fortress.. or something like that, the shields were not up.

The shields were only partially up, around the main ship and that the nose was shot.

The Outer shield fell, but they give no idea of what really did it, wit being the storm that they allowed to pass into or weapons fire. The storm primary reason was simply to mask the use of atomics, against the shield wall fixature.

From what I recall the artillery was used against the Atreides soldiers to trap them in the caves. Nothing was said about the artillery being able to kill someone who is shielded. Sheilds were not used in the open desert partly because static electricity generated by the wind against the sand could disrupt shields. Another reason is that an active shield generator drives sandworms crazy and they will converge on it.

The shield wall being breached by the atomics allowed a massive sand storm to sweep into Arrakeen, grounding any aircraft and negating energy shields through the static effect.

But as it's been said before, the Dune novels don't focus on military combat, they're about religion, political intrigue, and ecology. A more appropriate showdown would be between the schemers of both universes.

[lumikant]

The Dune Encyclopedia says

"His [Yware's] home world ' was a hollow planetoid circling Fallow Eight it had a population of approximately ten thousand and took only three hydrogen warheads before it split open"

That seems to show that the Atomics are fairly powerful.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The Dune Encyclopedia says

"His [Yware's] home world ' was a hollow planetoid circling Fallow Eight it had a population of approximately ten thousand and took only three hydrogen warheads before it split open"

That seems to show that the Atomics are fairly powerful.

I dont know...hollow planetoid?

I'm no geologist but that sounds both small in size (planetoids, i think, can be a few thousand miles wide) and fragile. It might not be very powerful at all.

[lumikant]

Even if its 1000 miles in diameter and hollow, the amount of force it would take to "split it open" would be huge. Especially for only 3 warheads.