Palpatine vs. the God Emperor of Mankind (WH40K)

[Anomie]

I thought Russ was the only one that was able to beat him in anything, I remember most of the primarchs reconizing who and what the Emperor was and swearing loyalty on the spot - Angron and Mortarion being the other 2 notable hold outs.

I thought only Lion El'Jonson and Sanguinius recoqnized the God Emperor for who he was upon first seeing him an took immediate knee, all other Primarchs either demanded some sort of contest (like Russ) or simply told him off (like Angron)

[loomer]

Then of course there was one Primarch he met only twice, I think. Alpharius, Horus's found one and most likely the second most corrupted Primarch.

[Lost Soal]

I thought Russ was the only one that was able to beat him in anything, I remember most of the primarchs reconizing who and what the Emperor was and swearing loyalty on the spot - Angron and Mortarion being the other 2 notable hold outs.

I thought only Lion El'Jonson and Sanguinius recoqnized the God Emperor for who he was upon first seeing him an took immediate knee, all other Primarchs either demanded some sort of contest (like Russ) or simply told him off (like Angron)

Almost all of them did. Dorn sought Him out, Konrad had been dreaming of him for years, Puterabo recognised him instantly and had a month long worship.
In the case of Russ, the Emperor was concealing his identity and needed to test his skill in order to be sure who he was, which is why he insulted Russ to provoke him into a contest which the Emperor knew he could win and so gain Russ' respect and loyalty.

As for the thread.
If Palp is lucky, the Emperor will simply kill him. If unlucky, he may mistake him for a Daemon and banish him into the Warp, where he learns what the true darkside is... for all eternity.

[White Haven]

Storm of the Emperor's Wrath > Force Storm.

That is all.

[Lancer]

Storm of the Emperor's Wrath > Force Storm.

That is all.

How many millenia has it been since the Age of Apostacy? Cause that's how long the Storm of the Emperor's Wraith has been around. And it's still going strong in realspace.

[Azazal]

Storm of the Emperor's Wrath > Force Storm.

That is all.

How many millenia has it been since the Age of Apostacy? Cause that's how long the Storm of the Emperor's Wraith has been around. And it's still going strong in realspace.

The age of Apostacy started early in the 36th Millennium.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Who the hell voted for Palpatine?
hell a 85% stomping vote would be probably for Palpy vs a greater Demon or trained alpha plus in CC, not the Emperor himself .

The age of Apostacy started early in the 36th Millennium.

So just over 5,000 years without any intervention or concentration, unlike Palp's that require constant concentration to maintain and control.

Btw OmegaG, while there may be a slight SW slant on this board it does not reach the point where most people would think that Wankatine would have a chance against a Primarch, although if this was a honest mistake then never mind .

[18-Till-I-Die]

Death:

I dont know...some of the more poweful Sith could use machines (and crystals, power points, etc) to focus their energy, do stuff like blow out star systems and such if memory serves.

Some might be able to, with Sith equipment, hold their own for a while against Primarchs and maybe even the Emperor. Though i dont know if they could win.

But i'm a bit biased here, i was a Warsie before i was a 40K fan.

I voted the Emperor though.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Death:

I dont know...some of the more poweful Sith could use machines (and crystals, power points, etc) to focus their energy, do stuff like blow out star systems and such if memory serves.

One of the most powerful Sith lords of all time, Marka Ragnos using Sith knowledge, a sith crystal and a sith battlecruiser was able to supernova a group of suns. (Creating the Maw).
Many years later, Exar Kun's acolytes using the same "equipment" supernova'd a sun, (Thus forcing the jedi to flee from Ossus)- I'd say that the ship was a massive enhancer, the ancient sith lords were powerful but compared to what a chaos primarch can do with light equipment...
(Magnus of the thousand sons made all of the Thousand sons SM's immune to further chaos mutations inside the warp)

Another problem with the "holding them off" is that compared to what an alpha plus psyker can do, even Exar kun was not that ludicrous (Freezing the senate (While having the sith amulet although he may not have used it for this), making a stick resist a lightsaber (Exar Kun's master), etc'.

Prep equipment is useful but saying that one side can use it to gain a chance is like saying that Dr.Doom could drain the emperor like he did the Beyonder, he might have a chance at doing it if given a long time to prepare without any resistance or interference-
It might happen, but it's not a standard scenario. - Sith equipment might give a personal "power boost", but it seems to be best at non combat operations, such as the aforementioned battleship that allowed it's wielder to supernova a sun.

[WyrdNyrd]

Sorry, noob question, but...

If the Emperor is so powerful, why does he need to order his soldiers to perform an Exterminatus? Why not just conjure up another storm?

Hell, why does He need soldiers at all? Why can't he just wish away threats like the Ork, Tau, and Tyranids, and force a truce with Chaos Gods and the Necrons/C'Tan?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Sorry, noob question, but...

If the Emperor is so powerful, why does he need to order his soldiers to perform an Exterminatus? Why not just conjure up another storm?

Hell, why does He need soldiers at all? Why can't he just wish away threats like the Ork, Tau, and Tyranids, and force a truce with Chaos Gods and the Necrons/C'Tan?

If i make any huge mistakes please corrcet me, but this is what it seems to be from reading the fluff, unless i missunderstand...

The Emperor is still one guy, he isnt all knowing he cant see and be everywhere so he needs people. More than that he's sort of bound to humanity's faith. He's the 'god of mankind' as it were, he needs us for energy and we need him for protection, i believe this was said in some of the fluff. "Without mankind the Emperor is nothing, and without the Emperor mankind is doomed."

And hes's not all powerful. The Orks, Chaos and Tyranids all are immensely powerful psychic races and some (Chaos, 'nid Hive Mind) are on his level easily. He can keep them at bay with constant concentration but he cant just 'wish' them away anymore than they can 'iwsh' him away. The C'tan are also uber powerful, and have ways to screw with the Warp. They also have legions of Necrons to help them, and each C'tan is immensely strong in their own right, and vastly older even than the Emperor, older than life on Earth even if memory serves.

[Nephilim]

Sorry, noob question, but...

If the Emperor is so powerful, why does he need to order his soldiers to perform an Exterminatus? Why not just conjure up another storm?

Hell, why does He need soldiers at all? Why can't he just wish away threats like the Ork, Tau, and Tyranids, and force a truce with Chaos Gods and the Necrons/C'Tan?

Because its taking all of his might to just keep the four Chaos Gods at bay with his own power. With the normal armies of the Imperium along with the Space Marines his own power is increased without him actually doing anything.

Oh, and the fact that he's crippled within the Golden Throne. He's but a rotting corpse only holding on to life by sheer force of will and its taking all of his concentration to keep the Astronomican up and running, plus whatever he's doing to fight the Chaos Gods in the warp to keep them at bay, plus whatever other things he does AND keep himself from dying.

Let's just say he's a busy busy man.

[WyrdNyrd]

Oh, OK. I didn't know that the Orks and the 'nids had psychic powers - I thought they just had overwhelmingly vast numbers.

I guess then that part of the ethos of W40K is the various god-like powers are at a kind of perpetual stalemate, requiring that the mortals war it out to tip the balance.

[Elheru Aran]

Oh, OK. I didn't know that the Orks and the 'nids had psychic powers - I thought they just had overwhelmingly vast numbers.

I guess then that part of the ethos of W40K is the various god-like powers are at a kind of perpetual stalemate, requiring that the mortals war it out to tip the balance.

More or less. Why do you think the tagline is 'In the far future, there is only WAR!'?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Orks depend largely on their powers actually, most Ork 'technology' is just a jungle of wires and gears with no real use, they 'power' it with psychic energy. They think "Red ones go faster" so they paint their vehicles red and, lo and behold, they do go faster just cause they really, really want it to. When they get in a group, a WRAAAGH, this is magnified a great deal.

Tyranids have the Hive Mind, the combined psychic gestalt consciousness they all share. Individually they're just instinctual, but together they have a combined intelligence. Certain monsters called 'nodes' focus this, and together with larger 'nids form a network of psychic control that allows them to function. The hive Mind exists in the Warp as a god, of sorts, like the Emperor or a Chaos God but different as it comes from another galaxy.

[NecronLord]

force a truce with Chaos Gods

That's not possible. The Chaos Gods do not have free will, but are in fact, creations of the anger, lust, hate (Malal) and so on of mortals. As such, they can do that, no more than you can will yourself into a rock.

[Lost Soal]

Orks depend largely on their powers actually, most Ork 'technology' is just a jungle of wires and gears with no real use, they 'power' it with psychic energy. They think "Red ones go faster" so they paint their vehicles red and, lo and behold, they do go faster just cause they really, really want it to. When they get in a group, a WRAAAGH, this is magnified a great deal.

They aren't THAT dependant on psychic powers. There base knowledge is from the Brain Boyz engineering it into there genetic structure and while a few weapons require a kind of psychic boost to work, they can still build actual engines and equipment. And the competing theory for "Red One's" is that the meks subcontiously make their vehicles with a different fuel mix or gear ratio which results in a faster vehicle.

[Falkenhayn]

The Sensei are sterile. And augmenting physical prowess with psychic energy are a fairly common set of abilities. Of course, that doesn't mean you can match a warp crafted, gene engineered superman in a packing away the calories contest.

And mostly dead if memory serves, vis a vis the Inquisition.

[white_rabbit]

(Magnus of the thousand sons made all of the Thousand sons SM's immune to further chaos mutations inside the warp

Ahriman did that, thats why its called "The Rubric of Ahriman"



Magnus was actually pretty pissed off with the Sorcerers, as the Rubric did sorta turn most of the Legion to dust.

[Lord Zentei]

He wouldnt need to be modified i dont think. He may not even have been completely human, he was conceived by the combined energies of millions of Earth's sorcerers committing suicide in unison God only knows what kind of physical development that implies.

He is fertile with ordinary humans. That's a hard upper a limit to how weird his body can be.

That upper limit could be pretty far up: for instance, Chihuahuas are technically fertile with Rottweilers.

[Ford Prefect]

Magnus was actually pretty pissed off with the Sorcerers, as the Rubric did sorta turn most of the Legion to dust.

He was going to kill Ahriman, though Tzeentch made him stay his hand, fom memory of the Adeptus Astartes article on the Thousand Sons.

[Lancer]

The transmuting spell which rendered the Thousand Sons a legion of closed armoured automata was the construct of the Legion's greatest sorcerer after Magnus himself: its Chief Librarian, Ahriman.

Before the events of the Heresy, Ahriman had shared his Primarch's obsession with arcane mysteries, and had come to be keeper of the now mythical 'Book of Magnus', a tome of incalculable sorcerous power.

It may have been knowledge gleaned from that very tome with which Ahriman conjured his now infamous master spell. The result of his Rubric, while imperfect, is said to have satisfied Ahriman in its consequence. A veteran Thousand Son from before the coming of Magnus, Ahriman's revulsion at the corruption of the Legion was so great that even the terrible price of reversing it was not too high.

Magnus was not of like mind, however. So great was his wrath when the cabal was discovered that the Primarch threatened to obliterate them utterly, but the very patron who had worked the mutations upon them in the first place was said to have intervened. Who can say what the most enigmatic and capricious of entities intended? In any event, the Daemon Prince stayed his hand, instead banishing Ahriman from the Planet of Sorcerers and condemning him to wander the Eye of Terror and beyond in a hopeless quest to understand the Chaos god Tzeentch. For his part, Ahriman refuses to acknowledge Chaos as his master. Across the ensuing millennia he has become a scourge, raiding ancient museums, librarium, scholaria and reclusia, places of learning, religion and contemplative thought. He seeks to acquire artefacts, data, or even persons he believes can lead him to mastery over the way of the sorcerer. He fosters cults on dozens of worlds at a time, providing cult magi with sorcerous power until such time as they have acquired some antiquarian trinket or satisfied another of Ahriman demands before turning the wrath of his warband upon them. It is rumoured that Ahriman has of late turned his relentless predation upon the Eldar, determined in his belief that the lost knowledge he seeks can be found in that darkest of halls of enlightenment, the vast repository of arcana referred to in whispers as the Black Library.

[Lord Zentei]

While I don't disagree with the conclusion, some of the arguments presented here are not logically sufficient.

Palpatine is so fast that a jedi (Leia) can barely see him fighting Luke.
Space marines are almost (But not really) a blur to humans, Custodes make SM look like normal humans by comparison, Primarch's make them look like babies, and the Emperor makes them look pathetic by comparison.

if X<Y and A<B<C<D, it does not follow that Y<D, even if X~A.

Palpatine can kill Jedi council members quickly and easily.
A weakened, half dead weak primarch (Sanguinius) can break a large Bloodthirster over his knee, and Horus killed a terminator space marine in mid battle with the Emperor by looking at him.

As above.

Though in these cases I'm fairly sure that Y<D is in fact very much the case, more data is needed to unequivocally draw that conclusion.

[The Grim Squeaker]

While I don't disagree with the conclusion, some of the arguments presented here are not logically sufficient.

True, but we would have the same problem comparing Aslan to Saruamn, Aslan would win but getting something quantifiable about him is nigh impossible.

if X<Y and A<B<C<D, it does not follow that Y<D, even if X~A.

True, but when A<<<<B<<<<<<C<<<<<<<<<<<D, and there are no exceptional circumsatnces or abilities to migitate this (Such as a normal human with equipment defeating a vampire, or a force user being nearly helpless around a Yslamiri), and we can see the rough placement of either x or Y than we can hazard a guess since the difference is so substantial.

As above.

Though in these cases I'm fairly sure that Y<D is in fact very much the case, more data is needed to unequivocally draw that conclusion.

True, maybe we should compare Palpatine to a Bloodthirster? (Also a stomp, but there is a lot more information about Bloodthirsters [outside of the warp]).
Sorry for making such vague statements, but when dealing with such a curbstomp I'm afraid that I let my behaviour slip due to carelessness, my apologies and thank you for pointing this out to me.

[Lord Zentei]

While I don't disagree with the conclusion, some of the arguments presented here are not logically sufficient.

True, but we would have the same problem comparing Aslan to Saruamn, Aslan would win but getting something quantifiable about him is nigh impossible.

Couldn't say about Aslan, given that I haven't read the Narnia Chronicles, though one can presumably infer lower limits at least indirectly. There is a good number of anecdotes about the accomplishments of the various heroes and villains of the Imperium, though.

if X<Y and A<B<C<D, it does not follow that Y<D, even if X~A.

True, but when A<<<<B<<<<<<C<<<<<<<<<<<D, and there are no exceptional circumsatnces or abilities to migitate this (Such as a normal human with equipment defeating a vampire, or a force user being nearly helpless around a Yslamiri), and we can see the rough placement of either x or Y than we can hazard a guess since the difference is so substantial.

Still not sufficient for a logical argument. A little difference goes a long long way in a fight, as you may find out if you take up a martial art. If you imply that the number of "<" symbols means something, you are implying you have at least a rough quantification (normally one '<' means less than, while '<<' implies order(s) of magnitude less than. '<<<' and up don't mean anything in particular that I'm aware).

As above.

Though in these cases I'm fairly sure that Y<D is in fact very much the case, more data is needed to unequivocally draw that conclusion.

True, maybe we should compare Palpatine to a Bloodthirster? (Also a stomp, but there is a lot more information about Bloodthirsters [outside of the warp]).

Well, don't be so sure that Wankatine couldn't take out at least a lesser Bloodthirster. Those critters can be blasted with anti tank weapons and Wankatine's force storms can take out battlefleets - and those are Wars ships with neutronium laced armour.

Sorry for making such vague statements, but when dealing with such a curbstomp I'm afraid that I let my behaviour slip due to carelessness, my apologies and thank you for pointing this out to me.

Don't sweat it on my account.