Dune vs Federation

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-12-18 10:19pm

Ok, lets say the usual warp/omnipotent being/etc happens, and the Dune universe (Era of Shaddam IV before the events in Dune) and the Federation declare war on each other. Who wins?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-18 10:20pm

Isn't the Dune universe more than 10000 years in the future?

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-12-18 10:22pm

Isn't the Dune universe more than 10000 years in the future?

Yeah, and Star Wars is set in the distant past, and SW vs ST are still debated, so does it matter?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-18 10:24pm

i have the sneaky suspicion that the Duneverse would win. I'm not sure how powerful their ships are, tho. But they do, if im not mistaken, have a speed advantage. That alone would be very useful.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-12-18 10:35pm

Lets see, some basic info about the Imperiums military:

Sardaukar: really good fighters, lots of em.
Heighliners: HUGE transport ships capable of almost instantaneous travel.
The new Dune books also establish that warships do exist.
Personal Shields: can deflect fast moving objects.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-18 10:35pm

Just gauging how slaughtered the Feds would get.

But doesn't Dune have some funny issues about computers or AI?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-18 10:37pm

Depends on how far apart their worlds are, and I don't believe this was ever established in the books.

If Arrakis is within striking range of Federation starships, the Feds take this without breaking a sweat. The entire Dune civilization is completely dependent on these ridiculous drug-addled navigators and their spice. Destroy the spice, and you destroy the civilization of Dune. Single point of failure; not wise.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-12-18 10:38pm

But doesn't Dune have some funny issues about computers or AI?

Yes, they do. They have an extreme paranoia about computer AI. They've replaced computers with Mentats and Navigators.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-12-18 10:53pm

I imagine that almost every organization in Dune would wage Jihad on the Feddies, with how the Feds use advanced computers and such. I imagine Bene Gesserit strike teams would be incredibly deadly to Fed facilities.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-18 11:11pm

If Arrakis is within striking range of the Federation, then I agree: the Feddies will take them easy. Destroy the spice and the Dune Imperium becomes planetbound. If not, then the Dune speed advantage allows them to take the initiative and run a campaign like the Star Wars Imperials would.

On the ground, the Feddies would be toast.

The only thing that would work in the Feds favour would be the Dune troops adhering to their Fuedal rules (ie. no Nukes, warfare conducted according to Great Convention etc.) while the Feddies would be free to lie cheat use weapons of mass destruction etc.

Spacecraft capabilities are not well known for Dune. It is possible that SF would have the advantage in space combat, although the Dune troops could be deployed and the Guild Highliners would leave their first target before the first Federation Ship even changed course to intercept.

So in space, let's call it a draw...

The Dune troops would be extremely motivated once they saw Federation computers (especially an abomination like Data!) to purge, cleanse, wipe out everyone who was contaminated. It's even possible they would break out the nukes and all the other dirty little weapons hinted at against SF if they felt threatened enough by Federation use of AI's.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-19 12:39am

I'm assuming this is pre-Muadib. In a prolonged war, the reliance on Spice will spell the end for the Dune-verse. However, the Emperor and Houses do stockpile Spice, so if their combined might and speed advantage can effect a relatively fast victory, they may very well take it. As far as warships are concerned, I thought they were mainly air support/planetary bombardment. IIRC, their means of interstellar travel do not involve traversing actual space, but folding space. The only time ships would encounter each other would be in orbit. Hrm. What the hell was my point?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-19 12:40am

Darth Wong wrote:If Arrakis is within striking range of Federation starships, the Feds take this without breaking a sweat. The entire Dune civilization is completely dependent on these ridiculous drug-addled navigators and their spice. Destroy the spice, and you destroy the civilization of Dune. Single point of failure; not wise.

Noot wise indeed. But necessary do to the nature of Dune FTL. They supposedly came close to making a synthetic spice, so it's possible that they could do it eventually.

And if they can hit Arrakis it's unlikely that they would be able to hit any other important world. The Empire is too dispersed.

But given the power Dune Universe weapons the Feddies will get a curb stomping if they ever start a full blown war.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-19 01:12am

Stormbringer wrote:And if they can hit Arrakis it's unlikely that they would be able to hit any other important world. The Empire is too dispersed.

How do we know the distances between inhabited star systems in the Duniverse?

But given the power Dune Universe weapons the Feddies will get a curb stomping if they ever start a full blown war.

Was Duniverse starship weaponry ever described in action in the books?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-19 01:41am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:And if they can hit Arrakis it's unlikely that they would be able to hit any other important world. The Empire is too dispersed.
How do we know the distances between inhabited star systems in the Duniverse?

It's described as encompassing most of the galaxy, if parts are poorly explored. Given the pathetic speeds of

Darth Wong wrote:
But given the power Dune Universe weapons the Feddies will get a curb stomping if they ever start a full blown war.
Was Duniverse starship weaponry ever described in action in the books?

Not explicitly. But there are a number of rough indicators and I haven't read the old books in a long time. There are suggestions that frigates and larger can conduct a near BDZ operation in small groups (3-6).

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-19 07:12am

Well how would a lasgun effect feddie shields? that would be a huge factor.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2002-12-19 07:30am

It was never said where the Dune planets are. And the only ones who know are the navigators. They could be spread over the whole galaxy.

And they would use nukes, et al. against the Federation, once they found out the use computers. That would mean Jihad for Dune. And bad times for the federation, if all Great and Minor Houses ganged up against the Feddies.

Added to it, the Feddies don't know that Dune relies on Spice, and if they found out, they still don't know where Arrakis is. And they won't find that one out easily.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-19 07:49am

The biggest advantage which I don't think was mentioned yet was Dune prescience. Their navigators avoid disasters when travelling by seeing into the future...

Pre Muad'dib, the Guild navigators (who were passive in most conflicts) would take an active role to crush the Federation, seeing into the future to report on future troop movements, future defense formations etc. and then relay that info to their commanders.

Post-first novel, Muad'dib or his son (with near-PERFECT prescience) would subjugate the Federation in quick order. (Crack Fedaykin commandos would descend on Risa to kill Picard and the Enterprise crew while they are on a sex holiday, before Starfleet even knew there was a problem!...No E-E riding to the rescue!)

Muad'dib probably wouldn't be able to hold his legions back even if the Federation totally surrendered as his Fedaykin would scream "Jihad" and purge Starfleet and the UFP for the abomination of using computers.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-19 09:50am

I think the problem is well the only indication of weaponry of Dune is from the the first book(later books I suppose when the BG are BDZing Arrakis into desert) that Shaddam basically boast that he'll BDZ Arrakis with a gesture, and Paul didn't exactly go nu-uh!.

Also it's the Universe(Ruler of the known Universe...somehow I think Herbert meant this in some regard), not Galaxy...which brings another aspect, the greatest horror for Shaddam is that without the navigator support his Empire would be nothing but small little worlds squabbling.

And the ground war has been covered...sorry Klingons vs Sardukar is going to be a slaughter...and many dumb fools will be going to Stovakor.

As for their inclination of not using Atomics...that all depends given that's arule they gave to themselves...and ultimatly I believe they would break that rule if they thought the Federation posed enough threat.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-19 10:10am

Ghost Rider wrote:Also it's the Universe(Ruler of the known Universe...somehow I think Herbert meant this in some regard), not Galaxy...which brings another aspect, the greatest horror for Shaddam is that without the navigator support his Empire would be nothing but small little worlds squabbling.

If you notice too, communications between worlds is based on emissaries taking Guild Liners as passengers because the planets are so far away from each other...

Ghost Rider wrote:As for their inclination of not using Atomics...that all depends given that's arule they gave to themselves...and ultimatly I believe they would break that rule if they thought the Federation posed enough threat.

And the generic term "Atomics" seems to cover a lot of ground in the Dune Universe...In the second book an atomic "stone burner" goes off and Paul is left to wonder how big the devastation will be: whatever the effect (some are described in limited fashion), it was only limited by the amount of fuel present. Paul thinks that if it had enough fuel it would burn through to the core of the planet! And this one went off by accident...

Earth is toast.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-19 10:13am

Yeah comm sucks...but also the most psychotic part is that the Stone burner wasn't actually disallowed under the Great Convention

Which makes you wonder what level of weapon is?

So yeah Earth is a dustball.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-19 11:19am

Ghost Rider wrote:Yeah comm sucks...but also the most psychotic part is that the Stone burner wasn't actually disallowed under the Great Convention

Which makes you wonder what level of weapon is?

So yeah Earth is a dustball.

I thought the Stone Burner was banned. That's why Korba the Zealot had to answer for his villainy in smuggling the burner to Arrakis...

Oh wait a sec: the weapons themselves aren't banned. That's why all the Houses had them: it's the USE AGAINST HUMANS that's banned. Hmmmm!

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2002-12-20 03:43pm

Darth Wong wrote:Depends on how far apart their worlds are, and I don't believe this was ever established in the books.

If Arrakis is within striking range of Federation starships, the Feds take this without breaking a sweat. The entire Dune civilization is completely dependent on these ridiculous drug-addled navigators and their spice. Destroy the spice, and you destroy the civilization of Dune. Single point of failure; not wise.

They did sort of break their AI rule after the Honored Matres BDZed Arrakis. Of course this is irrelevant, since this takes place before that.