B5: Kosh vs. Ironheart

[Vympel]

That one actually isn't too far from the in-universe truth. No other war cruiser went down as easily as that. As has been pointed out, if all it took was getting two 2 megaton nukes in range it could have been done again.

Perhaps no other cruiser went down as easily because the weapons of their enemies are weaker than 2 megaton nukes? I haven't seen much B5 though.

[Darth Wong]

OK, let's put this another way. Rather than trying to prove that it's possible to generate excuses for them, why not answer this question:

What evidence is there that extremely powerful weapons are necessary to kill a Vorlon?

We've seen Vorlons downed three times: by poison (in the pilot), by energy discharges not even powerful enough to blind Morden or cause him physical injury while inside the same room (when Kosh #1 died), and by electrical arcing (when Kosh #2 died).

So far, I'm not seeing much evidence for these ultra-tough Vorlons, gentlemen. And the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's required, not on me to conclusively disprove each excuse.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps no other cruiser went down as easily because the weapons of their enemies are weaker than 2 megaton nukes? I haven't seen much B5 though.

The alternative is to go Rabid Fiver and assume that Sheridan thought these 2MT nukes would destroy a Sharlin even though they were hopelessly inadequate, on the off-chance that they would lower the imaginary energy dissipation (read: shield) system that the Fivers desperately want them to have.

[Crown]

Just to play a little of devil's advocate (at my own risk) the battle, as described in the Technomage books, was like a psychic pull and tug. Basically the Shadows ripped apart Kosh's enegy so that they could reach his 'core' and destroy him. Perhaps this is supported by Lyta's comments when she screams; they (the Shadows) ripped him apart!

So rather than using energy to fry Kosh, they used energy to rip him to shreds.

I might point out that I use the term 'energy' to mean both it's known properties and forms (like the electric arc used to destroy Ulkesh), and as term for a psyshic phenomenon, or telepathic one. One would indeed unleash the destruction in the room that Mike wants as proof. However would the other do the same?

[Enlightenment]

Perfect accuracy, maybe. Perfect energy transfer, on the other hand, is just silly. And what happens to this energy? Disappears into a black hole in Kosh's body, never to reappear again? Conservation of Energy goes out the window?

It's already known that CoE is more of a suggestion than a law in the B5 universe. Kosh could have simply stuffed the execess energy down his pants or off into hyperspace or wherever else the FuckOffs' ships dump energy from megaton-class weapon hits.


Note that I'm not attempting to demonstrate that Vorlons are uber-resistant but merely that, given the nature of B5 canon, the scene in question isn't necessarily a good yardstick for determining Vorlon damage resistance. IMO the entire series falls into the category of 'too stupid for rational analysis.'

[Vympel]

IMO the entire series falls into the category of 'too stupid for rational analysis.'

LOL!

I like Babylon 5!

[Darth Wong]

Note that I'm not attempting to demonstrate that Vorlons are uber-resistant but merely that, given the nature of B5 canon, the scene in question isn't necessarily a good yardstick for determining Vorlon damage resistance. IMO the entire series falls into the category of 'too stupid for rational analysis.'

You can say that if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that no one has produced any evidence whatsoever that remarkable energies are required in order to kill a Vorlon.

[Connor MacLeod]

So far, I'm not seeing much evidence for these ultra-tough Vorlons, gentlemen. And the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's required, not on me to conclusively disprove each excuse.

Even if we're ignoring the other two examples, doesn't this third one more or less prove it? I know alot of Fivers like to claim it took all of B5's power to stop the Vorlon, but I dont recall them running out of gravity or oxygen, for example... and if they're shunting the full power of B5 into stopping the Vorlon, wouldn't that energy be dumped into the enviroment as well?

(for that matter, What about "outside" the station with the death.. doesnt that put some interesting limits on things?)

[Enlightenment]

I know alot of Fivers like to claim it took all of B5's power to stop the Vorlon, but I dont recall them running out of gravity or oxygen, for example...

In a tin-can style colonies, gravity comes essentially for free as a result of the colony's rotation. Once the colony has been spun up, very little power will be necessary to keep it rotating. Oxygen production is a function of the farming/greenspace areas and requires 'only' power for lighting to keep the trees and plants alive. Turning off the power (i.e. the lights) to the 'life support system' would only cause problems if the lights were off long enough for the plants to wither or die.

Losing power for the HVAC fans and station cooling pumps would be critical but given the size of B5 rooms the ventilation system could be shut down for perhaps a few hours before people started to suffocate. Power to the cooling system would need to be maintained at all costs or the crew/colonists would bake and the station would melt.

and if they're shunting the full power of B5 into stopping the Vorlon, wouldn't that energy be dumped into the enviroment as well?

Yes. Even if Kosh was sinking ungodly amounts of energy into hyperspace (or wherever) the brightness of the arcs (specifically: not bright enough to blind anyone) impose an upper limit on how much power Stup...er...Sheridan was putting into the Vorlon arcwelder.

[Connor MacLeod]

You can say that if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that no one has produced any evidence whatsoever that remarkable energies are required in order to kill a Vorlon.

Probbly because most Fivers would consider it an "unquantifible incident attributable to magic" or something like that. Which woudl sound very much like how the LotR oriented debates do

[Enlightenment]

"unquantifible incident attributable to magic"

"Unquantifiable incident attributable to telepathy."

And the parallels with LoTR nuts are hardly surprising given what one will find after applying forensic techniques to the file marks around B5's serial numbers.

[Stormbringer]

You can say that if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that no one has produced any evidence whatsoever that remarkable energies are required in order to kill a Vorlon.

Probbly because most Fivers would consider it an "unquantifible incident attributable to magic" or something like that. Which woudl sound very much like how the LotR oriented debates do

Which means they conceded the debate. If you throw science and rrational analysis out the window you don't have science, you have religion. Rabid Fiver are as bad as trekkies, they have to throw out every canon incident, or at least the reasonable and rational interpertation of it, to win.

At this point though there is no real debate to be had. B5 is weak and that all there is to it.

[Vympel]

Hang about- their are actually LOTR debates? About what?

[Stormbringer]

And the parallels with LoTR nuts are hardly surprising given what one will find after applying forensic techniques to the file marks around B5's serial numbers.

And even less suprised since you seem to have applied the same file to your eyeballs. Sure B5 has paralells to LotR or any number of other great works but to call it a rip off of each and every one of them is insane. If every idiot like you was right in their ridicluous claims JMS would be a genius of unparalled skill to rip of damn near every peice of great literature ever written.

[Darth Wong]

Hang about- their are actually LOTR debates? About what?

Some people will actually claim that the US Army would get stomped by Sauron because he's invincible, Balrogs can't be harmed by normal weapons, the Ring is indestructible even though Gandalf said you only need something "hot enough", etc.

I once described the battery of tests I would perform on it as an engineer if I wanted to study it. It would eventually become a puddle, or at least a partial puddle.

That's probably more of a problem on other boards than this one, though

[Connor MacLeod]

Hang about- their are actually LOTR debates? About what?

Some people will actually claim that the US Army would get stomped by Sauron because he's invincible, Balrogs can't be harmed by normal weapons, the Ring is indestructible even though Gandalf said you only need something "hot enough", etc.

I once described the battery of tests I would perform on it as an engineer if I wanted to study it. It would eventually become a puddle, or at least a partial puddle.

That's probably more of a problem on other boards than this one, though

Yep.. people can make wild exaggerations and its harder to prove/disprove them for lack of knowledge (points to Hate mail page for examples)

Fivers do this quite a bit with the first ones (the "holding back" argument..) Adarx is infamous for doing this with the Triad as well

[Stormbringer]

At this point this thread isn't serving any real purpose. If you want to debunk the various bull shit claims of rabid fan fine but do it in a specific thread.

This one is closed.