Magog vs. the Empire

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-01-04 06:54pm

They are a miniture Gravitational Weapon!

So then an interdiction cruiser's hyperwells could likely flux with them.

We have never seen a PSP vs. Energy Defense Reaction.

They do not have the power of a full singularity, why, (Holes are collapsed in an object, the whole object doesn't implode, near messes, don't kriff with navigation, etc.)

Since we know that The shields on a SD to defect mass the question is what is the relative mass deflection. Or what is the mass of the PSP round. If it's lower then the shields of the SD are rated for it's Bug on Winshield time.

Considering how little damage they do to vessels in Andromeda, I doubt they are that surviveable, hell a Master of Orion verse version of that same weapon would do more relative damage.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-04 06:55pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: Shields and armor might not offer defense against black holes, but we know for a fact that ID can counteract the effects of a black hole, so its quite probable that a starships's inertial damping field, if extended, could negate the gravitaitonal effects of the PSP.

How deeply would this affect a PSP? From what you describe, it seems possible that the ID field, in nullifying the gravity of the PSP, would make it more lethal; if the IDF affects the singularity itself, it could nullify the gravity keeping the PSPs mass in a singularity state, and you could very well have a multi giga- or even teraton explosion as the now unbound mass/energy is released.

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2003-01-04 06:58pm

Mr Bean wrote:For your sake Valor I have to find it funny that kojikun seems to completly ignore 2/3 of the thread and make statments like that last one

Amusing but a trifle bit headache inducing…

Mr Bean wrote:Anyway this agian calls into question what exactly Evasive Manviors are in AD. Remeber the Nova attack run where they rush the Worldship? Remeber they ARE flying a strait line, Dialog or not, They are visably flying in a strait line before and after that run and the PSPs miss them.

I have to thank you; had to look at "The Widening Gyre" to confirm some things. Nice to see classic RHW rather than Season 3..

Well your order of events is slightly off. First there was just one attack run made of the MWS; it was at this point that the Andromeda launched the nova bomb. It was a straight bore attack at the MWS with no mentioned attempt to evade. During this period the MWS never seemed to fire any PSPs at the Andromeda; instead the swarmships were attempting to close in and attempt to pick off the missiles that were being launched. We never did see if any of them were successful but I expect they had little time to do much. The PSP cannons never fired during the attack run probably because it was dealing with too much incoming fire with several hundred missiles in a second. Instead it held back fire to avoid damaging any swarmships and interfering with their fire. Now they were fired just moments before the launch of the nova bomb but the Andromeda also broke off her run just moments after the launch of bomb hence why they missed.

The scene I'm referring to with the PSPs being fired at the Andromeda and being a near miss was well before the attack run. I would have to check the episode, but it was at least 10 to 20 minutes give or take before because Hunt told Rommie how long they had before the Andromeda started her attack run just after that scene. At this point the Andromeda was out of effective range for her missiles carrying the nova bombs and Beka thought beyond the effective range of the PSPs. At this point she was evading rather than heading for the MWS in a straight line. You also do see Beka first tell the crew to hold, then take evasive, and then the cut to the FX shot of the PSPs just missing the ship.

Mr Bean wrote:Also while the firing rate of the Large Cannons is nice, its CLEARLY in bursts, Not contiuies(Pow Pow Pow! They fire on us, Evade it! Shots of AD evading, THEN a few more seconds and they fire agian)

We actually only saw the large projector fire a burst of three rapidly. We never saw it stop and then fire another burst. So it at least can burst fire three PSBs. Now the Basilisk on the other hand fired a steady rate of PSPs in that manner for several seconds destroying drones and smart missiles.

Mr Bean wrote:The main problem anyway is we are conducting half the debate in vacume pure and simple,

There we agree. I tend to think that the majority of the technology of the Magog and their capability hasn't even been shown. Just indications that it exists; just like the MWS and where is the industrial capability to build something that makes the Death Star look rather insignificant. The Spirit of the Abyss from his methods seems to be interested in more than just stomping the Commonwealth into the ground then moving in.

Mr Bean wrote:Admit this Valor, Boarding actions by Magag on Storm-trooper equiped ships would all go terrible for the Magag

Again we agree. However there is a dilemma here too. High Guard shipboard and internal defenses aren't exactly a walk in the park when you factor in defense turrets, 800+ Lancers, AG fields, and attack nanobots. They have a defense for fully manned vessels that I'd say is on par Imperial vessels for Sci-fi well above say Star Trek or B5 but not exactly the Culture. The same for ground combat; a single pair of OE-bots would have been able to slaughter Magog on the ground simply by stepping on them unarmed droves of them. Yet the Magog took and held High Guard planets. That at least says they have some way to overcome both the internal defenses and armor on the ground. Except nothing is there to debate about in your half in vacuum debate because the how the hell they did it is unknown.

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2003-01-04 07:01pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Shields and armor might not offer defense against black holes, but we know for a fact that ID can counteract the effects of a black hole, so its quite probable that a starships's inertial damping field, if extended, could negate the gravitaitonal effects of the PSP.

The KE is still a mess to deal with. We have Trance's statement from "All too Human" that the Basilisk was firing objects at them with "planetary masses".

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-04 07:04pm

Renewed_Valour1 wrote: The KE is still a mess to deal with. We have Trance's statement from "All too Human" that the Basilisk was firing objects at them with "planetary masses".

How would a PSP transfer KE? It can't actually 'collide' with something due to it's gravity.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-04 07:15pm

Again we agree. However there is a dilemma here too. High Guard shipboard and internal defenses aren't exactly a walk in the park when you factor in defense turrets, 800+ Lancers, AG fields, and attack nanobots. They have a defense for fully manned vessels that I'd say is on par Imperial vessels for Sci-fi well above say Star Trek or B5 but not exactly the Culture. The same for ground combat; a single pair of OE-bots would have been able to slaughter Magog on the ground simply by stepping on them unarmed droves of them. Yet the Magog took and held High Guard planets. That at least says they have some way to overcome both the internal defenses and armor on the ground. Except nothing is there to debate about in your half in vacuum debate because the how the hell they did it is unknown.

Two things about this, 1 A planet is a whole diffrent kettle of fish to use my saying of the day

A Planet is MUCH more diffcult to protect than a ship, Escpilly since a Planet can't on will, flood whole sections with nerve agents nor vent sections to vacume, Also Planets don't come with nice built in strait Line corridors

However we CAN see the problem for the AD crew is that those OE-Bots are STEEPING on Magog instead of the much faster and cleaner method of hosing them down by the hundreds with those chain-guns of theres

So far demosrated boarding abilitys are ALWAYS unarmed rushs prehaps lead by the occsional armed leader

And frankly VS even World War II level tecnology could have held off any of the rushs so far demosrated(An MG-42 MG could let fly over 1k Bullets Per Mintue, and due to the size and speed of said bullets they normaly rip human limbs RIGHT OFF)
And where was said bots when they where attacking the worldship the first time anyway?

But agian as you can point out

VACUME

So I suggest we end this little debate here and put it down to lack of information and hopefuly Dillian will insutle the parontage of the Spirt of the Abbyss and he lets loose everything they have

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2003-01-04 07:34pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Or what is the mass of the PSP round. If it's lower then the shields of the SD are rated for it's Bug on Winshield time.

The point singularity has a Swarzschild radius of a few centimeters at most according to the Harper site and what the tech advisor has said. So it would have a mass of about the same as Earth at around 5.98 x 10^24 kg and be traveling at around 50 PSL. Or a bug with a lot of mass...

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-04 08:00pm

Idea. What say you take an OM missile weighing 1kg and run it at standard 95psl. They'd have 4.41e16J of energy.. thats alot. if it weighs 1000kg thats 4.41e19J. Thats pure newtonian, too, not factoring in relativistic effects.

Not that this would give anyone an advantage but its a thought.

Darth_Nader · Post by **Darth_Nader** » 2003-01-05 02:37am

one word Sun Crusher......

Darth_Nader · Post by **Darth_Nader** » 2003-01-05 02:39am

excuse me thats two words, but you get the point.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-05 02:40am

kojikun wrote:Idea. What say you take an OM missile weighing 1kg and run it at standard 95psl. They'd have 4.41e16J of energy.. thats alot. if it weighs 1000kg thats 4.41e19J. Thats pure newtonian, too, not factoring in relativistic effects.

Not that this would give anyone an advantage but its a thought.

Or a billionth of the energy of a TF Coreship's shields.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-01-05 03:20am

Renewed_Valour1 wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:Or what is the mass of the PSP round. If it's lower then the shields of the SD are rated for it's Bug on Winshield time.
The point singularity has a Swarzschild radius of a few centimeters at most according to the Harper site and what the tech advisor has said. So it would have a mass of about the same as Earth at around 5.98 x 10^24 kg and be traveling at around 50 PSL. Or a bug with a lot of mass...

And it's dodged, the vessel generating it is not Fluxed by whatever, the hit's Andromeda TOOK didn't completely obliterate the ship.

BZZZT

Wrong answer. reality check

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-01-05 03:38am

Ok, from the Episode with Jaeger:

It's a miniture Black hole

or basically, your using a gravitational field, to compress a slug into infinate density and fling it out very fast.

Problems:
1. Conservation of Energy: Recoil is going to be a bitch.
2. Not to mention gravitational shock as it drags the firing vessel
3. Basic relative mass. The round will want to expand to equalize with the outside pressure.

The damage modle suggests that the majority of the bore is the surrounding energy field that tries to contain the projectile. Because the mother ship only has the mass of say 20 earths it can't be able to discharge 1/20th it's mass and still not be effected.