B5 Shadows vs The Borg

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-03 05:12pm

Obviously they cannot completely adapt, because Federation weapons were hurting them.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-01-03 05:16pm

Excelsior wrote:The cube in First contact was being hammered by lots of starfleet ships (I would say, fifty).

300 actually, if you go by the subtitles.

The fact that a borg cube was able to survive being hit by lots of ships in the episode when Picard got turned into a borg shows that those ships in FIrst Contact were a lot more powerful than normal ships, or that they were using weapons the borg never adapted to.

Umm...DUH! They were in the middle of a war you retard.

They were firing weapons the borg had already seen and had MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to adapt to. You're just showing how fucking stupid the borg are.

If the borg can't adapt, then how come they werent' blown up in the other episode, until Data told them all to go to sleep?

Umm, because federation ships at that time were pathetically weak and the fleet was so small that they were wiped out in a matter of minutes?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-03 05:22pm

Excelsior wrote:The cube in First contact was being hammered by lots of starfleet ships (I would say, fifty). The fact that a borg cube was able to survive being hit by lots of ships in the episode when Picard got turned into a borg shows that those ships in FIrst Contact were a lot more powerful than normal ships, or that they were using weapons the borg never adapted to. If the borg can't adapt, then how come they werent' blown up in the other episode, until Data told them all to go to sleep?

You just insist on making a bigger and bigger fool of yourself don't you.

There obviously were improvements from STFC over Best of Both Worlds. But the cube was still NOT IMMUNE. Why is this so difficult for you to understand. You were trying to claim that the borg would be immune from shadow attacks after the first few hits because of adaptation. This claim of yours has been proven false again and again and again.

ADAPTATION IS NOT INFINITE. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THINK HEAD.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-03 06:26pm

The Borg ship in "Descent Part II" could not adapt to a stellar corona, and were easily destroyed by it.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-03 06:26pm

That should be "was easily destroyed by it."

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-01-03 07:24pm

Durandal wrote:Here are my redone "Night Terrors" calculations.

In "Night Terrors," it is stated that the entire payload of the Enterprise's photon torpedoes could not produce enough energy to break the Enterprise free of whatever dire situation it was in that episode.

The crew surmised that by charging up the warp core for 6 hours, they might be able to do it. This tells us that, at most, the entire payload of the Enterprise's torpedoes cannot be any more powerful than the combined energy generated by the warp core over the course of 6 hours.

Precisely. Sounds good so far.

On a similar note, in "BoBW," the deflector discharge meant
to destroy Locutus' cube was said to involve "more power
than our phasers and photon torpedoes would ever provide"
or words to that effect.

Using Mike Wong's figure of 3E16 W, that gives a total energy generation of 6.5E20 J.

Interesting.

Without knowing the specifics, I have to ask, did the warp core
"charge up" at maximum power for that duration? Q's comments
in "Q Who?" seemed to indicate (as well as "BoBW" blurbs)
that the warp core can't maintain anywhere near maximum
power very long; fuel exhaustion or overheating, at least,
were major concerns.

If it was simply the E-D's normal output, I'd look more toward
a terawatt-ranged figure. That is, LaForge said that the
E-D "normally kicks plasma up into the TW range." "Normally"
would probably correlate to cruising speed requirements, or
about warp six (?).

Let's say LaForge meant the E-D could generate only
one TW. That for six hours is 21,600 terajoules, equivalent
to about 5 megatons. Divided among 250 torpedoes--a
valid guess, btw, since that was the torp complement in
"Conundrum"--that's 20 kilotons per torpedo, upper-limit.
Those torpedoes would take a very long time to kill
the 100,000 TJ shields evident in "Relics" unless the
shields' burst capacity is very, very weak.

If LaForge meant the E-D could generate something
in the higher TW range (reasonable...1 TW is stretching
his words to the limit IMO), say 500 TW arbitrarily,
all 250 torpedoes would yield less than 10,800,000 TJ,
or about 10 megatons per torpedo.

Not to invoke the Golden Mean fallacy but for the
sake of brevity, I think the real value is somewhere
between these two values. Allow me to explain
a bit further...

Assume for a moment that the crews' fear of proximity
photon torpedo detonations isn't unfounded. We
hear of such concerns in "Q Who?" and "The Nth Degree."

I don't know about the latter example, but in "Q Who?,"
Michael figures the Borg cube was 5-10 km away from the
E-D. The E-D was unshielded at this point, hence the danger.

I don't know quite where to begin in figuring out how much
energy could "destroy the Enterprise" as stated in
both episodes, but let's start with a purely canon example
in "Survivors," a 400 GW pulse that caused thermal
damage to the hull.

To strike a target with a frontal area of some 60,000 sq.
meters with say 200 gigajoules at a range of 5 kilometers,
a photon torpedo would have to yield 250 kilotons.

This is actually a fair, if rough-shod, lower-limit. The 200
GJ pulse ONLY did thermal damage, after all; it didn't
destroy the E-D. It'd probably take over a kiloton
to totally destroy the unshielded E-D.

In any event, as is relevant to the topic at hand, we
know a Borg cube has more firepower than the E-D,
so we're definitely looking at more than 250 kiloton
shots from the cube.

That sets the stage for the conflict. I contend that
a Spider's firepower is no greater than a couple of
megatons/sec. A cube can take far more than it's
usually seen dishing out, so one-on-one, it wins. Very
easily.

Assuming there are 250 torpedoes on board, that gives us about 2.6E18 J per torpedo as an upper limit. That gives us an upper limit of about 600 megatons per torpedo. If we assume that there are 1000 torpedoes onboard, we come very close to the 64 megaton figure given in the TM. However, these are both upper limits. In other words, the torpedo yield cannot exceed them. Since I think it's stated somewhere that the Enterprise carries roughly 250 or 300 torpedoes, we can use 600 megatons as a ceiling.

In "Conundrum," it's definitively stated that the E-D carries
250 photon torpedoes. The script might indicate 275, but
the aired show says 250.

Since Mike has already done the work on the Pegasus asteroid and concluded that it would take about 500 kilotons per torpedo, we can see that this figure is well within the upper limit bound established above.

Agreed.

I think hundreds of kilotons torpedoes to, perhaps, a few megatons
are about right.

As that pertains to the Borg, space combat-wise, they'll be
able to kick some Shadow ass. The big unknowns regard
the Shadow missile cloud, tactics, and the like (things I've
already addressed but were evidently put in such a dull
manner that no one wanted to comment...boo-hoo!)

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-03 08:18pm

The Shadow PK didn't use it's missiles against the EA fleet in "A Call to Arms" until *after* the control center was destroyed and the SPK was self-destructing. Also the 'energy field-dampening' effect didn't really seem to bother the EA ships in ACtA as they were inside the cloud attacking the control center.

If I remember correctly in "Into the Fire" (it has been ages since I've the ep. so I might be mistaken) the SPK surrounded the YR fleet completely *before* the 'energy field-dampening effect' had any effect and *before* it started launching missiles.

BTW why would the Borg have to enter the SPK in order to destroy the control center? Couldn't they just attack it from the outside (flank the SPK, it didn't seem that fast, and approach from the rear)?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-03 08:29pm

Sir Sirius wrote:The Shadow PK didn't use it's missiles against the EA fleet in "A Call to Arms" until *after* the control center was destroyed and the SPK was self-destructing. Also the 'energy field-dampening' effect didn't really seem to bother the EA ships in ACtA as they were inside the cloud attacking the control center.

If I remember correctly in "Into the Fire" (it has been ages since I've the ep. so I might be mistaken) the SPK surrounded the YR fleet completely *before* the 'energy field-dampening effect' had any effect and *before* it started launching missiles.

Of course you realise that paragraph 2 destroys the point you were trying to make with paragraph 1. Ships obviously can be hit with the SPK missles

BTW why would the Borg have to enter the SPK in order to destroy the control center?

Given the size of the cloud (planet spanning), I doubt the Borg cube would be able to find the control center from outside the cloud.

Couldn't they just attack it from the outside (flank the SPK, it didn't seem that fast, and approach from the rear)?

How does a formless cloud even have a rear to attack from?

Maybe the borg could attack at night!

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-03 08:48pm

Of course you realise that paragraph 2 destroys the point you were trying to make with paragraph 1. Ships obviously can be hit with the SPK missles.

The point was that the SPK might not be able to use the 'energy field-dampening effect' until it has completely enclosed the target(s). And in ACtA it was malfunktioning as it begun firing missiles and destroyed it's self with them. It did NOT use the missiles to defend it self against the EA fleet.

Given the size of the cloud (planet spanning), I doubt the Borg cube would be able to find the control center from outside the cloud.

Why would finding the control center be any harder from the outside then it is on the inside?

How does a formless cloud even have a rear to attack from?

Have you seen "A Call to Arms"?
If you have; why are you calling the SPK a formless cloud?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-03 08:54pm

Is it a given that Borg weapons are stronger than the Excalibur's main gun? If so, then the Borg just need to scan for the SPK's command center and hit it with a few shots.

(Wasn't there something about Borg being able to target cloaked targets, indicating the strength of their sensor tech?)

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-04 12:39am

seanrobertson wrote:Without knowing the specifics, I have to ask, did the warp core "charge up" at maximum power for that duration?

From the episode:

DATA: Sir, Commander La Forge and I have come up with a potential solution to our predicament. Perhaps the modifications we used to increase firepower against the Borg might be effective here.
PICARD: Channeling power into the main deflector dish...
DATA: I believe within six hours we can generate a concentrated burst of energy which might disrupt the Tyken's Rift.

Furthermore, we need a time range. You can't divide Watts by a dimensionless number and magically get Joules. The timeframe is specified, so we can derive a yield. If Data hadn't mentioned the amount of time they'd have to charge, we couldn't derive anything from this.

Q's comments in "Q Who?" seemed to indicate (as well as "BoBW" blurbs) that the warp core can't maintain anywhere near maximum power very long; fuel exhaustion or overheating, at least,
were major concerns.

I guess, but I then the only real quip you could have is that I don't call the calculations "extremely high upper limits."

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-01-04 04:19am

I honestly think that the Borg would lose this one, simply because the Borg have shown, on many occasions, that they are complete idiots.

The Borg rarely seem to mind when people/things are transported on their ship, when they do they seem to take their sweet time in dealing with them. (I for one, have never seen a borg drone run to deal with something). All the Shadows would have to do is acquire transporter technology and adapt it to their ships (which shouldn't be too hard, considering they probably know all the laws of physics). After that all they have to do is transport those nice 500 megaton bombs seen in "Into the Fire" into the Borg Cubes. Hell if they had the ship building capacity, they could just kamaikaze their scout ships> They could just drop out of hyperspace right ontop of a cube then blow the nuke. I don't recall reading anything about a cube being able to survive a 500 MT nuke INSIDE of its shields.

Also in a straight up fight, no one has considered the 25-50 fighters each battle crap carries. In a straight up fight they would fly inside the shield permiter and blast at any exposed weapon and shield enbankments. (In many ways similiar to what the Delta Flyer did in an episode of Voyager.) If the weapons and shields are taken offline by the fighers, then a Shadow Vessel could easily carve up a Borg Cube.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-01-04 04:25am

Shadow Vessels also had no very little trouble hitting and destroying rapidly manuvering fighers and White Stars in B5. I'm thinking that either the Battlecraps, or their figher escorts, would have little trouble destroying on route torpedos aimed for the Battlecraps; espically since torpedos travel in a near linear path in ST.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-01-04 09:05am

Durandal wrote: I guess, but I then the only real quip you could have is that I don't call the calculations "extremely high upper limits."

Definitely. Don't get me wrong, Damien--it's good thinking. I
was just spitballing, really, speaking to something a bit removed
from what you said.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-01-04 09:24am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I honestly think that the Borg would lose this one, simply because the Borg have shown, on many occasions, that they are complete idiots.

They can be extremely thick-headed, probably due to their
arrogance (though you'd think their war with the Eights would've
given them some perspective).

However, it's hasty to simply suggest that they'd lose because they're
always going to make the most stupid decision possible.

The Borg rarely seem to mind when people/things are transported on their ship, when they do they seem to take their sweet time in dealing with them. (I for one, have never seen a borg drone run to deal with something). All the Shadows would have to do is acquire transporter technology and adapt it to their ships (which shouldn't be too hard, considering they probably know all the laws of physics).

They do?

More importantly:

Intergalactic "technology swapping" is usually disallowed
in these sorts of arguments. By the same token, we could
just give each Borg ship several very strong B5 telepaths, who
could jam any Shadow ship they might encounter. The logic
is similar, after all...the Borg could assimilate such people.
What they'd do with them, and their *access* to them in the
first place, is what's objectionable.

Also, transporters don't often function *through* shields.
It's likely that the Borg would lay much smackdown-eth
on a Spider before it could pull this trick--ASSUMING it
was feasible or fair to begin with, of course.

After that all they have to do is transport those nice 500 megaton bombs seen in "Into the Fire" into the Borg Cubes. Hell if they had the ship building capacity, they could just kamaikaze their scout ships> They could just drop out of hyperspace right ontop of a cube then blow the nuke. I don't recall reading anything about a cube being able to survive a 500 MT nuke INSIDE of its shields.

Oh, it wouldn't. If the shields were up and the bomb detonated
between them and the ship, that might ramp up the damage
done (as suggested by some of the TMs). Sheer overkill!

The feasibility of this tactic is the crux of the matter.

Also in a straight up fight, no one has considered the 25-50 fighters each battle crap carries. In a straight up fight they would fly inside the shield permiter and blast at any exposed weapon and shield enbankments. (In many ways similiar to what the Delta Flyer did in an episode of Voyager.)

I remember that one, but that particular cube was pretty messed up
("Collective"?). It might not be indicative of what'd work against
your fully-functional cube.

OTOH, Data and Worf *did* manage to penetrate Locutus'
cube's shield perimeter in "BoBW" with a shuttle...your idea
looks better and better. Nice thinking!

I still have some grievances with this, though. First, would
the Spitfires ever get into range? Second, do they have
the firepower to damage these exposed systems? As I
recall, White Star Prime managed to shrug off about
any reasonable amount of Spitfire weaponry.

If the weapons and shields are taken offline by the fighers, then a Shadow Vessel could easily carve up a Borg Cube.

Probably quite easily, though I'd expect those systems to
regenerate a'la "Q Who?" I'd also expect that this is not
something that could be pulled off very easily time and
again, as mentioned above.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-01-10 04:01am

You know, I just took a peek on B5 Shadows vs Galactic Empire thread, and I was amazed on the abundance of pro-Shadows arguments there compared to this thread (most of them are DoA's, tough

).

Here's several Shadows' 'advantages' I found on that thread:

Servitor races:

Dead on Arrival on B5 Shadows vs Galactic Empire thread wrote: Any victory the Empire believes it achieves will be an illusion, giving the Shadows time to regroup and plan. When you are immortal, what is the passing of a few decades/centuries when it comes to revenge? Of course, the Shadows will probably have to sacrifice the Drakh and other servitor races as the 'Shadows', but they can always make more...

Hidden bases in deep space:

Dead on Arrival on B5 Shadows vs Galactic Empire thread wrote: I don't see why, the Shadows have at least one base behind the equivalent of a SW cloaking device (no emissions in/out) located in deep space. Said base was designed to build Death Clouds assembly line style, though given its stated size (corel-like structure with the mass of a planet) I am sure the facilities for building other types of ships are available. The Empire can't track them while they are in Hyperspace, and it is questionable whether they could track them in real space either due to advanced stealth/ECM systems.

Shadow Plague:

Dead on Arrival on B5 Shadows vs Galactic Empire thread wrote: The Shadow Plague has an incubation period of roughly 5 years, during which time it is adapting itself to the host and spreading to non-infected humans, aliens, animals, etc. It manifests itself as any number of fatal diseases, viruses, etc to the host body. There is no ONE cure, you must neutralize the source...the resulting effect varies according to the infected body. In a galactic civilization, a few deaths from some disease on some backwater world will be easily overlooked. Scarily, a few million dead over millions of world is barely even worth mentioning. It is only when the Shadow Plague has fully adapted that a galactic panic would be noticed. However, what if the Shadow Plague finds a disease to which SW medical science cannot cure?

That said, the Shadows would not use this weapon first. However, in most Warsies eyes the first action the Empire will take is always hostile. Most assume that they will BDZ or even use the Death Star on Z'ha'dum, which would result in the Shadows resorting to such a tactic. Also, we can theorize that the incubation period of the Shadow Plague can be adjusted so that it doesn't take 5 years to find a fatal illness. Maybe.

If the Shadows did use such a weapon, unless the GE discovers it and somehow links it to them, they have a faceless enemy and no place to direct their retaliation.

Telepathic ability:

Dead on Arrival on B5 Shadows vs Galactic Empire thread wrote: The Drakh share a telepathic hive mind, what one sees they all see, regardless of the space in between. This suggests that the Shadows, who engineered the Drakh and other servitor races, understand telepathy on a very, large scale. Another example of this might be the Eye of Z'ha'dum, which was able to detect and nearly 'capture' Ivanova when she was exploring Sigma-957 through the Great Machine. With all of the above, the Shadows might be forewarned of an invasion and be able to react or shield themselves from being detected. Maybe.

All of the First Ones, including the Shadows, are highly telepathic entities and can deal with attempted mental scans in various ways. Scanning the mind of a Shadow was likened to falling into a Black Hole by Talia Winters, a P5 that was augmented by Ironheart before he 'ascended'. The Shadows have weapons designed to kill other telepaths, which vary in strength dependant upon the mind trapped and then destroyed. When scanned by a P5 one such device destroyed a reinforced testing chamber and the bulk of the adjoining room, as well as mind-shreding every P5 within several miles of the blast. Were a Sith or Jedi to be snared by such a device, I would expect the effect to be much more devastating.

Infinite lifespan:

fgalkin on B5 Shadows vs Galactic Empire thread wrote: Everyone here seems to overlook one advantage the Shadows have over the Empire. They have infinite lifespans that allow them to wait out before action for a much longer period of time. Here's how I think it will happen.

Now, these advantages are futile against Galactic Empire due to ***vast*** disparity in firepower, shield strength, and strategic speed (FTL speed). Besides, someone else's opinion cannot be used as evidence. Frankly, I just wonder: could these 'advantages' help the Shadows against the Borg? (I also wonder what kind of Trek-side rebuttals when these arguments are used against Trek... heh heh)

PS: Anyone wonder wherever I've been, I've been ill for about a week.

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B5 Shadows vs The Borg

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