How we know the Mackie test of Battletech is rigged

[fusion]

Disclaimer: I do not play the games or read the books only know it through the debates, please provide quotes if possible thanks.


Well it might not be exactly rigged but the shell fired by the Merkava was at least sub-prime. How?

Well the gauss cannon is a devastating cannon of the Battletech universe "destroying" light to medium mechs in a shot in the fluff and does 25 damage in the game. An impressive cannon. Well this cannon fires a shot that weights at the max 125 kilos and fires at a speed of mach 2- 3 depending where you look apparently.

mach 3 = 340.3 m/s X 3 = 1020.9 m/s

KE of the shell is: (1020 m/s)^2 X 125 Kg = 130 MJ

Now lets look at a modern tank weapon: An M829A1 120 mm KE pentrator. A modern KE penetrator. The sabot itself weighs 4.6 Kg and moves at a speed of 1575 m/s. Source: link Page 8

KE of this shell is: (1575 m/s)^2 X 4.6 Kg = 11.4 MJ


Now you may say that the KE of the penetrator is fraction of the gauss rifle. No matter. I am not proving that a tank round is more or less lethal than a gauss round yet... For now I am proving that the Merkava is less than prime.

First thing one must remember is that a gauss round is one of the most deadly rounds fielded by a mech. This penetrator round, not the best one is only 11.4 times (130 MJ/ 11.4 MJ) weaker than the gauss round or has a damage of 2 in game terms (25 damage/11.4= 2.1). Sure this is not a great number but it is a number much greater than zero meaning that there should have been damage.

Now that I have been able to prove that the round that the Merkava fired was below prime. I will now prove that KE penetrator fired by a modern tank is more lethal than what the energy comparison show.

A gauss round is made of nickel-ferrous (or something like that) which is more or less is equivalent of iron. This round is typically depicted as being spherical or cigar shaped and is cited to be a 200 mm round or larger. I will take the 200mm round because it presents the smallest surface area which will result in the highest penetration...

The equivalent frontal contact area is: (200 mm/2)^2 X 3.14 =31400 mm ^ 2


The energy per mm^2 is: 130,000,000 J / 31400 mm^2 = 4140 J/mm^2

Now lets see how the DU penetrator fare:

The equivalent frontal contact area is: (22mm/2)^2 X 3.14 = 379 mm^2

The energy per mm^2 is: 11,400,000 J / 379 mm^2 = 30100 J/mm^2


Since the ratio of energy to contact area of the DU round to gauss round is nearly a magnitude greater it would mean that it should do more damage than the energy comparison numbers would indicate. Also it would also mean that the round would pass from one side of the mech to the other due to its high ratio of energy to contact area.

So if it was a modern round the Merkava was firing, it should have gone in the front side and come back out the rear side still flying which would mean that done massive amounts of damage, the the very lease it should have given the mech a very bad limp.


Later I will post the round that the tank should have been using... ( I will give you a hint, its guided)

[Archon]

I thought only the Heavy Gauss did 25 damage. The regular Gauss does 15 doesn't it?

[fusion]

Ok I concede but the whole point is that there was enough energy in the rounds to do more damage than squat. Either way it still does damage due to its high energy to contact area ratio.


Ps you double posted...

[Batman]

It is generally better for your mental health to NOT try and make sense of BT.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

but a spherical round is also not a sound ballistic shape, it will lose a lot of energy to air friction, and with the relatively low density compared to tank penetrators and armor it may simply bounce of the armor or shatter on impact, even a cigar shaped round may tumble and bounce or shatter.

[Batman]

but a spherical round is also not a sound ballistic shape, it will lose a lot of energy to air friction, and with the relatively low density compared to tank penetrators and armor it may simply bounce of the armor or shatter on impact, even a cigar shaped round may tumble and bounce or shatter.

Hence why I posted what I did.

[fusion]

I was going to comment on how it might aerosolize on impact and stuff like that but...
Lets talk about a modern round that can kill a mech by killing its driver, enter M712 Copperhead. A round which has an accuracy that is measured in centimeters and has enough explosives to blow the entire cockpit up. linky

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Well, despite being mostly reasonable Giant Robots, there's still more than enough unobtanium keeping them dominant in universe.

[VF5SS]

Well, despite being mostly reasonable Giant Robots, there's still more than enough unobtanium keeping them dominant in universe.

They're probably some of the least reasonable giant robots. Seriously, at least most animes make their robots WTF PWNZOR fast and shit. Battlemechs are slow, awkward, and can damage themselves by falling.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, despite being mostly reasonable Giant Robots, there's still more than enough unobtanium keeping them dominant in universe.

They're probably some of the least reasonable giant robots. Seriously, at least most animes make their robots WTF PWNZOR fast and shit. Battlemechs are slow, awkward, and can damage themselves by falling.

To expand on this slightly, in Battletech, 'mechs are supposed to be the dominant weapon on the battlefield. However, there's really no reason for this, given that for the most part, 'mechs really have nothing going for them. They're tall, but generally don't really move that quickly (especially the heavier models). In comparison, you go have a look at Armoured Core, and the mechs there are jet-propelled nutcases flipping out like ninjas. While this is totally fucking ludicrous (fun though), it's certainly more impressive that just 'shucks, we've got legs, we're awesome'.

Ultimately, the only mecha universe that's actually reasonable is Heavy Gear.

[Ford Prefect]

EDIT: Although Heavy Gear as a universe happens to have land battleships, so reasonable sort of stops at a certain point. Regardless, Gears tend towards some form of agility and happen to be inferior to tanks.

[brianeyci]

I think Batman is right. Besides, as far as I know modern tank armor is classified and it's hard to figure out exact penetration and armor figures. Kinetic energy isn't all that makes a penetrator. You trying to apply for the HAB or something? No point beating a dead horse.

The last time this came up a year ago, someone brought up different models of Merkava with a 105 mm gun and I don't see why that explanation couldn't work. I don't particularly believe there has to be a vast conspiracy to uprate the power of mechs, and the test doesn't have to be rigged. It doesn't even have to be fake. Saddam's Republican Guard showed what happens if tanks aren't properly maintained.

If I write a story and say my hand can grab a tank and crush it, suspension of disbelief says that's what happens. Either you accept that's what happened or admit the universe can't be rationally analyzed with unbotanium crap all over the place and leave it out of versus like Spongebob Squarepants. I'd rather leave well enough alone than invent some huge anti-tank conspiracy which isn't canonical at all.

As far as I'm concerned the "modernization" of Battletech putting in a whole bunch of depleted uranium gauss rounds and buzzwords and technobabble was probably the worst thing BT could've done. And it was to satisfy the people like you fusion, which ended up backfiring and making them look like fools. If I were you I'd take my money elsewhere. I'm sure not paying for modern BT stuff.

[VF5SS]

Especially when Battletech went from the "sorta cute in its innate retarded machine gun induced explosions" to "WTF pwned by super ultra auto clan gauss ram trucks." Never mind the way 'Mech construction rules made it all the stock machines worthless because someone out there has already made the best machine for every weight class.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

I say reasonable precisely because they're so slow and ponderous.

Of course, it all started as a tabletop game, so eh. We know how those can get, especially if they start reconning fluff to the rules.

Though, it's kind of obvious they're supposed to be dominant through three factors: (Two of which are unobtainium related...) Their massive number (and calibre) of armaments, their armor plating, (forget the combination of words they used to describe it in the Mechwarrior games.) and shock and awe factor inspired by their arrival on a battlefield.

But yeah, in every last mech series ever, tanks are somehow made obsolete by the mechs. Despite the conflicts with tactical common sense. Sometimes, even if they're mounted with the same weapons as the mech, they'll fail, simply because of 'bigger is better' syndrome.

[Ford Prefect]

Though, it's kind of obvious they're supposed to be dominant through three factors:

Three factors that can equally be applied to tank design - so we're back at square one: 'mechs are better just because. It's not at all reasonable because the 'mechs aren't getting anything out of their legged design that makes them at all fearsome. Sure, they're tall and impressive, but impressive isn't everything.

Sometimes, even if they're mounted with the same weapons as the mech, they'll fail, simply because of 'bigger is better' syndrome.

Thus, the answer is to build bigger tanks.

[SAMAS]

I say reasonable precisely because they're so slow and ponderous.

It depends on where you're defining "reasonable". A BattleMech may be considered technologically more reasonable than, say, an Armored Core mecha, but the AC Mecha's performance on the field makes it's presence more reasonable than a BattleMech.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

I was going to comment on how it might aerosolize on impact and stuff like that but...
Lets talk about a modern round that can kill a mech by killing its driver, enter M712 Copperhead. A round which has an accuracy that is measured in centimeters and has enough explosives to blow the entire cockpit up. linky

The Copperhead round is actually an artillery round. and requires both a 155mm gun you won't find on a tank, and a laser designator that won't last long against a mech (The Laser designator needs to begin designation 20 seconds before impact, becoming the perfect target for an MRM)

aA better choice is a HESH round, since modern western tanks won't often miss a target as large as a battlemech, HESH rounds have plenty of punch to take out the cockpit on a lucky strike, but also delivers enough linear force that practically any hit to the torso will knock a mech head-over-heels

[Hotfoot]

A while ago, I posted a comparison of weapon analysis reports to show why the account of the Mackie trial was, at best, an unreliable and overly emotional report. The point of view of the observer is unnaturally emotional for a supposedly technical person. Meanwhile, a real-world example of an official debriefing of a much more impressive weapons system by a non-technical individual was far more informative as to capabilities and limitations.

In other words, the report of a US General watching a nuke go off was much more informative than the sensor technician that watched the Mackie trial. Anyone want to claim that a walking tank is somehow much more impressive than watching nuke go off?

Yeah.

The Mackie Trial was clearly some kind of propaganda, because it is not even internally consistent with the universe. That an ancient 'Mech's armor could withstand a MBT cannon without even so much as a scratch is, on the face of it, ludicrous. This is a universe where 20-30mm machine gun arrays can chew up 'Mech armor. The very nature of the Battletech Armor is that it is super-ablative. Maybe the tank shell would not have penetrated, but the idea that no damage was done to the armor from a high velocity shell, when LOW velocity shells can rip armor off? Bullshit, plain and simple.

That said, Batman's right. Trying to make sense of the massive amounts of bullshit in Battletech will just make your head explode. The fucking setting is so self-contradictory it's not even funny, and power levels change depending on who wrote the book and what (if any) science knowledge they had. This is the danger of letting people with little to no scientific background make a setting that's "super detailed and gritty".

[fusion]

I think Batman is right. Besides, as far as I know modern tank armor is classified and it's hard to figure out exact penetration and armor figures. Kinetic energy isn't all that makes a penetrator. You trying to apply for the HAB or something? No point beating a dead horse.

The last time this came up a year ago, someone brought up different models of Merkava with a 105 mm gun and I don't see why that explanation couldn't work. I don't particularly believe there has to be a vast conspiracy to uprate the power of mechs, and the test doesn't have to be rigged. It doesn't even have to be fake. Saddam's Republican Guard showed what happens if tanks aren't properly maintained.

If I write a story and say my hand can grab a tank and crush it, suspension of disbelief says that's what happens. Either you accept that's what happened or admit the universe can't be rationally analyzed with unbotanium crap all over the place and leave it out of versus like Spongebob Squarepants. I'd rather leave well enough alone than invent some huge anti-tank conspiracy which isn't canonical at all.

As far as I'm concerned the "modernization" of Battletech putting in a whole bunch of depleted uranium gauss rounds and buzzwords and technobabble was probably the worst thing BT could've done. And it was to satisfy the people like you fusion, which ended up backfiring and making them look like fools. If I were you I'd take my money elsewhere. I'm sure not paying for modern BT stuff.

No I am not going for HAB even though I should. I wanted this to be a more conclusive report for the reason why people thought the Mackie test was rigged. I have watched this enough from the side line to make me care about it. Every time its brought up multi page feuds ensued because the evidence brought up by both sides were very weak (ie the round only penetrates 333 mm of normal steel, what is normal steel?). So thats why

And probably I should try to join HAB, but....

[Gunhead]

I think what Hotfoot and others are getting at is this. The account of the test gives us nothing. There's next to nothing in it that translates neatly into hard numbers.
So the test itself may or may not be rigged, but since we have only this one accounting of the events, which is mostly worthless as evidence on the capabilities of mechs for or against, it's dubious to bring it up as evidence in debates involving BT.

Also, what we know of the test is more or less wildly inconsistent with other sources, and some of those sources are far more specific when it comes to weapons and such.

It wouldn't even matter much even if there was an established order of canonicity, as the info contained in the account is mostly useless or wildly subject to interpretation.

-Gunhead

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Thus, the answer is to build bigger tanks.

Indeed! Where are my Baneblade divisions?

I say reasonable precisely because they're so slow and ponderous.

It depends on where you're defining "reasonable". A BattleMech may be considered technologically more reasonable than, say, an Armored Core mecha, but the AC Mecha's performance on the field makes it's presence more reasonable than a BattleMech.

While I agree, AC has it's own major internal inconsistencies.
Chiefly the amazing performance difference between the various MTs and ACs. (And the fact that ACs are cheap enough for Mercenary factions to use, yet the cooperations that build them don't field any for their own defense. Aside from the most recent games where they kept a few pilots on their payroll... Even then, most encountered ACs were either rogue or contracted defenders.)

[Ford Prefect]

While I agree, AC has it's own major internal inconsistencies.
Chiefly the amazing performance difference between the various MTs and ACs. (And the fact that ACs are cheap enough for Mercenary factions to use, yet the cooperations that build them don't field any for their own defense. Aside from the most recent games where they kept a few pilots on their payroll... Even then, most encountered ACs were either rogue or contracted defenders.)

It might simply be a question of who is capable - although Armored Core 4 has the whole NEXT business going on, even in the earlier games one would have to wonder hoe nutty it would be to control an AC. Those things move around like they're on fire. Prospective pilots probably spend more time tripping over their own feet at three hundred kilometres an hour than actually doing anything useful. It's probably more efficient for a company to pay for lots of relatively easier to use MTs than fork out a heck of a lot of cash making an ace pilot.

Though before AC4 that's really pushing it.

In other words, the report of a US General watching a nuke go off was much more informative than the sensor technician that watched the Mackie trial. Anyone want to claim that a walking tank is somehow much more impressive than watching nuke go off?

I dunno dude. Setting off a fission bomb is probably heaps easier than getting a BattleMech to trot around without falling over like a distracted toddler.

[FOG3]

The last time this came up a year ago, someone brought up different models of Merkava with a 105 mm gun and I don't see why that explanation couldn't work.

You and your highly selective reading comprehension. Actually it was pointed out that the publishing date on said Tech MAnual was very close to when the Merkava Mk 2 came out and thus the liklihood the actual writers were aware that the series would continue as Mk# when the piece of fluff was written is extremely remote. So it was almost guranteed referred to a Merkava Mk 1, which at the time would have just been called a Merkava. Both the Mk1 and Mk 1 use 105mm cannons and 60mm Mortars, so it doesn't matter that much. Of course that didn't stop you and company from from pretending it absolutely had to be a Merkava Mk 4 or Mk 5000 that the writers would have needed a Crystal ball to be aware of.

Your selective memory also seems to have let you ignore that the penetration figure given by the Sensor Tech were inferior to the known capabilities of a 105mm cannon at the time of the Merkava Mk1's introduction, but consistant with a 60mm HEAT round. Lets just ignore that at the given age the main gun system would probably of broken outright if one tried to fire it with full power ammo. But hey let's not let mere facts and logical analysis get in the way of BT RULEZ.

I don't particularly believe there has to be a vast conspiracy to uprate the power of mechs, and the test doesn't have to be rigged.

The scenario was inherently rigged just like the openning of MADOX. Should we then conclude that the MADOX could fly around blasting away modern MBTs with impunity then, despite Killgore's ability to scrap it with near impunity with a airborne tank?

It doesn't even have to be fake. Saddam's Republican Guard showed what happens if tanks aren't properly maintained.

T-72s are T-72s are T-72s, good maintenance, bad maintenance whatever they can be killed with a properly used Ma Deuce to the fuel tanks for crying out loud. Where does maintenance come into play with Iraq? Nevermind how you get off pretending the centuries old rust buckets they used against the Mackie were in anywhere near pristine condition?

[fusion]

The other fishy thing about this test is that the tanks were remote control while the mechs were not...
Of course it does not matter...

[VF5SS]

Clearly FASA had been working with Star Trek too much and decided to eschew a simple narrative of "tanks shot the robot, the robot didn't die, and then shot the tanks" for retarded technobabble.