The Destruction Of Orilla commented (SG1 Unending Spoilers)

[Murazor]

I have recently seen a interesting video (Death Of The Asgard) about the beginning of Unending, the SG1 series finale, and have found some interesting things that I would like to comment in this thread.

Explosion Of Orilla:

Although a Youtube vid is not quite the best source for this kind of calculation, I have a few observations about the explosion sequence. First, around 3:17 begins a chain of half a dozen surface explosions (multi-TT to multi-PT considering their apparent size) that end around 3:19 with the planet turned into a glowing fireball that still retains its basic shape and size.

Then, there is a big detonation and at 3:20 we have a glowing fireball that appears to be slightly smaller than the original planet, a dust cloud that is roughly 1.8 times wider than Orilla pre-explosion and one stupid Alderaan style ring structure that has a diameter three times bigger than the planet's.

At 3:21 the ring now has a radius of three planetary diameters, although the dust cloud has grown only slightly. Then, we have a second violent explosion that apparently completes the planetary destruction event with the apparition of a number of large (continent-sized) fragmets of the planet. At 3:22, this debris field is roughly two planetary diameters wide.

This can be used to calculate a rough estimation of the energy level involved in the destruction of Orilla. The DS style ring created in the initial explosion moves outwards with an speed of roughly 15,000-20,000 km/s, whereas the debris field resulting from the second explosion appears to move at roughly 3,000-5,000 km/s.

From the first figure, we can derive that the highest possible figure for the entire event (supposing that Orilla is Earth-like in mass) is around 1.7E39 Joules. Using the more conservative (and sensible) second speed, suggests a figure around 5E37 Joules. Not quite Alderaan, but that is still one hell of a bang.

The Odyssey was already being hit by the shockwave in 3:23, but by 3:27 it had already passed. This means that something (probably the "ring" wave resulting from the first explosion) hit the Prometheus within ten seconds of the planet going boom.

Considering the known speed of the planar ring, that means that the Prometheus was less than 200,000 km away from Orilla when it exploded. Using the energy figures calculated above the energy intensity at such a distance would be roughly of 2E25 joules per square kilometer (for 1E37 joules).

Of course, the Odyssey was running away from the planet like a bat out of hell, so it might have actually outrun the shockwave of the secoundary explosion (debris field), but it was most certainly hit by the initial shockwave (ring structure) and the lightspeed component of the explosion (that must have been rather significative, considering that is around a million times bigger than a star going nova).

Unfortunately, this event cannot be used to calculate truly reliable shield figures... but the fact that both the Odyssey with a ZPM and Asgard upgrades and a Ori mothership survived the explosion suggests that shield power for both spaceships is likely to be beyond the range of 1E20 watts. Anything less and they would have been reduced to cosmic dust.

Daedalus Max Acceleration:

This scene can also be used to calculate the max linear acceleration of a ZPMed Odyssey and an Orii mothership (they appear to be similar with the Ori ship keeping pace, but not outrunning the smaller Earth vessel). In 2:48 Gen Landry orders that the ship leave a close planetary orbit at full sublight speed.

At 3:19, both the Odyssey and the Ori ship leave the field of vision at a point that appears to be roughly 30,000 km away from Orilla (calculated using the speed of the planar structure). This suggests linear acceleration figures for both ships that go from 4,000 g minimum to 12,000 g maximum.

Considering that Earth does not appear to use mass lightening systems in its ships, unlike the Goa'uld, this would suggest that the Odyssey was generating a power output of 1E13-3E13 watts/kilogram in this particular scene.

[Xon]

Inertia manipulation is used by both the Goa'uld and Earth. The Goa'uld version can directly convert energy from the reactors into vectored momentum.

There is no mass-lighting is involved, but serious fuckery with conversation of momentum. At the end of the day, they still pay the energy cost for going fast. Which explains why everyone fights at distinctly slow velocities despite having acceleration figurs in the 10ks gee range(Deathgliders, Hataks, and even puddlejumpers have been calced +- 3k gees of that figure!) and uses hyperspace even for short trips.

[NecronLord]

The Tok'ra, they of the 'we have no military resources' have a magic chain reaction device capable of blowing apart moons with near Earth mas. The Tok'ra planet buster fits in a suitcase. That the Asgard can explode a planet isn't exactly impressive, in light of that. What's more there is no evidence that the explosion there actually exceeds gravitational binding energy. Given that the explosion creates a huge and visible gas cloud, I expect that it does not.

[Murazor]

The Tok'ra, they of the 'we have no military resources' have a magic chain reaction device capable of blowing apart moons with near Earth mas. The Tok'ra planet buster fits in a suitcase.

I am perfectly aware of this. Although the Goa'uld, oddly enough, have never displayed anything like the Tok'ra bomb and I have long had a pet theory about this planet-killer device being an off-shot of their tunneling crystal tech that, IIRC, has been connected with the Ancients at some points.

That the Asgard can explode a planet isn't exactly impressive, in light of that. What's more there is no evidence that the explosion there actually exceeds gravitational binding energy. Given that the explosion creates a huge and visible gas cloud, I expect that it does not.

I would say that the enormous debris fields resulting from the secondary explosion, with individual pieces the size of large countries, moving away from the former location of Orilla at speeds that are at least two hundred times above escape velocity for an Earth-like planet is rather good evidence for this event overcoming GBE.

And while we can't prove one way or the other what the Asgard used (DET should be possible, considering that they apparently have ZPM levels of power generation, although the fact that there are two different explosions is fishy), the point of this thread was not about Asgard power technology. Rather it is guesswork about shield strengths and acceleration power.

Do you find anything faulty in my reasoning?

[NecronLord]

I am perfectly aware of this. Although the Goa'uld, oddly enough, have never displayed anything like the Tok'ra bomb and I have long had a pet theory about this planet-killer device being an off-shot of their tunneling crystal tech that, IIRC, has been connected with the Ancients at some points.

The Tok'ra crystals are identified as being derived from the knowledge of the Ancients in the SG-RPG. Of course, that same RPG has system lords inducing novae by loading up motherships with Naquadah and flying them into the sun, and Anubis' ship outright destroying planets. It is not a very canonical source.

The goa'uld have never been in a situation where they would logically use such a device, anyway.

I would say that the enormous

They're not 'enormous' - the vast majority of the planet appears to be the vapour cloud, which isn't going especially quickly, expanding at roughly the same rate as the rest of the debris field, and appearing to be slowing down, moving more slowly after the second explosion than the first.

(DET should be possible, considering that they apparently have ZPM levels of power generation,

ZPM upper limit power output is 8 Mt/second. In fact, it's about certain that a ha'tak's reactors can generate more power, simply because they can make a ha'tak, which is hardly small, considerably more voluminous and denser than Atlantis, lift off. You're thinking of the ZPM's potential explosive power, which is another kettle of fish entirely. ZPMs are impressive because of their small size (a power density far in advance of what everyone save the Ori and the Asuryans are using), long lifespan, lack of fuel requirements, and explosive power if destroyed.

although the fact that there are two different explosions is fishy),

Let alone the planar ring of doooom.

[Murazor]

The goa'uld have never been in a situation where they would logically use such a device, anyway.

Anubis, when he was in full "fuck-the-Asgard" mode could have used deploying one of these against Earth. Would have been cheaper than that ginormous naquadah asteroid.

They're not 'enormous' - the vast majority of the planet appears to be the vapour cloud, which isn't going especially quickly, expanding at roughly the same rate as the rest of the debris field, and appearing to be slowing down, moving more slowly after the second explosion than the first.

Everything is relative. A country-sized rock is rather enormous for my tastes and there are a lot of those in the scene.

ZPM upper limit power output is 8 Mt/second. In fact, it's about certain that a ha'tak's reactors can generate more power, simply because they can make a ha'tak, which is hardly small, considerably more voluminous and denser than Atlantis, lift off. You're thinking of the ZPM's potential explosive power, which is another kettle of fish entirely. ZPMs are impressive because of their small size (a power density far in advance of what everyone save the Ori and the Asuryans are using), long lifespan, lack of fuel requirements, and explosive power if destroyed.

The eight megatons/sec thing comes from those "Lifting Atlantis" calcs of yours. Could you give me a link, please? I have forgotten and I would like to read them again.

[/quote]Let alone the planar ring of doooom.[/quote]

The planar ring appears in virtually every planetary explosion since the days of "A New Hope", from Alderaan to Praxis. They are a brainbug, but we can't state that this must be a chain reaction because of the planar ring. If anything, the secondary explosion is vastly more suspicious.

[Gustav32Vasa]

How about the second explosion comes from the Ori ships?

[NecronLord]

Anubis, when he was in full "fuck-the-Asgard" mode could have used deploying one of these against Earth. Would have been cheaper than that ginormous naquadah asteroid.

Except of course, he was out to avoid having it look like he did it. Presumably naquaroids are, if not common, a known phonomenon. It can't just appear on planets, after all. Anubis is a known sadist, even by goa'uld standards. If he had the opportunity to bombard earth, I doubt he'd pass it up for something he doesn't get to enjoy in person.

Everything is relative. A country-sized rock is rather enormous for my tastes and there are a lot of those in the scene.

Yup. But they could just make up the crust. Of course, a tempting idea is to say that the 'rocks' are Orilla's rich deposits of 'Neutronium...'

The eight megatons/sec thing comes from those "Lifting Atlantis" calcs of yours. Could you give me a link, please? I have forgotten and I would like to read them again.

Sure thing. Though actually, the atlantis flight is about 6.7. 8Mt/sec came from someone's estimate of the wraith bombardment, I think.

The planar ring appears in virtually every planetary explosion since the days of "A New Hope", from Alderaan to Praxis. They are a brainbug, but we can't state that this must be a chain reaction because of the planar ring. If anything, the secondary explosion is vastly more suspicious.

I would normally agree that it's just a special effects thing, but more importantly, we've seen one other planetary destruction that's outright stated to be a chain reaction in Stargate, and another that's definately a chain reaction, but is only described as 'destroying' a planet (in Full Circle).

I'm not sure if the explosion of the super-ZPM in Atlantis: Trinity had a planar ring of death. I'll have to rewatch. EDIT: Yup, Trinity has the planar ring of doom, too. Though it's more of a sortof oval explosion of doom.

Also, Praxis is generally taken to be the popular origin of the planar ring of doom. New Hope only gained them in the special edition. The Search for Spock has a more realistic planetary 'splosion.

[NecronLord]

How about the second explosion comes from the Ori ships?

The other two Ori ships appear to survive, in that they later chase the Oddesy. Though one supposes there could be five in the episode...

[Gustav32Vasa]

How about the second explosion comes from the Ori ships?

The other two Ori ships appear to survive, in that they later chase the Oddesy. Though one supposes there could be five in the episode...

I meant that the explosions was perhaps caused by the weapons fire.

[NecronLord]

I meant that the explosions was perhaps caused by the weapons fire.

All those explosions are vastly beyond what the Ori ships are seen to do elsewhere, and I can't see why they'd be toting around Death Star grade firepower without any inkling of such before.