On Sapient Eusocial species

[Zor]

From Heinlein's Bugs in Starship Troopers to the Formics in Ender's Game, Eusocial (hive based) extraterrestial species are a staple of Science Fiction. However, i was wondering on the issue of such creatures. Could a Species of Eusocial beings evolve into sapient creatures capable of devising spacecraft and launching themselves into the stars? If so, how would said creatures evolve and how would civilization evolve for them?

Zor

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Really depends... Most of them hinge on a psychic connection between 'drones'. With a controlling will being circulated either from a queen or a collective guidance.

Honestly, I doubt it's terribly likely. At some point, they'd need to develop tools. Although it's possible, they at least have the complex social interaction part.

Tools are where they fall apart. Although most 'hive minds' are somehow able to modify the drones in various ways, either through magical selective breeding or unknown means of genetic manipulation. They really don't have too many reasons to start developing tools or understanding their surroundings.


Although I forget the title, there was an interesting novel about a wolf-like species that had evolved a form of telekineses. (The human settlers on the world named them Tines.) Four or so would form a pack, with the component wolves adding different things to the collective personality. Wish I could remember more of it, was an interesting little story. [Really that's just to say a few people went beyond the insect hive mind idea a little. Although I'd kinda like to reread it if anyone else remembers it.]

[Starglider]

Really depends... Most of them hinge on a psychic connection between 'drones'.

I don't know what this bizarre affection for 'psychic' connections is, at least when talking about alien species. It invokes bullshit physics for no good reason.

Although I forget the title, there was an interesting novel about a wolf-like species that had evolved a form of telekineses. (The human settlers on the world named them Tines.)

That was 'A Fire Upon The Deep' (Vernor Vinge, excellent book) and they had neither telekinesis nor telepathy. They communicated by ultrasonic 'mind talk' within the pack and dog-like 'interpack talk' between packs.

Wish I could remember more of it, was an interesting little story.

It's a huge epic space opera, though the tines play a relatively small part.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Wish I could remember more of it, was an interesting little story.

It's a huge epic space opera, though the tines play a relatively small part.

Thank you. Like I said, I hardly remember any of it. The Tines were unique enough to stick in my mind for some 8 years now. I knew they had a better explanation that just "They're psychic!"

Also forgot about those two from Schlock, been forever since they actually came up. >_>

Meh, Telekenetic... telepathic... >_< I really should go to sleep.

[Rye]

From Heinlein's Bugs in Starship Troopers to the Formics in Ender's Game, Eusocial (hive based) extraterrestial species are a staple of Science Fiction. However, i was wondering on the issue of such creatures. Could a Species of Eusocial beings evolve into sapient creatures capable of devising spacecraft and launching themselves into the stars? If so, how would said creatures evolve and how would civilization evolve for them?

Zor

They would evolve like other species, if the hive mind incorporated different species, there would be lots of sympathetic evolution on their planet, and perhaps a more natural form of domestication than how we think of it. A means of getting the hive mind would be a parasite or symbiont that shares its life cycle with the various other organisms with some sort of communication organ to serve as a universal translator across the species with the symbiotes as part of their natural life cycle. As a trade off, the symbiont could help with breeding, the evolution of social behaviour in the first place, photosynthesis, eating or disease-prevention, so symbiotically linked species would get naturally selected over ones that don't.

As for evolving into sapient creatures, I don't see why not. You could do it with rival hives on the home planet, with the symbionts attached to species that become more intelligent surviving better against rival hives. Perhaps the symbion could also have some genetic manipulation and memory properties, so those naturally selected against rival hives and predators via intelligent means would retain that information and build upon it within their hive.

As for the sapient creatures discovering fire and the like, they could either do it like we did, with the symbionts playing a minor role, or perhaps the symbionts could be the leaders of the show and generate mutants regularly to see how new traits can be used. One of their useful mutants could secrete a flammable hydrocarbon and a catalyst, that the flint-using intelligent species could light, or maybe the firebug has an electrical synapse that lights the fire. Once they have domesticated fire, it's a case of gradually building knowledge till they can make spacecraft.

[Tasoth]

Easiest way to do it is with pheromones. Not uber-psychic-smell-from-a-world-away type, but more natural ones. Something that the queen pumps through the hive from the birth of her children to their death that makes them unswervingly loyal and want nothing more then to satisfy mummy. The key point is the loyalty and wanted to make the queen happy and not being turned into mindless drones. In addition, said pheromones would not have to be the type that releases the offspring from its grasp the moment they're removed from the flow of them. Something like that could keep up in the system for weeks or months at a time. Even the evolutionary step of making those pheromones addictive to the offspring would ensure that any buggo removed from their supply would strive to get back to them so they can feel happy and complete. Throw that every queen makes a slightly different version and you make poaching drones and warriors extremely hard to do as its not quite what they're used to getting chemical wise.

And of course you could even have 'classes' of this species, smart ones at that. Your drones could be touch, hardy little buggers with either big brute hands, tiny deft hands, median between the two or simply both pairs on different arms. Drones don't even have to be dumb since the chemicals pumped out by the queen would instill the want to make her happy. This would create little guys that would be happy to toil away to complete what the queen needs. Since they're intelligent, selection for innovative, clever and lateral thinking amongst them could be enforced and if you want artisans, even artistic ones. You now have something like a collective of moties without the ubertech they build.

Warriors are simple too. Take the drone phenotype and modify it. Stick some height onto it, add a little more muscle mass and then select for increased hand-eye coordination, cunning, tactical planning, multitasking, better perception and tracking of fast moving objects and 3d spacial relations. You now have a subset of your species that is, while not 'RAR! SUPA WAR BUGS!111!11eleven', they would be rather good at war, flying, driving and many things that would relate to war.

And the queen can even buck the typically greedy bug on a mound of dirt cliche. Assuming she births all these, she'd be huge, but then again it might be an aggregate society(think tau). You could have the queen filled with rather intense motherly instinct. She would then, for all purposes, live for her children and their continued existence. You could even throw in the top members of the drone and warrior groups to act as her council as she probably wouldn't have much understanding of those things unless she's rather old and well learned.

As for the whole telepathy bit, a race with very intelligent members should easily be able to come up with a radio and miniaturize it with enough time. If it's scifi, they can even have receivers and mics implanted somewhere on them.

So there you go, a hive society that works on pheromones.

[Duckie]

The problem with pheromones is that pheromones are limited by the wind and air, and the speed of smell is far slower than the speed of sound.

Which would presumably make any large decision involving many semi-autonomous (they're not all drones, Starship Troopers style, right?) intelligent caste-members a very, very slow process as they all talk together and relay eachother's thoughts.

[Gigaliel]

The problem with pheromones is that pheromones are limited by the wind and air, and the speed of smell is far slower than the speed of sound.

Which would presumably make any large decision involving many semi-autonomous (they're not all drones, Starship Troopers style, right?) intelligent caste-members a very, very slow process as they all talk together and relay eachother's thoughts.

Well, that would depend on the atmosphere. All of Earth's eusocial animals have intensely concentrated 'hives' where the superorganism 'directs' the activities. The various workers/warriors are fairly autonomous if very literal minded.

You could scale up this system with massive mounds of exchanging pheromones with with tendrils of insects sweeping around and fulfilling 'orders' as it were.

Now you can go to ways, either the hives become central and intelligent so
that each 'mound' is basically its body (the tines did something like this) or you could stick with the eusocial ad-hoc structure and have the individual members become intelligent.

That latter would be quite odd as the society would have effectively evolved mind control as the insects would be compelled to perform their assigned tasks for their Hive. The Hive would not be represented as a queen, they don't actually hand out orders. Eusocial societies would be a weird sort of chemical anarchy with everyone doing what they feel compelled to due by chemicals generated by others who made those chemicals because of previous orders, etc. I imagine deviants will be tolerated as they can bring the Hive new technologies, but not too deviant.

This would be the 'hunter-gather' stage. Once they develop agriculture society might become stratified with certain members having access to pheromone pots that they could use to compel people to due as they want. Such hierarchies would allow 'free thought' to contemplate alliances with other cities and such ideas. You can make your analogies with human development from here. I do imagine they would be intensely religious, though. I mean they have voices in their heads telling them to do things since the stone age, they'd probably be a bit loopy.

[Tasoth]

The problem with pheromones is that pheromones are limited by the wind and air, and the speed of smell is far slower than the speed of sound.

Which would presumably make any large decision involving many semi-autonomous (they're not all drones, Starship Troopers style, right?) intelligent caste-members a very, very slow process as they all talk together and relay eachother's thoughts.

There's also the fact that an advance species would be able to build some kind of fan system to blow it around a hive. Assuming they live in a mass colony or spaceship, you have an enclosed space in which it would linger about. Of course, you're also assuming that the queen won't be calling shots herself, which is the basic gist of it with a handful of her more experience members of the warrior/drone/'x' class giving her tips. There's also them using some form of radio communications to help deliver the verbal communication better. Hell, the queen could even assign 'ranks' to members who distinguish themselves and place them in charge of certain groups, setting up a functional administration in which she gives out a specific order to a certain group and then it trickles down, the finer details resolving with each level it is sent to.

[Tasoth]

Idiot Edit: The pheromones are just the queen's means enforcing her control and general civility amongst her brood.