Empire -v- Landsrad ALL OUT GROUND WAR

[DocHorror]

Fair enough, I can agree with Paul not being able to do anything due to the sheer size of the Empire.

Though I am interested in the Jedis combat prescience, by that I mean Lightsaber duels, handguns, etc. If a Jedi is destined to die at a certain point (by the will of the force or whatnot), can they 'put off' this death with the aid of prescience or does it just fail them totally & they are left blind...

[omegaLancer]

Darth Pounder Excuse meeee!. Let see The last Novel in the Dune Serie I read was about 15 years ago. As for the Prescience thing. Let see. But a user of the Force and a user of the spice can see the future, the exact mechanism is not clear, but the results are the same.

Since Paul and his sister ablities were not only Block by the Prescience of a Navigator, but by the use of a mere deck of Tarot cards ( Go back and read Childern of Dune) by their subjects, one must conclude that it is not a spice reaction, but something dealing with the act of fortelling( some metaphysical reaction) that causes the future to be cloudy to their foresight, and that any kind of foretelling of the future would result in Paul abilities being negated in this area.

The usage of these cards effect their abilities, so much so that in "Childern of Dune", Paul's sister and childern had to turn to the Genetic memories they possess to attempt over come their enemies.

The main problem is not the nature of Paul power that made him emperor but the fact that Fremen supplied him with an army that could match and exceed the forces of his enemies and allow him to take control of the supply of spice.

The Great worms were a menace only due to the fact that they were immune to the effects of Lasguns ( God Emperor of Dune), we see in "god Emperor of Dune" that the Emperor Worm body was barily harmed by a lasgun. compare this to thermal Detonator.

The heart of a thermal detonator's explosive power is the compact sphere of volatile baradium found inside a thermite shell. Once the thumb trigger is activated, the baradium enters a state of fusion reaction that creates an expandable particle field capable of disintegrating everything within a 20-meter blast radius. The detonator is typically set on a timer, since the explosive radius is quite large and represents an extreme hazard to the weapon's bearer.

So the trick of having a great worm swallowing a Droid carrying one would result in a dead sand worm, for i doubt it can survive a with a 40 meter hole in gut. Hell just lob one at a sand worm.

Better yet just soak one with a few gallons of water, since water is a poison to Sand worms.

Worms are a poor subsititue for Mechanize forces, especially in the light that they can only surivive on one planet in the whole Galaxy.

A planet who worth to the SW empire would be nothing, and once the Empire learn of how vital it was to the Dune Empire they BDZ the planet.

[Frank Hipper]

A 40 meter hole would not kill a sandworm, The only stated ways to kill one are to apply massive electric shock to each segment, water, nuclear weapons, or another sandworm.

[Ghost Rider]

With the whole presentient thought I believe Yoda says it best.

"Always in motion is the future."

They can probably get a good idea but as shown time and time again they really don't know what truly lies ahead and just prepare for the best.

For Combat I'd assume the way they handle it's more akin to split second reactions, instead of any long term consequences.

[Frank Hipper]

A 40 meter hole would not kill a sandworm, The only stated ways to kill one are to apply massive electric shock to each segment, water, nuclear weapons, or another sandworm.
Each intact segment regenerates into another critter, IIRC.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually the other segement just gets replaced.

A 40 meter hole isn't much to a sandworm...water on the other hand

so yeah FH is pretty much on spot about what would kill a sandworm...it takes a lot of firepower...or a good water hose.

[omegaLancer]

We are talking about a 40 meter diameter sphere, not just a hole. If a worm is 100 meter long, how wide is it?. If it less than 40 meters, than it cut in half....


Remember a thermal detonater is really a minature H-Bomb...

[Darth Wong]

Turbolaser strike will annihilate a sandworm pretty easily, without having to go anywhere near full power. Kiloton-range should do the trick easily. Seismic charge should also do it, since it would slice through the worm's entire body without difficulty.

Another, potentially more amusing way to kill a sandworm would be to use an orbiting freighter to tractor it up to about 10 km off the ground, and then drop it. SW freighters can drain a world of its oceans (see Gholondreine-Beta), so they obviously have the power to lift an overgrown earthworm.

[Ghost Rider]

Hell Dune has that ability(not to discount it...but given that Vader only requested 300 ships for the Death Star II project in SoE...those ships are immense in saying the least) and heck the Worm is then vulnerable of losing it's food supply.

As bad ass and big it looks the worm is actually quite vulnerable to quite a few things...somehow seeing them spray Arrakis with watr brings a chuckle to my mind.

And yeah Seismic charge level any battle field...literally.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well saying as how a worm wouldn't be seen above ground till it was really close and by then megaton weapons would harm the Shooters as well as the worm that point may be moot also Worms have a known tendancy to rise up from underneath an annoyance to it therefore unless the Imperial forces know abotu worm sign they will be too late to react.

And as far as your concerend Lancer, a worm is hundreds of meters long and it's mough is armoured, Do you really think that a an imperial explosives team would have time to fuck arrounf in the middle of a fire fight? We asume it'll be fought in Dune coz i started the thread and I say so.

Do you know what combat engineers are and do?

Do you have proof that the worm's armor could withstand hundreds of megatons of firepower or even kiloton level blasts as found on AT-AT's and star fighters? Do we have any reason to think they can? The answers to both are no and no.

That doesn't even matter though. Even if a sandworm can keep going after being hit by turbolaser the Empire can just drown them

The Empire drained the oceans of Gholondreine and hauled them off. They can do the reverse and flood the areas of Arakkis they wish to capture. Though in reality they'd just burn the planet.

[Darth Wong]

Burning off Arrakis would be the smart move. This would annihilate the entire Duniverse infrastructure in one fell swoop, thus giving the Empire monopoly over interstellar travel.

[Sea Skimmer]

Burning off Arrakis would be the smart move. This would annihilate the entire Duniverse infrastructure in one fell swoop, thus giving the Empire monopoly over interstellar travel.

Destruction by flooding has a far greater level of irony though.

[Frank Hipper]

We are talking about a 40 meter diameter sphere, not just a hole. If a worm is 100 meter long, how wide is it?. If it less than 40 meters, than it cut in half....


Remember a thermal detonater is really a minature H-Bomb...

400 meters long for the big ones, actually.

[omegaLancer]

Still 400 meter long by what diameter. even if it 1/10 as wide as long that 40 meter right there, cutting the worm in two. Which got to hurt....

[omegaLancer]

Well if you really want to solve the worm problem, prep the battle field by droping a comet onto the area, when it strike you going to get a whole lot of water, that plus the impact should clear the area of Sand worm...

[white_rabbit]

Burning off Arrakis would be the smart move. This would annihilate the entire Duniverse infrastructure in one fell swoop, thus giving the Empire monopoly over interstellar travel.

To make sure they should vape IX as well.

[white_rabbit]

And kill off the Bene Teliex(fuck, cant remember spelling) and slaughter the Bene Gesserit as well....which would be very satisfying to see.

[Lord Pounder]

Ok then i concede the debate. I'm no troll and i know when i have been proven wrong.

But one last point Omega Lancer, Alia never had presience abilities coz she was Abomination and she was blocked. Only Paul and Leto II ever had prescience. I know this coz i am currently re-reading the Children of Dune at the moment.

[Typhonis 1]

No just BDZ Arrakis then all the others become irrelevant when the spice runs out

[Typhonis 1]

You are also forgetting that all the people in power are addicted to spice in one way or another and Spice withdrawl fatal I think

[Pu-239]

Hey this is ground war only people. No BDZ, no flooding, no space based turbolasers.

[omegaLancer]

Hey who need space base weapon, The wide range of Weapons available to SW Ground forces would burn the surface of Dune to glass. Remember the limiting factor to forces battling for the planet was the destruction of the spice.

The Empire has no limitation, they can unlease their heavy weapons, everything from Turbo laser batteries ( they have a model that actually is suspended via repulsor fields) to concussion missiles. who care if the planet is reduce to a sterile ball of glass.

Dune armies had no ground vehicles ( other than water craft) they depended on air craft and space fighters, other than that it was infantry..

Atomics could be use ( the Stone burner is perfect example) so unless the thread forbid their use, the planet is toast after a major battle either way. The empire wins either way.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hey this is ground war only people. No BDZ, no flooding, no space based turbolasers.

The Empire practices combined armies and its forces are integrated, removing orbital space support is just stupid for a war that's suppose to be on multiple planets. How the fuck are both sides support to move troops to fight!?

Anyway, the Empire has more then enough ground firepower in its walkers, tanks and artillery to kill the worms, and mere infantry would rout Dune troops. There atmospheric speeders and ground launched TIE's would further the slaughter.

People claim you don't know about worms until they attack from underneath. Yet in the Book dune one is spotted on the move miles from its target. A strafing pass with kiloton level fighter weapons on the sand would cut it to ribbons.

[Darth Wong]

Hey this is ground war only people. No BDZ, no flooding, no space based turbolasers.

Imperial ground forces have dedicated air support and they deploy from transports which easily carry enough firepower to annihilate all resistance. Separating them from their air support and transports is like removing a modern army's helicopters.

If the Empire dropped many divisions of ground troops onto Arrakis, they would bring Acclamators and LAAT air support. That alone would be enough to annihilate all resistance. Even if they want to go easy, they would be well advised to cruise over the deserts, use look-down infrared, life-sign detectors, or even seismic vibration sensors to pick up the sandworms, and then annihilate them piecemeal. No sandworms, no spice. It may not be certain that a sandworm can survive a thermal detonator, but it sure as hell won't survive max-yield LAAT missiles, never mind Acclamator turbolasers.