Why did the Shadows bring their planetkiller to Coriana 6?

[Target2006]

I'm not sure if this has been answered before, but its something that has always bugged me about Babylon 5. Why exactly did the Shadows bring their deathcloud to the battle of Coriana 6? The Shadows were only going after what they thought was an AOL base. They didn't need to bring the deathcloud along for destroying that at all. Unless Sheridan's trick was to say that the base was the entire planet. I guess the deathcloud is useful for a space battle, but a bit wasteful.

It seems like JMS needed the deathcloud there to shut down all the ships engines and block the AOL escape later, but he deosn't set up it's presence at the battle beforehand properly. It just appears with the Shadow fleet.

[Anguirus]

Why would the Shadow fleet not bring along their planet-killer to attack an enemy base of unknown size and strength?

As you yourself point out, it's their best strategic weapon, capable of instapwning a whole fleet. Are they just going to leave it at home because it's overkill, despite committing the bulk of their other forces?

The real problem with the battle of Coriana 6 is that it's horribly contrived and makes the Shadows look like dumbasses and the Army of Light look like morons who get their plan to work by sheer luck. But once you get past the lame set-up, I don't see the problem with each side throwing in their planet-killers.

[Target2006]

From the tactical viewpoint, the Shadows bringing along a useful ship like that makes sense. But the use of a "planet-killer" to engage fleets annoys me for some reason. Why did they not use it before in the "Shadow Dancing" battle? I know that they thought they were only going to fight refugees in that fight, but even still, why not bring it along if it prevents ships from getting away? Unless they were worried about provoking the Vorlons.

But you are right, the set-up to the Coriana 6 fight is awfully contrived. The Vorlons and Shadows arrive at exactly the same time, so neither side pounds the AOL before the other arrives? How convenient.

[Anguirus]

Why did they not use it before in the "Shadow Dancing" battle?

Because the Vorlons hadn't upped the ante yet.

Unless they were worried about provoking the Vorlons.

Got it in one. Remember, the whole plot of the Shadow War winds up revolving around these rules of engagement both sides are using to deal with each other. When Sheridan nukes Z'ha'dum, the Vorlons decide that MAD doesn't apply anymore and start trying to utterly wipe out Shadow influence with their Planet Killers. The Shadows are spooked out of laying low (they were licking their wounds after Sheridan) and bust out the Death Cloud (Vir later discovers in the novels that they had three or four more under construction, and manages to destroy all but one that the Drakh later use to attack Earth). And then both sides pussyfoot around, not attacking each other directly until Sheridan tricks the Shadows into showing up at the site of an imminent Vorlon attack.

[fusion]

Unless they were worried about provoking the Vorlons.

Got it in one. Remember, the whole plot of the Shadow War winds up revolving around these rules of engagement both sides are using to deal with each other. When Sheridan nukes Z'ha'dum, the Vorlons decide that MAD doesn't apply anymore and start trying to utterly wipe out Shadow influence with their Planet Killers. The Shadows are spooked out of laying low (they were licking their wounds after Sheridan) and bust out the Death Cloud (Vir later discovers in the novels that they had three or four more under construction, and manages to destroy all but one that the Drakh later use to attack Earth). And then both sides pussyfoot around, not attacking each other directly until Sheridan tricks the Shadows into showing up at the site of an imminent Vorlon attack.

So basically a cold war? Right?

[Anguirus]

^ I suppose it'd be a bit like the USA dropping an ICBM on Hanoi during Vietnam, and the Soviets nuking Tokyo in retaliation, and so on blasting everything except each other so that the winner can go "neener neener" to the loser but the loser is still alive to be mocked.

Only replace USA and USSR with allegedly superior, "trancedent" beings.

[Typhonis 1]

Reason they didn`t target each other? You can`t rub a victory into your foes face if he is dead.

[Nephtys]

My interpretation of the B5 war was that the Vorlons, having won a thousand years ago militarily with the Minbari, had basically confined the shadows to their home planet.

The shadows saved some caches of warships elsewhere, and it mostly became an ideological debate. The Vorlons were depicted as having pretty big egos, so it was a game of 'Hey, let's see who was really doctrinally correct by manipulating the younger races, who have equal footing, do fight it out'.

The shadows did their best in the war to win, with minimal direct assaulting, and mostly puppetry, while the Vorlons tried to influence alliances and such to stop it. But once Sheridan got the Army of Light working, and bombed Za'ha'dum, the Vorlons figured they won the argument, and would now finish their feud by wiping out the Shadows. While the Shadows then figured they had nothing left to lose, and threw everything to hold off the Vorlons. Etc.

It would seem that the shadow clouds were deployed from desperation.

[Lost Soal]

The shadows saved some caches of warships elsewhere, and it mostly became an ideological debate. The Vorlons were depicted as having pretty big egos, so it was a game of 'Hey, let's see who was really doctrinally correct by manipulating the younger races, who have equal footing, do fight it out'.

It was always ideological, from the very first war to the very last. They couldn't agree who's philosophy was better so they decided to fight it out using surrogates.

[Nephtys]

The shadows saved some caches of warships elsewhere, and it mostly became an ideological debate. The Vorlons were depicted as having pretty big egos, so it was a game of 'Hey, let's see who was really doctrinally correct by manipulating the younger races, who have equal footing, do fight it out'.

It was always ideological, from the very first war to the very last. They couldn't agree who's philosophy was better so they decided to fight it out using surrogates.

Yeah, but I was under the impression that it was that way, by the Vorlon's consent. Because they could have militarily exterminated the Shadows a thousand years ago, but let them stick around so they could have this argument. And it's why when they 'won' the argument by their view, they went in guns blazing to blow up any shadow-influenced planets.

[Anguirus]

the Vorlons figured they won the argument, and would now finish their feud by wiping out the Shadows. While the Shadows then figured they had nothing left to lose, and threw everything to hold off the Vorlons.

This is totally contradicted by "Into the Fire" and the lead-up episodes, unfortunately, because the Vorlons and the Shadows still avoid engaging each other until Sheridan tricks them into showing up at the same solar system.

If the Vorlons decided to wipe out the Shadows, they would have destroyed Z'ha'dum...as Sheridan rightly points out.

You are right in that it was the Vorlons who escalated, of course, leading the Shadows to deploy the Death Cloud. But both sides were still targeting the others' proxies even at this late stage.

[Uraniun235]

But it wasn't a wholly surrogate war. In fact so much of the action was done by the Shadows - it was Morden's "associates" who destroyed EarthForce One, it was Shadow vessels that sliced up Narn outposts and a big chunk of their fleet, it was Shadow vessels marauding throughout Non-Aligned space.

And the Vorlons are all "well shit this isn't our war you guys have to take on the million-year old dudes have fun with that", and then they get pissy when someone actually expects them to be half as involved as the Shadows were.

Because they could have militarily exterminated the Shadows a thousand years ago, but let them stick around so they could have this argument. And it's why when they 'won' the argument by their view, they went in guns blazing to blow up any shadow-influenced planets.

How does the alternate 1985... er... the alternate future play into this? The one where the Shadows still wait a thousand years to come back, but this time they're actually boarding B5 and crap like that.

[Anguirus]

And the Vorlons are all "well shit this isn't our war you guys have to take on the million-year old dudes have fun with that", and then they get pissy when someone actually expects them to be half as involved as the Shadows were.

Well, who exactly are the Vorlons going to attack? The Centauri? Earth? The Vorlons played their hand--spending a thousand years buttering up the Minbari and having a direct hand in the destiny of Sinclair/Valen. The Shadows played theirs...sudden, vicious attacks designed to spread chaos. The Vorlons are all about planning, and the Shadows are all about, well, random killing, pretty much.

Since everybody else is an "inferior race," then from the Shadows' perspective it's the Vorlons who are the aggressors. Kosh convinced enough Vorlons to join his faction that he managed to get an attack launched directly onto a Shadow fleet...Kosh did this because he's apparently the only First One that gives a shit about the lives of any lesser individuals. He "broke the rules" so the Shadows shanked him...then they called it even again and wouldn't attack each other directly until Coriana. Then they each thought the other broke the rules and started murdering each other until the other First Ones crashed the party and they realized they'd been had.

[Uraniun235]

You seem to contradict yourself when earlier you said:

But both sides were still targeting the others' proxies even at this late stage.

So who were the Vorlons targeting, before the Shadows themselves?

The Vorlons played their hand--spending a thousand years buttering up the Minbari and having a direct hand in the destiny of Sinclair/Valen. The Shadows played theirs...sudden, vicious attacks designed to spread chaos. The Vorlons are all about planning, and the Shadows are all about, well, random killing, pretty much.

So what was the post-Babylon 4 Vorlon plan? Because as far as I can tell it was "sit back and let the 'good younger races' get curbstomped by Shadow fleets". The entire allied combined fleet scored a handful of kills at terrible loss to themselves, and the Younger Races would never - not with their level of technology, at least - been able to effect a serious campaign against the Shadows.

[Uraniun235]

I meant to ask, "what's the post-B4 plan before Sheridan yelled at Kosh? Or rather, what would the post-B4 Vorlon plan have been had Sheridan not goaded Kosh into action?"

[Anguirus]

So who were the Vorlons targeting, before the Shadows themselves?

The Vorlon fleet in Season 4 was going after young-race worlds "touched by Shadows." They must have killed actual Shadows here and there but they were intentionally avoiding a confrontation with a Shadow fleet (presumably so they could have some sort of deniability).

Or rather, what would the post-B4 Vorlon plan have been had Sheridan not goaded Kosh into action?"

It seems as if the Vorlons were perfectly happy to let the younger races do the fighting. In "Shadow Dancing" the Army of Light managed to kill one Shadow ship for every two of theirs. From the Vorlon perspective this is great because no Vorlons die, the Shadows still have a relatively small number of ships because the Vorlon B4 plot worked out, and the younger races are proving that a united front can prevail. They don't care that a shit-ton of people die as long as they prove that the young races can organize and kill Shadows. If the Shadows had retaliated with a Death Cloud attack or massive attacks on homeworlds, the Vorlons had their huge military in reserve to respond.

[Vendetta]

So what was the post-Babylon 4 Vorlon plan? Because as far as I can tell it was "sit back and let the 'good younger races' get curbstomped by Shadow fleets". The entire allied combined fleet scored a handful of kills at terrible loss to themselves, and the Younger Races would never - not with their level of technology, at least - been able to effect a serious campaign against the Shadows.

Carry on the ideological war. The whole point of the war between the Vorlons and Shadows wasn't really to defeat the other side, it was to demonstrate the superiority of their philosophy, using the younger races as tools.

Without the direct strike at Z'ha'dum, the Shadows would probably have been content to smash the alliance and let the younger races fight among themselves, they never would have brought out the overwhelming force like the planet killer, just destroyed B5 itself and let their behind the scenes people on Earth pull humans out of the alliance, letting it fall apart as the Minbari are basically left as the only major player, and they have their own internal problems. That would have proven them "right", the remaining races would have been "stronger".

[NecronLord]

In answer to the OP's question, I just assumed that the planet killer was part of the fleet they had in the area.